What's going on over there??? - See mod warning post 194 BEFORE posting!

El_Duderino 09

Ellie Slimy Puddle wrote: »

So you think that getting stuck in an air vent, food fights in restaurants and turning hostels upside down is all part and parcel of getting out and about?

Do you think this is acceptable behavior?

Why are posters on this thread making excuses for bad behavior?

Explaining and excusing are not the same thing.

Saying Something is likely to happen is not the same as saying it should happen.

You're not accepting explanations of the behaviour. So what do you think is going on OP?

aido79

Ellie Slimy Puddle wrote: »

So you think that getting stuck in an air vent, food fights in restaurants and turning hostels upside down is all part and parcel of getting out and about?

Do you think this is acceptable behavior?

Why are posters on this thread making excuses for bad behavior?

I never said it was acceptable behavior. I was implying that people do stupid things when alcohol is consumed regardless of nationality or location. Your attitude seems to be that these idiots are in the majority rather than the minority amongst the Irish over here. The Irish media likes to dramatise it and make it sound worse than it is and you are one of the people who falls for the hype.

v638sg7k1a92bx

aido79 wrote: »

I never said it was acceptable behavior. I was implying that people do stupid things when alcohol is consumed regardless of nationality or location. Your attitude seems to be that these idiots are in the majority rather than the minority amongst the Irish over here. The Irish media likes to dramatise it and make it sound worse than it is and you are one of the people who falls for the hype.

So what has any of that got to do with whether I have ever been in Temple Bar or on a night out in any town in Ireland?

v638sg7k1a92bx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Explaining and excusing are not the same thing.

Saying Something is likely to happen is not the same as saying it should happen.

You're not accepting explanations of the behaviour. So what do you think is going on OP?

I think you are confusing an explanation with an excuse. An explanation is highlighting a fact whereas an excuse is a justification of that fact. What happened on this forum is as follows:

OP: Some Irish people are behaving badly in Australia which is being highlighted in the media and Australian courts

Posters: They're young and abroad and therefore more likely to be more vulnerable meaning they're behaviour is actually a cry for help, something something. You don't know what you're talking about, have you ever been on a night out in Temple Bar?

aido79

Ellie Slimy Puddle wrote: »

So what has any of that got to do with whether I have ever been in Temple Bar or on a night out in any town in Ireland?

Ok I'll try a different approach...but you seem to have formed your own opinion so don't think it matters what me or anyone else on here says. Young people, both those abroad and those in Ireland, do stupid things when they are drinking. If this had've happened in Ireland it probably wouldn't have got the same publicity. Most Australians wouldn't even have heard about this story but the Irish media and Facebook highlight this kind of thing and make it sound worse than it is.

v638sg7k1a92bx

aido79 wrote: »

Ok I'll try a different approach...but you seem to have formed your own opinion so don't think it matters what me or anyone else on here says. Young people, both those abroad and those in Ireland, do stupid things when they are drinking. If this had've happened in Ireland it probably wouldn't have got the same publicity. Most Australians wouldn't even have heard about this story but the Irish media and Facebook highlight this kind of thing and make it sound worse than it is.

The means of reportage is irrelevant, we can only base our opinions on what the courts decide.

Why do you consider alcohol to be a mitigating factor for accepting responsibility? If a woman robbed a bank or a man beats up his wife while drunk should they receive a reduced sentence?

aido79

Ellie Slimy Puddle wrote: »

The means of reportage is irrelevant, we can only base our opinions on what the courts decide.

Why do you consider alcohol to be a mitigating factor for accepting responsibility? If a woman robbed a bank or a man beats up his wife while drunk should they receive a reduced sentence?

I give up..anyone else want to try?:-P

El_Duderino 09

Ellie Slimy Puddle wrote: »

I think you are confusing an explanation with an excuse. An explanation is highlighting a fact whereas an excuse is a justification of that fact. What happened on this forum is as follows:

OP: Some Irish people are behaving badly in Australia which is being highlighted in the media and Australian courts

Posters: They're young and abroad and therefore more likely to be more vulnerable meaning they're behaviour is actually a cry for help, something something. You don't know what you're talking about, have you ever been on a night out in Temple Bar?

Has anyone said the part in bold?

If you had read the post you quoted, you would realise this is exactly what I said regarding explanation and excuse.

OP: Some Irish people are behaving badly in Australia which is being highlighted in the media and Australian courts.

