Is €3.70 a "reasonable" price for a 500 ml Irish craft beer in an off-licence?

Lovely Bloke

anncoates wrote: »

Presumably they still go to JDW but only check in on Facebook when they're in Against The Grain or the Norseman. :pac:

I do both. :eek:

symbolic

drumswan wrote: »

'Reasonable' is entirely subjective. For the brewer a reasonable price is one they can sell their beer at and turn an acceptable profit.

Yeah, I get what you mean.

But if someone started at thread that said is 50euro a reasonable price for an Irish pale ale @5% in a 500ml bottle, what would your answer be. Reasonable is subjective and a business will charge what they can?

anncoates

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

I do both. :eek:

Same :pac:

drumswan

symbolic wrote: »

Yeah, I get what you mean.

But if someone started at thread that said is 50euro a reasonable price for an Irish pale ale @5% in a 500ml bottle, what would your answer be. Reasonable is subjective and a business will charge what they can?

Id say they are entitled to charge what they think the market will bear yeah. I dont personally think it'll sell at 50 quid a bottle but I dont see how its any skin off my nose what they price it at? I wouldnt pay it if I didnt see it as value.

anncoates

drumswan wrote: »

I dont personally think it'll sell at 50 quid a bottle but I dont see how its any skin off my nose what they price it at? I wouldnt pay it if I didnt see it as value.

So if everything decent was that price, you'd start drinking Tuborg?

Ruben Remus

Another point is that when Dungarvan, Trouble Brewing, Galway Hooker, etc, first launched their bottled beers they were priced between 2.80 and 3.30. This was at a time when craft beer had a lower profile than it does today. I don't know the economics behind that price, though I'm sure some here will profess vast expertise in this area.

When a new brewery, quite possibly inferior to those mentioned, arrives into the market today the bottles are generally pitched around the €3.50-4 mark. As a craft beer consumer that is more than I'm willing to pay and I don't think it bodes well for the long-term sustainability of a lot of these start-ups.

symbolic

drumswan wrote: »

Id say they are entitled to charge what they think the market will bear yeah. I dont personally think it'll sell at 50 quid a bottle but I dont see how its any skin off my nose what they price it at? I wouldnt pay it if I didnt see it as value.

Spose I'm just coming at it from someone looking for advice, but I guess it wasn't asked like that... People often ask people around them, do you think this laptop/tablet /bag of coal is a reasonable price, obviously companies can charge what they want but I think there is a point where people respond with, that's seems a bit unreasonable as you can get xyz which is similar for less.

I don't see the problem with the thread question but I also agree with your points drumswan ☺

All this talk of beer, I think a trip to against the grain is in order!

Lucena

anncoates wrote: »

Also wouldn't discount the 'premium' aspect as well. As so called craft beer is a relatively new thing here, it's a consumer field colonized by aficionados and experts who maybe actually prefer higher prices as a means of preserving an aspect of exclusivity and distinguishing themselves from mainstream consumers as well.

I'm sure that while there are some people who like the snobby/superior/premium bit of craft beer, most people are in it for the taste, and would have no objection to cheaper beer.

snowblind

I'm not a free market capitalism evangelist, I think people defend anything they would normally be against to just because of the one and only acceptable ideology.

But. I don't think 3.70 or whatever is that much. If you drink 5+ every day, yes it is expensive, but do you really need to do that. There are wines you can buy for a fiver, but sometimes you spend multiple times than that even if the objective difference in enjoyment might not be as many multiple higher. Same with whiskey, and a million other things.

If you consider the cost of living across Europe, Dublin is quite high, as is the whole of Ireland.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings.jsp?title=2014-mid&region=150

Now I can confirm that for example in Finland the craft beer prices are about 50%-100% higher than here. Same in Italy. UK is also considerably higher if you drink at a specialist place like Craft beer co. Sweden, more expensive. Craft beer in Germany isn't too cheap either, considering their lack of taxation.

