Is €3.70 a "reasonable" price for a 500 ml Irish craft beer in an off-licence?

Lovely Bloke

oh wait, I see the mistake now.

such jocularity!

squonk

The same thing happens here every time someone complains about price. The wagons get circled and the usual "If you don't like it, don't buy it' gets trotted out. I can only assume that it's because many here brew their own and have aspirations to get into the commercial side of things and so are generally supportive of price gouging as it'll benefit their startups.

Beer would want to be spectacular for me to pay over €3.10/20 for it. €3.70 is price gouging pure and simple. I don't care if the guy behind the off-licence counter is great craic altogether and knows what the guys in Fran Well/Kinnegar/GBB etc. had for breakfast this morning, I'm not paying at least half a euro over over what I'd prefer to pay for that.

I hang out on the food forums in general and read a discussion there yesterday about buying meat from butchers vs. supermarkets. The concensus there is that you're better off buying from a butcher who has the expertise and will help you with your purchase decisions AND provice the product at a more reasonable cost and higher quality. An offie should be no different. I should be able to get decent beers and a good service for €3 a pop. I'll pay more for specials for sure but not for run of the mill stuff.

As regards research, that's the cost of doing business. If your research budget is pushing your product prices up to the €3-€4 mark then you've frankly got problems. and an unsustainable business. I, the consumer, am not responsible for continually funding your R&D. I expect you to have produced a number of beers after some time that are popular and cash cows which provide a regular and stable source of income. Then you can start with the exotic R&D. I'm sure also that you can brew small batches for R&D purposes. How much can that cost really? If you're GBB and charging €5+ in your pubs for your wares then R&D is a manageable cost.

We all want nice beer but there's only so long where handing over serious wedge for the beers we like is practical or desirable.

drumswan

squonk wrote: »

The same thing happens here every time someone complains about price. The wagons get circled and the usual "If you don't like it, don't buy it' gets trotted out. I can only assume that it's because many here brew their own and have aspirations to get into the commercial side of things and so are generally supportive of price gouging as it'll benefit their startups.

What a load of nonsense. The breweries are running a business, they charge the maximum the market will bear for their product. Thats how business works, they dont exist to supply you with cheap beer.

That is the beginning, middle and end of the argument.

If you think you can significantly undercut the market open your own brewery, you will clean up. Until then, stop whining.

RasTa

Personally I won't whinge and just not buy their product. I've zero interest in buying any new Irish beers at €3.70 from an off license when there is a Founders breakfast stout sitting beside it for cheaper.

I enjoyed the West Kerry stout at the RDS fest however I'm never paying €4.60 from a off license. Same goes for the Independent Whiskey Stout at €5.60

I read there are 72 brewery's at the moment, can not see that being the case in the next 24 months.

squonk

drumswan wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. The breweries are running a business, they charge the maximum the market will bear for their product. Thats how business works, they dont exist to supply you with cheap beer.

That is the beginning, middle and end of the argument.

If you think you can significantly undercut the market open your own brewery, you will clean up. Until then, stop whining.

Your response is the epitome of the Circle The Wagons syndrome. Get your head out of the sand! I'm sure I'm not alone in finding €3.70 for 5% abv expensive. The price hasn't as much to do with what the market will bear as you seem to think. The tolerance for high prices at the moment is the 'Ooh New, Shiny' syndrome you get in most good craft pubs where new stock and special brews arrive on a weekly basis. I'll pay maybe €5/€6 to try out some beers but it amounts to an expensive night out. If your average craft bar did a regular pub's take on things and offred taps with just some 8 Degrees beers or Fran Well or GBB or whatever on a fairly constant basis with no new shiny stuff then the price factor would start to show up fairly quickly.

Weatherspoons are doing quite a good job of supplying very well priced beer at the moment. I'll head there as soon as one opens and I'll save the GBB pub for the few nights a year I'm in the mood to be price jacked, or the odd pint of BAS or OFAF while I'm en route elsewhere.

drumswan

squonk wrote: »

Your response is the epitome of the Circle The Wagons syndrome. Get your head out of the sand! I'm sure I'm not alone in finding €3.70 for 5% abv expensive. The price hasn't as much to do with what the market will bear as you seem to think. The tolerance for high prices at the moment is the 'Ooh New, Shiny' syndrome you get in most good craft pubs where new stock and special brews arrive on a weekly basis.

Presumably you have access to some sales figures or market research to back this up?

If what you say is correct then the prices will fall when people stop paying them. Which is what other people are saying. In other words the price is set by what the market will bear. Which is exactly what I said.