My EXPLANATION is that they are young, living far from their traditional authority figures. They are likely to be living with others in similar situations like in a hostel. They are likely to have few, if any, older people in their social group. Nobody to tell them to cop on, stop drinking and go to sleep, no body is worried about their reputation with the locals.

When I was young 13/14 and was acting the moggot someone would say 'I know your mother' (she would be embarrassed if she found out) and that was enough to keep me in line for years.

That does not EXCUSE their behaviour, it only tries to EXPLAIN it.

Those people who did those stupid things will be dealt with under Australian law and rightly so

What exactly is your point? Do you think the Irish are more likely to get involved in that kind of behaviour?

catbear

Plenty of nationalities have their young pups deported, Irish media picks up on the Irish cases.
The locals outshine our best efforts of mayhem and chaos.

v638sg7k1a92bx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Has anyone said the part in bold?

If you had read the post you quoted, you would realise this is exactly what I said regarding explanation and excuse.

OP: Some Irish people are behaving badly in Australia which is being highlighted in the media and Australian courts.

My EXPLANATION is that they are young, living far from their traditional authority figures. They are likely to be living with others in similar situations like in a hostel. They are likely to have few, if any, older people in their social group. Nobody to tell them to cop on, stop drinking and go to sleep, no body is worried about their reputation with the locals.

When I was young 13/14 and was acting the moggot someone would say 'I know your mother' (she would be embarrassed if she found out) and that was enough to keep me in line for years.

That does not EXCUSE their behaviour, it only tries to EXPLAIN it.

Those people who did those stupid things will be dealt with under Australian law and rightly so

What exactly is your point? Do you think the Irish are more likely to get involved in that kind of behaviour?

So the reason is that their mammy isn't there to tell them what to do and make their sandwiches for them? You're making the analogy between your fourteen year old self versus adult men and women backpacking around Australia as some type of explanation???

El_Duderino 09

Your characture of my post suggests you can't fully comprehend it.

I'll hold your hand and connect the dots: traditional means of regulating behaviour such as fear of letting your family down being caught doing something stupid. This leads to regulating behaviour along with a series of other factors. Moving far far away from you family and not having a lot of those social norms/restrictions in place means that people reevaluate and find new social norms

My point is this. If you send a cross section of young people to Australia where they will live in a totally different environment where social norms are set by their peer group, you will end up with something like you have heard about with the Irish.

I'm saying people will do things they wouldn't normally do under those circumstances. I could introduce you to psychological constructs like Invincibility fallacy, Social norms, group think, but I think that would be too subtle for your taste.

Maybe we should just all agree that those Irish getting in trouble are all Scumbags,. Or since you strike me as a tabloid reading chap, "Boozed up Paddys Biff, Bonk and Bash their way through OZ".

Maybe you're not able to hold 2 conflicting thoughts in your mind at once. I can explain their actions, I do not excuse their actions.

What exactly is your point?

v638sg7k1a92bx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Your characture of my post suggests you can't fully comprehend it.

I'll hold your hand and connect the dots: traditional means of regulating behaviour such as fear of letting your family down being caught doing something stupid. This leads to regulating behaviour along with a series of other factors. Moving far far away from you family and not having a lot of those social norms/restrictions in place means that people reevaluate and find new social norms

My point is this. If you send a cross section of young people to Australia where they will live in a totally different environment where social norms are set by their peer group, you will end up with something like you have heard about with the Irish.

I'm saying people will do things they wouldn't normally do under those circumstances. I could introduce you to psychological constructs like Invincibility fallacy, Social norms, group think, but I think that would be too subtle for your taste.

Maybe we should just all agree that those Irish getting in trouble are all Scumbags,. Or since you strike me as a tabloid reading chap, "Boozed up Paddys Biff, Bonk and Bash their way through OZ".

Maybe you're not able to hold 2 conflicting thoughts in your mind at once. I can explain their actions, I do not excuse their actions.

What exactly is your point?

Attack the post not the poster, it's a sign you're losing the rag i.e. hold hand, tabloid reading, conflicting thoughts.

Social norms in Australia and other English speaking countries are the same as Ireland. They are set by that society as a whole and the laws of that country.

Also, what's all this about

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I could introduce you to psychological constructs like Invincibility fallacy, Social norms, group think, but I think that would be too subtle for your taste

are you sure you're in the right thread?

