Is €3.70 a "reasonable" price for a 500 ml Irish craft beer in an off-licence?

St. Lupulin

Off-Licence only.

Let's say it's 5% abv Irish pale ale for arguments sake...

Insect Overlord

I'd pay more than that for bottles of Kinnegar down here, so I'd have to say yes. Not too often though.

schemingbohemia

Pub or off-licence?

All depends on what it is, bit of a pointless poll.

Buy it or don't buy it, there's no one forcing you. Also reasonable for one person is extortion for another.

the beer revolu

Blacks Black IPA 4 for €9 in Dunne's is reasonable:D

drumswan

Too many factors involved to make a judgement based on ABV alone.

St. Lupulin

I fecked up. Meant Irish beer, solely.

You're average pale ale pretty much.

Ravelleman

There are certainly many factors involved but I do consciously avoid Irish craft beers that are more than about €3.20 each. Prices are creeping up but there are nice beers available for under €3 like the O'Shea's range and the Dunnes 4 for €9 offer.

dregin

O'Haras Stout and Red are now cheaper in Tesco than O'Sheas in Aldi. 1.79/1.89 VS 1.99.

muletide

Anyone know where you can get EvilTwin Falco cheaper than €3.69 for 355ml ? (O'Briens Price)

super_furry

Yes for a pub, pricey for an off licence but could still be good depending on what it tastes like.

Ravelleman

super_furry wrote: »

Yes for a pub, pricey for an off licence but could still be good depending on what it tastes like.

Show me a pub in Dublin other than Wetherspoons with those prices and I will go to it.

n97 mini

I remember seeing Irish craft beers in Suerquinn for €2.99 and thinking "no f-ing way am I paying that". Now €3.99 is the new €2.99.

Geuze

3.70 is not at all reasonable, no way.

Basic, cheap, low quality beer is under 30c in Germany.

Now, we have much higher excise, and slightly higher VAT, but still, it's a long, long way from 30 cent to 3.70.

There is little justification for 3.70 per 50cl bottle, unless the ABV is very high.

BaZmO*

Geuze wrote: »

3.70 is not at all reasonable, no way.

Basic, cheap, low quality beer is under 30c in Germany.

Now, we have much higher excise, and slightly higher VAT, but still, it's a long, long way from 30 cent to 3.70.

There is little justification for 3.70 per 50cl bottle, unless the ABV is very high.

You're talking about beer though, not milk or bread. A reasonable price is whatever price people will pay.

It's simple business, you charge what you can, and hopefully that price is not too high that it'll scare away future custom. It's capitalism baby!

Lovely Bloke

Never understand these threads where people give out about price - if you think the price is unreasonable, don't pay it! If enough people don't pay it, then the business will fail, and that's not a bad thing.

No business, anywhere, is obliged to cater to Joe Bloggs' pocket, if you can afford, and are happy to, pay 3.70+ for a bottle of beer, then more power to you, if you can't or won't, then buy cheaper!

It's the same in the bleedin GBB threads, people expecting some hippie communist system where all beer costs the same low, low price, or that companies and businesses making a profit is a "bad thing". Newsflash - it isn't. It's the world we inhabit.

I also think that the price of good beers includes not only the ingredients in and on that particular bottle, but also the ingredients in all the test batches that went down the drain (I actually think GBB have pulled a good one here too, by sticking some of their test batches into the taps in the pubs, free market research!), R&D is not free either, and you can be damn sure (speaking from experience here) that for every successful recipe, even if it's an average batch of unremarkable Pale Ale, at least one, and usually many more, have been off, infected, or taste just plain manky, it's not as if all these lads just came up with perfect recipes straight away.

The moaning about price became tiresome about 2 years ago, and it's become a parody now.

It doesn't matter what you or I think is reasonable, if the brewer wants to put beer out, via a distributer (+%), into an off licence (+%), at a certain price point, then that brewer will live or die by that price, and so goes the world of capitalism.

Either buy, or don't buy.

drumswan

If anyone has a business plan to bring cheap, quality beer to market I'd love to hear it.

snowblind

If I can't buy a similar/better quality product for cheaper, yeah? If I'm on a budget, I'll buy less beers.

Hoppy beers are better fresh. If I can get a local recently bottled product for 3.70 while there's an american big house craft brew for 3€ next to it, I'll most likely take the former. Unless it's a bland one like dungarvan or what have you.

If you want to make/drink cheap quality beer you need to be in the west coast of the USA.

Comparing a german supermarket beer to an Irish craft beer is pretty ignorant. Why not compare a german craft beer to an Irish craft beer?

Paz-CCFC

n97 mini wrote: »

I remember seeing Irish craft beers in Suerquinn for €2.99 and thinking "no f-ing way am I paying that". Now €3.99 is the new €2.99.