If your average craft bar did a regular pub's take on things and offred taps with just some 8 Degrees beers or Fran Well or GBB or whatever on a fairly constant basis with no new shiny stuff then the price factor would start to show up fairly quickly.

Why would they do that?

Im not sure you understand why you think prices should be cheaper - they just should apparently.

If youve a spare 100K and are ready to work for peanuts for the next few years to test your theories out let us know, I'll follow with interest. If you havent and arent then maybe you'll at least understand the barriers to entry into the market which work to keep the prices as they are. If everyone who thought they could just waltz in and start knocking out bottles at 2 quid a pop did it the prices would be much lower. Unfortunately thats not how it works.

folan

i find it unreasonable, and dont buy it.

the beer revolu

Thanks for all the lessons on free market capitalism!
Over and over and over and over and over.
(far more repetitive and boring than people discussing value or the lack of it in Irish craft brewing)

People are allowed express an opinion on whether a beer is at the correct price point for the market to bear. This is not whinging.

Ruben Remus

squonk wrote: »

The same thing happens here every time someone complains about price. The wagons get circled and the usual "If you don't like it, don't buy it' gets trotted out. I can only assume that it's because many here brew their own and have aspirations to get into the commercial side of things and so are generally supportive of price gouging as it'll benefit their startups.

Beer would want to be spectacular for me to pay over €3.10/20 for it. €3.70 is price gouging pure and simple. I don't care if the guy behind the off-licence counter is great craic altogether and knows what the guys in Fran Well/Kinnegar/GBB etc. had for breakfast this morning, I'm not paying at least half a euro over over what I'd prefer to pay for that.

We all want nice beer but there's only so long where handing over serious wedge for the beers we like is practical or desirable.

This is spot on. I'm bemused by the way many posters feel they must act as unofficial PR people for publicans and brewers in the way they defend excessive pricing that's to the detriment of the average consumer.

BaZmO*

squonk wrote: »

Your response is the epitome of the Circle The Wagons syndrome. Get your head out of the sand! I'm sure I'm not alone in finding €3.70 for 5% abv expensive. The price hasn't as much to do with what the market will bear as you seem to think. The tolerance for high prices at the moment is the 'Ooh New, Shiny' syndrome you get in most good craft pubs where new stock and special brews arrive on a weekly basis. I'll pay maybe €5/€6 to try out some beers but it amounts to an expensive night out. If your average craft bar did a regular pub's take on things and offred taps with just some 8 Degrees beers or Fran Well or GBB or whatever on a fairly constant basis with no new shiny stuff then the price factor would start to show up fairly quickly.

Weatherspoons are doing quite a good job of supplying very well priced beer at the moment. I'll head there as soon as one opens and I'll save the GBB pub for the few nights a year I'm in the mood to be price jacked, or the odd pint of BAS or OFAF while I'm en route elsewhere.

I don't know why you think everybody is against you on this. People are just stating fact. If you don't like the cost of a product well then don't buy it. Constantly going on about how expensive something is just gets tiresome.

At the end of the day, and this is a very important thing, companies have to charge what the market can sustain. You don't know what a company's finances are like, and you also don't what price they sell it to middle man at.

I think most people here will agree that a lot of the new Irish stuff coming out is on the expensive side, but obviously someone is buying it at the moment, and if they're not well they won't be in business much longer.

I used to buy all the new Irish stuff when it came out and if I thought it was worth buying again I would, if not, I wouldn't. Now I'm being a lot pickier about what I buy as I've been let down too many times. Thing is though, I don't keep going on about it.

I think there might be a need for a "big moan about prices" thread.

the beer revolu

The economic argument pushed here ad nauseum explains (maybe some people needed it explained) why any beer is at its price point.

What is being discussed here is whether that price point is (in people's opinion) correct and whether it is sustainable.

Can people be allowed to do this?

BaZmO*

the beer revolu wrote: »

What is being discussed here is whether that price point is (in people's opinion) correct and whether it is sustainable.

Correct? In what sense?

Sustainable in who's view?

the beer revolu wrote: »

Can we be allowed to do this?

Of course you can, and likewise people should be allowed to give an opposing view. Is that ok with you?

Zebra3

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

330cl bottles

Nope.

McGrath's and O'Hara's stouts 500ml bottles are 2.45.

O'Hara's LF is in 330ml bottles.

drumswan

the beer revolu wrote: »

What is being discussed here is whether that price point is (in people's opinion) correct and whether it is sustainable.

Can we be allowed to do this?