El_Duderino 09

Ellie Slimy Puddle wrote: »

Attack the post not the poster, it's a sign you're losing the rag i.e. hold hand, tabloid reading, conflicting thoughts.

Social norms in Australia and other English speaking countries are the same as Ireland. They are set by that society as a whole and the laws of that country.

Also, what's all this about are you sure you're in the right thread?

Now you're on the right track. Yes social norms are set by the society but as with any group you care to mention they will form their own social norms based on the group. In this case it's a group of

1 young
2 full of p1ss and vinegar
3 hanging out together
4 without the influence of more sensible older people
5 setting their own group social norms

Stupidity ensues. Predictable enough really.

I've asked you in the last few posts what you think about the Irish people doing stupid things in OZ.

So what do you think?

v638sg7k1a92bx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Now you're on the right track. Yes social norms are set by the society but as with any group you care to mention they will form their own social norms based on the group. In this case it's a group of

1 young
2 full of p1ss and vinegar
3 hanging out together
4 without the influence of more sensible older people
5 setting their own group social norms

Stupidity ensues. Predictable enough really.

I've asked you in the last few posts what you think about the Irish people doing stupid things in OZ.

So what do you think?

Just stop, it's run its course.

El_Duderino 09

Ellie Slimy Puddle wrote: »

Just stop, it's run its course.

Okey dokey. You can't appreciate that when circumstances change, outcomes change.

What do you think is the explanation?

AngryHippie

AngryHippie wrote: »

dickheads. There is no shortage of them

I think that should wrap it up.

ambasite

Anti-Irish sentiment in the media, simple.

d.pop

Nothing really new about any of this to be honest. Been going on as long as backpackers have been coming to Oz and by the way as long as Aussies/kiwis/saffies have been going overseas too ! Works both ways.

I came to Oz first in the 90's on a WHV and Sydney was full of drunk Irish lads in their 20's, same pubs as people talk about now, cock and bull, scruffys, the rocks area etc. Think the heat, the money and pretty much 24hr licensing sends people loopers at first.

I saw a lot of idiotic stuff on Saturday nights around the city, not all by Irish by the way....

I do think a few things have changed though, in my opinion only mind...:

The young Irish are much more "confident" now than "my" generation of backpackers was so are not as prepared to "cop" on when told to do so and end up in trouble.

Oz is not as far from Ireland as it used to be ( figuratively speaking ) so lot more people come over now than previous and perhaps a different type of person too that would not have gone too far before.

The internet. It didn't really exist back in the day, do if young Mick got pi**ed and did something dumb it didn't usually make the news outside of oz, now as things trend they get picked up at home and voila headlines...

Of course for every idiot there are hundreds / thousands of good kids out here from every country.

These days I tend to stay away from the usual hotspots on weekends, not because I'm embarrassed by what goes on but because I'm older and don't have the patience or interest anymore to deal with large groups of drunks from any country.

Sad fact of life that the Irish and the British have a big pub and drinking culture and when you mix a load of drink with young lads the consequences are sadly predictable.

The Aussie

ambasite wrote: »

Anti-Irish sentiment in the media, simple.

LOL, simple

TrueDub

Keep it civil folks please - attack the post, not the poster.

El_Duderino 09

d.pop wrote: »

Nothing really new about any of this to be honest. Been going on as long as backpackers have been coming to Oz and by the way as long as Aussies/kiwis/saffies have been going overseas too ! Works both ways.

I came to Oz first in the 90's on a WHV and Sydney was full of drunk Irish lads in their 20's, same pubs as people talk about now, cock and bull, scruffys, the rocks area etc. Think the heat, the money and pretty much 24hr licensing sends people loopers at first.

I saw a lot of idiotic stuff on Saturday nights around the city, not all by Irish by the way....

I do think a few things have changed though, in my opinion only mind...:

The young Irish are much more "confident" now than "my" generation of backpackers was so are not as prepared to "cop" on when told to do so and end up in trouble.

Oz is not as far from Ireland as it used to be ( figuratively speaking ) so lot more people come over now than previous and perhaps a different type of person too that would not have gone too far before.

The internet. It didn't really exist back in the day, do if young Mick got pi**ed and did something dumb it didn't usually make the news outside of oz, now as things trend they get picked up at home and voila headlines...

Of course for every idiot there are hundreds / thousands of good kids out here from every country.