What supermarket did you see 4-5% Irish pale ales going for €4 a bottle?

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Never understand these threads where people give out about price - if you think the price is unreasonable, don't pay it! If enough people don't pay it, then the business will fail, and that's not a bad thing.

The moaning about price became tiresome about 2 years ago, and it's become a parody now.

Either buy, or don't buy.

You make some good points, and I broadly agree with your post. But, in similar vein as business being entitled to charge what they want, consumers are well entitled to complain about what they perceive as a poor quality of low product. They can complain to the business or recommend to others not to buy the product. There's nothing wrong with that, and it may lead to more choosing not to buy it and the company making less money, as you suggest that people should do.

In fact, I'm not too sure that consumers in this country complain directly to the business as much as they should. There's a lot of "I wouldn't give them the satisfaction, I'll just never go back there/buy their products again". If you give your feedback, then the business can act on that if they think it would be better for them to do so. If they don't get any complaints and their sales just drop off, it could be due to any one or a combination of a broad number of reasons that they might not be able to identify.

Lovely Bloke

Yeah, I complain when it's warranted. Directly to the problem causers, I'm not one of these people who'll bitch about a place, but still go back.

I sent a sandwich back on Saturday because the bread was moldy - my table of six got free deserts.

I complained in Spoons before Xmas because the service was shít and the beer ran out.

I'll happily give return business to places like that, once they at least try to rectify the issues.

It's just in this instance, it's kind of hard to see what the complaints are about, especially comparing to huge US craft breweries like SN, Founders and the like, the Irish brewers are buying a fraction of the ingredients these lads are, so bulk discounts will apply to them, not to mention they are probably using locally sourced hops and grains too.

Complaining about price is one thing, but not knowing why a particular product is the price it is, is completely another.

I do see the difference between a price complaint and a quality complaint too. I've complained about plenty of Irish Brewers and the quality of their beers (RED ALES AGAIN!!!!!), but not about the price - because I brew myself, I know how hard it is to actually get it not just right, but acceptable to sell.

the beer revolu

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

It's just in this instance, it's kind of hard to see what the complaints are about, especially comparing to huge US craft breweries like SN, Founders and the like, the Irish brewers are buying a fraction of the ingredients these lads are, so bulk discounts will apply to them, not to mention they are probably using locally sourced hops and grains too.

When you factor in the transatlantic transport costs and the fact the indigenous beers have half the duty that an import has, maybe it is fair to compare prices between US craft beers and home produced beers.

To be honest, Irish craft breweries have to compete with imports if they are going to survive.

Lovely Bloke

the beer revolu wrote: »

When you factor in the transatlantic transport costs and the fact the indigenous beers have half the duty that an import has, maybe it is fair to compare prices between US craft beers and home produced beers.

To be honest, Irish craft breweries have to compete with imports if they are going to survive.

Big if imo, some will, some won't - it's just business. The ones that give themselves the edge, be it by pricing lower, better product or shiney lables will win out.

JONJO THE MISER

drumswan wrote: »

If anyone has a business plan to bring cheap, quality beer to market I'd love to hear it.

Well how come i can buy 8 degrees sunburnt for 1.85 a bottle including delivery.
The hell im going to pay 2.50 or more a bottle.

BaZmO*

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Well how come i can buy 8 degrees sunburnt for 1.85 a bottle including delivery.
The hell im going to pay 2.50 or more a bottle.

Maybe they have smaller overheads? Who knows?

Lovely Bloke

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Well how come i can buy 8 degrees sunburnt for 1.85 a bottle including delivery.
The hell im going to pay 2.50 or more a bottle.

because distributer and off licence need to make a living too, at 1.85 you are buying direct from 8 Degrees - but, can you buy one or two at a time, or do you need to buy 72 bottles to get that price?

Insect Overlord

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Well how come i can buy 8 degrees sunburnt for 1.85 a bottle including delivery.
The hell im going to pay 2.50 or more a bottle.

They're 330 mls too. This thread is about 50cl bottles.

RasTa

Just brew your own beer so, cheaper and the same quality as most crap that's coming out of Ireland these days.

Costs €120 to get a decent set up for all grain.

drumswan

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Well how come i can buy 8 degrees sunburnt for 1.85 a bottle including delivery.
The hell im going to pay 2.50 or more a bottle.

Thats great if you want 72 bottles of Irish Red. If we are going to go back to buying fairly inoffensive beer by the slab that crowd Guinness do a stout you might want to look into

Personally I like to head along to the local specialist off licence and pick up a few bottles for the week, have a chat about whats new, which seasonals have come back up or look out for a mix of old favourites. I perceive the service they provide as having some value so I dont mind spending a few quid.

And like many others here I brew my own so if I want a cheap supping beer I just pour one from the tap.