Go ahead then...

squonk

drumswan wrote: »

If youve a spare 100K and are ready to work for peanuts for the next few years to test your theories out let us know, I'll follow with interest. If you havent and arent then maybe you'll at least understand the barriers to entry into the market which work to keep the prices as they are. If everyone who thought they could just waltz in and start knocking out bottles at 2 quid a pop did it the prices would be much lower. Unfortunately thats not how it works.

Please tell me about the barriers to entry. I don't see too many aside from creating a quiality product to launch, which you would have done if you were a keen enough brewer to arrive at a point where you decided to enter the market in the first place, finding a pub(s) to start taking your kegs, a design for your label and the determination to deliver to your suppliers regularly. Anything after that i.e. bottling, market expansion etc. will come in time. I don't doubt you'll living on peanuts for the first while but that can be said of setting up any small business. I don't know how any of that relates to over the odds pricing for a finished product though.

anncoates

BaZmO* wrote: »

Sustainable in who's view?

Well, I don't really know the cost of producing beer here but I think what people are saying is that if the production costs make eye-watering retail costs inevitable, then fair enough but if the price is jacked up regardless, it's a barrier for some people and to growth I assume.

As a neophyte that doesn't know much about brewing costs and would like to see craft grow more here, I'm following the thread with interest and I think taking the somewhat blind 'pay more for quality otherwise fuck off' stance is not exactly helpful in lieu of explaining to people why such prices are necessary.

the beer revolu

BaZmO* wrote: »

Correct? In what sense?

Sustainable in who's view?



Of course you can, and likewise people should be allowed to give an opposing view. Is that ok with you?

I'm pretty sure that most people here understand the the price of anything, in normal circumstances, is somewhere between the production cost (lets say the cost to get a beer on the shop shelf, so production + other costs) and what people are willing to pay for it. I think we can all agree on that point (maybe).

When I mean correct, I mean will enough people pay that price? If enough people don't, the product will fail.
The sustainable thing is related - will enough people pay the price over the lifetime of the product?

I have not made any argument on price and I have no problem with opposing views. But the opposing views on this thread seem to suggest that no consumer has the right to discuss or question the price point of any craft beer in Ireland.

I'd have no problem with people arguing that any beer is not overpriced. That is not what is happening here - people are being condescended to and belittled for daring to question the price of craft beers.

The title of the thread is not "is it acceptable to question the price point of Irish craft beers?"

drumswan

squonk wrote: »

Please tell me about the barriers to entry. I don't see too many aside from creating a quiality product to launch, which you would have done if you were a keen enough brewer to arrive at a point where you decided to enter the market in the first place, finding a pub(s) to start taking your kegs, a design for your label and the determination to deliver to your suppliers regularly. Anything after that i.e. bottling, market expansion etc. will come in time. I don't doubt you'll living on peanuts for the first while but that can be said of setting up any small business. I don't know how any of that relates to over the odds pricing for a finished product though.

If more people can enter a market easily prices fall. Its economics 101, the stuff they teach kids in Junior Cert business studies.

People dont generally have 100 thousand euro and years to burn at low income buried in debt, so they dont enter the market, or if they do they go in contract and price is set by those who have invested in equipment. Those who have invested are looking to clear their debt/recoup their capital investment/grow their reserves as quickly as possible so they price their product at the highest the market will bear.

Thats how it relates to the price of the beer.

Lucena

The thing is, a lot of people will pay a high(ish) price for a new beer, just to see what it’s like. I’d have no problem paying 3.70 for 50cl as a once off. However, for me to buy it again, it’d want to be an exceptional beer.
However, even for an exceptional beer, price will still make a difference to me.

For example, a local brewery here in France started producing different beers (lager, ambrée, dark beer, wheat beer and IPA) and selling them at 2.50 each for a 50cl bottle. So I bought loads, especially the IPA. And because I had loads in the cellar, and it was cheap, I didn’t think anything of having a beer whenever I felt like it, so I drank loads. At 3 euros, I’d still have bought it, but would be more likely to think ‘ah, I’ll save it as a treat for the weekend’. At 3.50, I wouldn’t buy it.

I was chatting to a guy in the brewery and he said to me ‘sure it’s flying out the door at 2.50, I might as well bump it up to 3 euros’. I made the above point but he didn’t really seem to take it on board, saying something along the lines of ‘well, people who are passionate about beer don’t mind paying a little extra for quality’. In the end, he only bumped it up to 2.70, but I haven’t heard how that’s affected sales.