These days I tend to stay away from the usual hotspots on weekends, not because I'm embarrassed by what goes on but because I'm older and don't have the patience or interest anymore to deal with large groups of drunks from any country.

Sad fact of life that the Irish and the British have a big pub and drinking culture and when you mix a load of drink with young lads the consequences are sadly predictable.

I'd have to agree with this d.pop. I spent 3 weeks in the international backpacker hostel in Melbourne, on WHV, before going working on farms.

From then on we tended to only spend a day or two in the Sidney, Brisbane, Cairns, Darwin, Alice Springs. Saw a fair bit of this kind of thing in most backpacker hostels by all nationalities I came across.

The same tools do similar things here and it tends to go unnoticed. I know a guy from home who was a bit of a lad, tended to get drunk and get into fights. He had a go at a bouncer in OZ and spent a short time in prison because over there they don't muck around.

Heads up, the OP isn't interested in this line of discussion. A few posters have tried to explain it but he's not interested. It's more of an out-rage thread (it's a disgrace, Joe) than a discussion thread.

JM Skipton

Ellie Slimy Puddle wrote: »

These news reports are almost on a weekly basis now 'Remarkably stupid' Irishman in Australia became stuck in roof while trying to sneak into nightclub

Speaking to a friend who is Australia the past 4 years, he told me that he's almost embarrassed to be Irish. He said that he's been in restaurants that Irish have started food fights, hostels that have been turned upside down, falling around Sydney like drunken buffoons fighting with one another and then making up five minutes later.

Are the Irish really that bad out there?

While you cannot deny these things happen, I do think the Aussie media are very quick to latch onto the "Irish" aspect of these stories. The old "simple Irish" mentality is alive and well in Australia in 2015. Nearly choked on my nutri grain last week when the weather girl on Sunrise told an Irish joke on air. While aussies etc can get up to similar stuff while over in Europe I am not so sure "Remarkably stupid Australian" would ever be a headline in Ireland or Britain.

William F

ArseBurger wrote: »

I'm embarrassed to be Irish regularly here.

There is a name for your type back home; Castle Catholic, Shoneen, etc. etc.

Every generation has them and yours is no different.

William F

I think this says more about Australian culture than it does Irish.

There are an equal number of Irish in Canada and USA but you rarely hear any hysteria in the media about their shenanigans.

If anything, the Irish drinking culture is celebrated their. I think there was one situation where a couple had sex at the back of a bar during St. Patrick's Day but most people laughed it up.

I think Australians are just uptight and need to unwind a little.

catbear

William F wrote:

I think this says more about Australian culture than it does Irish.

good point. I read somewhere recently that per head Aussies drink more than Irish and British. plus they're the biggest gamblers in the world after Singapore (all those pokies dependent pubs).

Australian culture really does ficus on race for no good reason. after all apartheid was based on Australian practices.

v638sg7k1a92bx

William F wrote: »

I think this says more about Australian culture than it does Irish.

There are an equal number of Irish in Canada and USA but you rarely hear any hysteria in the media about their shenanigans.

If anything, the Irish drinking culture is celebrated their. I think there was one situation where a couple had sex at the back of a bar during St. Patrick's Day but most people laughed it up.

I think Australians are just uptight and need to unwind a little.

Not sure if that's the case, it's easier to get a work visa to Australia than the other two countries at the moment.

v638sg7k1a92bx

catbear wrote: »

good point. I read somewhere recently that per head Aussies drink more than Irish and British. plus they're the biggest gamblers in the world after Singapore (all those pokies dependent pubs).

Australian culture really does ficus on race for no good reason. after all apartheid was based on Australian practices.

Consumption of alcohol is not the issue here. Why are posters trying to justify or explain everything with alcohol consumption?

catbear

Ellie Slimy Puddle wrote:

Consumption of alcohol is not the issue here. Why are posters trying to justify or explain everything with alcohol consumption?

sorry, I should have included roids too!

ArseBurger

William F wrote: »

There is a name for your type back home; Castle Catholic, Shoneen, etc. etc.

Every generation has them and yours is no different.

I am what is generally considered to be a West Brit. And I always have been. I don't take this as an insult. As it was probably intended.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Here we go again. 24 Irish people deported http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/australia-deports-24-irish-people-over-alleged-building-scam-1.2076836

These are turning into weekly incidents. The Irish must have a terrible name in Australia.