I can get a pint of Vietnow in Blackbird for a fiver. In Italy or Finland that would be a 2/3 of a pint for 7 euro for similar quality stuff. And the whining never stops.

Another thing that annoys me is that who's gonna do an actually world class saison, sour or a barrel aged beer when there's so much resistance to anything else than Heino pricing. Good beer is more expensive to make, as is wine and whiskey. I've bought a few beers in my life that cost about 20€ a (wine bottle sized) bottle. No regrets. They were all fantastic, and totally worth it, for me.

I don't understand why you would whine about it, stating at the same time that there ARE beers which the pricing you like more of. Buy those beers then! Let the people who are ready to pay more for a more ambitious product do it. I do realize that a lot of the 4€ mark beers I've tried haven't been that great and not worth it. When this happens, I do not buy more and instead I get something else. Problem solved. There is so much beer to choose from right now, it's a really strange timing to complain.

Lovely Bloke

maybe they should give everyone one cheap beer, if you like it you then pay more. no wait, that's just silly.

snowblind

Imagine, when they make a good vintage wine, the price actually goes up all the time when the time to drink it comes nearer. Think about THAT for price gouging. See a 100€ bottle of wine in the Corkscrew? Start a thread on the internet! Or buy a cheaper one that suits your budget better?

Gits_bone

snowblind wrote: »

I'm not a free market capitalism evangelist, I think people defend anything they would normally be against to just because of the one and only acceptable ideology.

But. I don't think 3.70 or whatever is that much. If you drink 5+ every day, yes it is expensive, but do you really need to do that. There are wines you can buy for a fiver, but sometimes you spend multiple times than that even if the objective difference in enjoyment might not be as many multiple higher. Same with whiskey, and a million other things.

If you consider the cost of living across Europe, Dublin is quite high, as is the whole of Ireland.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings.jsp?title=2014-mid&region=150

Now I can confirm that for example in Finland the craft beer prices are about 50%-100% higher than here. Same in Italy. UK is also considerably higher if you drink at a specialist place like Craft beer co. Sweden, more expensive. Craft beer in Germany isn't too cheap either, considering their lack of taxation.

I can get a pint of Vietnow in Blackbird for a fiver. In Italy or Finland that would be a 2/3 of a pint for 7 euro for similar quality stuff. And the whining never stops.

Another thing that annoys me is that who's gonna do an actually world class saison, sour or a barrel aged beer when there's so much resistance to anything else than Heino pricing. Good beer is more expensive to make, as is wine and whiskey. I've bought a few beers in my life that cost about 20€ a (wine bottle sized) bottle. No regrets. They were all fantastic, and totally worth it, for me.

I don't understand why you would whine about it, stating at the same time that there ARE beers which the pricing you like more of. Buy those beers then! Let the people who are ready to pay more for a more ambitious product do it. I do realize that a lot of the 4€ mark beers I've tried haven't been that great and not worth it. When this happens, I do not buy more and instead I get something else. Problem solved. There is so much beer to choose from right now, it's a really strange timing to complain.

The OP did not ask if 3.70 was too much to spend on a beer.

The question is if 3.70 is reasonable for a beer.

Let's look at it this way;

Is 5 euro a reasonable price for a packet of Tayto.

Can I afford it? Yes.
Is it reasonable? No.

Is 400k (or whatever it's worth) reasonable for a 5 bed house in Dublin?

Can I afford it? No.
Is it reasonable? Yes.

drumswan

I think 3.70 is reasonable to spend on a beer, I do it all the time and dont even think about it.

snowblind

Gits_bone wrote: »

The OP did not ask if 3.70 was too much to spend on a beer.

The question is if 3.70 is reasonable for a beer.

Let's look at it this way;

Is 5 euro a reasonable price for a packet of Tayto.

Can I afford it? Yes.
Is it reasonable? No.