I suppose the question is whether the brewery aims to sell loads with a smaller margin, or sell less with a higher margin, which is probably the way to go for micro-breweries which by definition have a limited production capacity. I do think there will be a lot of die-off in the market though in the coming years, as people won't pay premium prices for average beer.

the beer revolu

drumswan wrote: »

Those who have invested are looking to clear their debt/recoup their capital investment/grow their reserves as quickly as possible so they price their product at the highest the market will bear.

You don't say??:eek:

I think we've, maybe, established that :rolleyes:

Gits_bone

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Never understand these threads where people give out about price - if you think the price is unreasonable, don't pay it! If enough people don't pay it, then the business will fail, and that's not a bad thing.

No business, anywhere, is obliged to cater to Joe Bloggs' pocket, if you can afford, and are happy to, pay 3.70+ for a bottle of beer, then more power to you, if you can't or won't, then buy cheaper!

It's the same in the bleedin GBB threads, people expecting some hippie communist system where all beer costs the same low, low price, or that companies and businesses making a profit is a "bad thing". Newsflash - it isn't. It's the world we inhabit.

I also think that the price of good beers includes not only the ingredients in and on that particular bottle, but also the ingredients in all the test batches that went down the drain (I actually think GBB have pulled a good one here too, by sticking some of their test batches into the taps in the pubs, free market research!), R&D is not free either, and you can be damn sure (speaking from experience here) that for every successful recipe, even if it's an average batch of unremarkable Pale Ale, at least one, and usually many more, have been off, infected, or taste just plain manky, it's not as if all these lads just came up with perfect recipes straight away.

The moaning about price became tiresome about 2 years ago, and it's become a parody now.

It doesn't matter what you or I think is reasonable, if the brewer wants to put beer out, via a distributer (+%), into an off licence (+%), at a certain price point, then that brewer will live or die by that price, and so goes the world of capitalism.

Either buy, or don't buy.

There's a difference in something being reasonable and something being affordable.

drumswan

the beer revolu wrote: »

You don't say??:eek:

I think we've, maybe, established that :rolleyes:

I was directly addressing a question posed to me by Squonk on how entry costs relate to product price.

Should we all check if our posts are OK with you before we put them up?

anncoates

Lucena wrote: »

I suppose the question is whether the brewery aims to sell loads with a smaller margin, or sell less with a higher margin, which is probably the way to go for micro-breweries which by definition have a limited production capacity.

Also wouldn't discount the 'premium' aspect as well. As so called craft beer is a relatively new thing here, it's a consumer field colonized by aficionados and experts who maybe actually prefer higher prices as a means of preserving an aspect of exclusivity and distinguishing themselves from mainstream consumers as well.

symbolic

drumswan wrote: »

I.

Should we all check if our posts are OK with you before we put them up?

Are we saying a price is reasonable as long as someone pays the price?

drumswan

Lucena wrote: »

I suppose the question is whether the brewery aims to sell loads with a smaller margin, or sell less with a higher margin, which is probably the way to go for micro-breweries which by definition have a limited production capacity.

Excellent point. Slashing the price to sell more numbers which you dont have the capacity to produce wouldnt be a runner.

Presumably there is a balance between production levels and price point which takes costs like running the brewery, staffing levels etc into account.

Unfortunately I think if that balance means breweries are forced to price at 4 quid a bottle many will struggle.

drumswan

symbolic wrote: »

Are we saying a price is reasonable as long as someone pays the price?

'Reasonable' is entirely subjective. For the brewer a reasonable price is one they can sell their beer at and turn an acceptable profit.

Lovely Bloke

anncoates wrote: »

maybe actually prefer higher prices as a means of preserving an aspect of exclusivity and distinguishing themselves from mainstream consumers as well.

meanwhile those very same posters are to be seen espousing the virtues of cheap cask and/or craft ales in the new Wetherspoons' pubs.

An odd lot to be sure.

anncoates

drumswan wrote: »

'Reasonable' is entirely subjective. For the brewer a reasonable price is one they can sell their beer at and turn an acceptable profit.

Funny seeing reasonable being stressed as entirely subjective while acceptable is stressed as entirely objective, in the same sentence.

anncoates

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

meanwhile those very same posters are to be seen espousing the virtues of cheap cask and/or craft ales in the new Wetherspoons' pubs.

An odd lot to be sure.

Presumably they still go to JDW but only check in on Facebook when they're in Against The Grain or the Norseman. :pac:

drumswan

anncoates wrote: »

Funny seeing reasonable being stressed as entirely subjective while acceptable is stressed as entirely objective, in the same sentence.

Hah, acceptable to the brewer and his accountant obviously!

Perhaps some should introduce a 'pay what you want' model for some of our more frugally minded friends on-thread. i wonder how long they'd stay in business.