Is 400k (or whatever it's worth) reasonable for a 5 bed house in Dublin?

Can I afford it? No.
Is it reasonable? Yes.

What is "reasonable" is subjective.

All beer is not the same, so it's not all Tayto. Also your example is totally exaggerated. It's more like: Tayto is 70c and Kettle is 1.20. Is Kettle pricing reasonable?

If you are complaining about a 3.70 pale ale while recognizing that there are less than 3.70 pale ales you can buy, you are just being thick, IMO

Gits_bone

snowblind wrote: »

What is "reasonable" is subjective.

All beer is not the same, so it's not all Tayto. Also your example is totally exaggerated. It's more like: Tayto is 70c and Kettle is 1.20. Is Kettle pricing reasonable?

If you are complaining about a 3.70 pale ale while recognizing that there are less than 3.70 pale ales you can buy, you are just being thick, IMO

If the ale is shíte it's not reasonable. If it's a great ale it is. Depends on quality really.

Get a guy to fix a door.
If he does a good job and charges 20€ he's reasonable.
If he does a **** job and charges €20 he's not.

Simple.

n97 mini

Gits_bone wrote: »

Get a guy to fix a door.
If he does a good job and charges 20€ he's reasonable.
If he does a **** job and charges €20 he's not.

If the good job guy charges €200, a figure you regard to be too much for what's in hand, surely that's a more accurate comparison?

wandatowell

I voted thinking it was too expensive BUT I usually buy 1 bottle a week to have with my weekend steak as my treat. My only limit would be to not try the same beer twice (obviously nearly impossible considering my options) but I do what I can.

Bogsnorkler

OP. Generally if a new Irish 500ml beer comes out @ 3.50, I'd leave it be unless I hear good things as there are plenty of excellent Irish beers sold at or below 3.50 that provide excellent value for money

snowblind

n97 mini wrote: »

If the good job guy charges €200, a figure you regard to be too much for what's in hand, surely that's a more accurate comparison?

If that is a comparison to the premise of this thread; you should find a 37c pale ale in Ireland to complain about the 3.70 one. Ten times as much, really?

n97 mini

snowblind wrote: »

If that is a comparison to the premise of this thread; you should find a 37c pale ale in Ireland to complain about the 3.70 one. Ten times as much, really?

I don't really agree. If you think something is too much, it's too much.

squonk

I was browsing around Drinkstore, Martins and Bradlys last night so I see now where the OP came up with the question that launched this thread. From what I could see there was no decent beer on any of those sites now for less than €3 plus change.

Taking a case in point and one of my own personal favourites, Lean Folláin. Prices quoted for this beer were €3.25 on Drinksotre and €3.39 in either Martins or Bradlys.

Not so long ago the same bottle would have cost me about €2.80 in Tesco. Let's just say though that the bottle cost me €2.99 which is maybe more representative of the regular offie. In the space of about 18 months the proce of a bottle has risen by a factor of between 8-13%. The average inflation rate for 2013 was 0.50%. The average inflation rate for 2014 was 0.20%. Given this a retail price for the bottle of €3.10 would be more than generous. It's clear to me that €3.25-€3.39 for the bottle now is outright piss taking.

I haven't financial information for the breweries to know what the raw materials cost change is like but I suspect it's nothing very dramatic either. I could certainly swallow the argument when a small brewery like Independent might incur higher costs due to raw material price fluctuations but Carlow are pretty big by Craft standards so I think their buying power would insulate them somewhat.

We also have to look at this in the context of the new excise rules for small craft breweries. They're getting a helping hand there so that will help the bottom line for them as well.

To me it boils down fairly simply as craft beer is now very trendy and very popular. Because of that popularity, brewers, middlemen and retailers are all realising that they can take a bigger cut out of the whole thing. Despite this price hike, consumers still buy the product. Where does it end though? Today's €3.25 is next year's €3.50 and maybe nobody might notice a slick bump to €3.70 a while after that.

For me right now €3.20 seems to be my personal comfort point. Anything above that moves into the luxury bracket. Given a beer for €3.50 I'll start looking for a more reasonably priced alternative. For me also it's a deterrent from ordering a wide selection from sites like drinkstore. I can join Beoir of course for their discount but I'm not going to be buying enough for the volume discount on beers either. In short I order less beer and I drink less craft. It doesn't sound like a viable business model to me. I'd doubt I'm the only one thinking this way.

saintsaltynuts

6.50 for a pint of Brooklyn Lager last Saturday in Blackbird,Rathmines. Get the boat.

Lovely Bloke

saintsaltynuts wrote: »

6.50 for a pint of Brooklyn Lager last Saturday in Blackbird,Rathmines. Get the boat.

how does that compare, alcohol % wise, to other beers on draught there though?

Is Brooklyn Lager a higher % than, say, Heineken? Does it have further to travel to get to the point of sale? Is the pub paying more per keg than they do for other beers?

drumswan

squonk wrote: »

I was browsing around Drinkstore, Martins and Bradlys last night so I see now where the OP came up with the question that launched this thread. From what I could see there was no decent beer on any of those sites now for less than €3 plus change.

Taking a case in point and one of my own personal favourites, Lean Folláin. Prices quoted for this beer were €3.25 on Drinksotre and €3.39 in either Martins or Bradlys.

Not so long ago the same bottle would have cost me about €2.80 in Tesco. Let's just say though that the bottle cost me €2.99 which is maybe more representative of the regular offie. In the space of about 18 months the proce of a bottle has risen by a factor of between 8-13%. The average inflation rate for 2013 was 0.50%. The average inflation rate for 2014 was 0.20%. Given this a retail price for the bottle of €3.10 would be more than generous. It's clear to me that €3.25-€3.39 for the bottle now is outright piss taking.

Im not sure why you are comparing Tesco prices with Drinkstore or Martins, but Leann Folainn is €2.59 in Tesco now, so it has fallen in price.

http://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=271100006

squonk

drumswan wrote: »

Im not sure why you are comparing Tesco prices with Drinkstore or Martins, but Leann Folainn is €2.59 in Tesco now, so it has fallen in price.

http://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=271100006

I know the Tesco price was an outlier. I did quote €2.99 which was the bigh point in off licencing pricing at the time. My post was based on this €2.99 price point.

drumswan

Where are you getting the €2.99 from?

noby

Edit: in reply to squonk. Damn phone .

I'm not disputing your general argument, but just a couple of points:

There was an excuse increase in the last 18 months which would account for some of the increase.

Also this:

We also have to look at this in the context of the new excise rules for small craft breweries. They're getting a helping hand there so that will help the bottom line for them as well.



While it was a positive step by the govt it makes absolutely no difference to at least 95% of the breweries. And to the ones it will effect (Carlow are probably close) it just means they will keep paying the same rate of excise rather than actually saving money.

squonk

drumswan wrote: »

Where are you getting the €2.99 from?

Simple, it's what I've paid for Leann Folláin in places like O'Briens and other places. I've bought the beer for €2.89 but I picked the upper level as a starter point.

drumswan

squonk wrote: »

Simple, it's what I've paid for Leann Folláin in places like O'Briens and other places. I've bought the beer for €2.89 but I picked the upper level as a starter point.

This is a bit of a stretch no? Duty increases alone would account for the difference in price in O'Briens from 'some time in the past' until today.

Im not sure the regulars I buy from Irish brewers have gone up any more than nominally. Its the new entries to the market which seem to be more highly priced.

john the one

i have paid 3.70 for a bottle of beer in an offo, German i believe, if i would pay it for German, why wouldn't i pay it for Irish? But the times i have that sort of money are few and far in between

FYI Tesco's are doing 4 SchneiderWeisse for a tenner at the moment!