Zebra3

St. Lupulin wrote: »

Off-Licence only.

Let's say it's 5% abv Irish pale ale for arguments sake...

McGrath's and O'Hara's stouts in Spoons for €2.45.....

Lovely Bloke

Zebra3 wrote: »

McGrath's and O'Hara's stouts in Spoons for €2.45.....

330cl bottles

Paz-CCFC

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

330cl bottles

Jaysus, I heard that Wetherspoon were good value, but I didn't think they were that good.

Lovely Bloke

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Jaysus, I heard that Wetherspoon were good value, but I didn't think they were that good.

huh?

You can currently get pints of pretty decent cask ale for 1.99.

Lovely Bloke

oh wait, I see the mistake now.

such jocularity!

squonk

The same thing happens here every time someone complains about price. The wagons get circled and the usual "If you don't like it, don't buy it' gets trotted out. I can only assume that it's because many here brew their own and have aspirations to get into the commercial side of things and so are generally supportive of price gouging as it'll benefit their startups.

Beer would want to be spectacular for me to pay over €3.10/20 for it. €3.70 is price gouging pure and simple. I don't care if the guy behind the off-licence counter is great craic altogether and knows what the guys in Fran Well/Kinnegar/GBB etc. had for breakfast this morning, I'm not paying at least half a euro over over what I'd prefer to pay for that.

I hang out on the food forums in general and read a discussion there yesterday about buying meat from butchers vs. supermarkets. The concensus there is that you're better off buying from a butcher who has the expertise and will help you with your purchase decisions AND provice the product at a more reasonable cost and higher quality. An offie should be no different. I should be able to get decent beers and a good service for €3 a pop. I'll pay more for specials for sure but not for run of the mill stuff.

As regards research, that's the cost of doing business. If your research budget is pushing your product prices up to the €3-€4 mark then you've frankly got problems. and an unsustainable business. I, the consumer, am not responsible for continually funding your R&D. I expect you to have produced a number of beers after some time that are popular and cash cows which provide a regular and stable source of income. Then you can start with the exotic R&D. I'm sure also that you can brew small batches for R&D purposes. How much can that cost really? If you're GBB and charging €5+ in your pubs for your wares then R&D is a manageable cost.

We all want nice beer but there's only so long where handing over serious wedge for the beers we like is practical or desirable.

drumswan

squonk wrote: »

The same thing happens here every time someone complains about price. The wagons get circled and the usual "If you don't like it, don't buy it' gets trotted out. I can only assume that it's because many here brew their own and have aspirations to get into the commercial side of things and so are generally supportive of price gouging as it'll benefit their startups.

What a load of nonsense. The breweries are running a business, they charge the maximum the market will bear for their product. Thats how business works, they dont exist to supply you with cheap beer.

That is the beginning, middle and end of the argument.

If you think you can significantly undercut the market open your own brewery, you will clean up. Until then, stop whining.

RasTa

Personally I won't whinge and just not buy their product. I've zero interest in buying any new Irish beers at €3.70 from an off license when there is a Founders breakfast stout sitting beside it for cheaper.

I enjoyed the West Kerry stout at the RDS fest however I'm never paying €4.60 from a off license. Same goes for the Independent Whiskey Stout at €5.60

I read there are 72 brewery's at the moment, can not see that being the case in the next 24 months.

squonk

drumswan wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. The breweries are running a business, they charge the maximum the market will bear for their product. Thats how business works, they dont exist to supply you with cheap beer.

That is the beginning, middle and end of the argument.

If you think you can significantly undercut the market open your own brewery, you will clean up. Until then, stop whining.

Your response is the epitome of the Circle The Wagons syndrome. Get your head out of the sand! I'm sure I'm not alone in finding €3.70 for 5% abv expensive. The price hasn't as much to do with what the market will bear as you seem to think. The tolerance for high prices at the moment is the 'Ooh New, Shiny' syndrome you get in most good craft pubs where new stock and special brews arrive on a weekly basis. I'll pay maybe €5/€6 to try out some beers but it amounts to an expensive night out. If your average craft bar did a regular pub's take on things and offred taps with just some 8 Degrees beers or Fran Well or GBB or whatever on a fairly constant basis with no new shiny stuff then the price factor would start to show up fairly quickly.

Weatherspoons are doing quite a good job of supplying very well priced beer at the moment. I'll head there as soon as one opens and I'll save the GBB pub for the few nights a year I'm in the mood to be price jacked, or the odd pint of BAS or OFAF while I'm en route elsewhere.

drumswan

squonk wrote: »

Your response is the epitome of the Circle The Wagons syndrome. Get your head out of the sand! I'm sure I'm not alone in finding €3.70 for 5% abv expensive. The price hasn't as much to do with what the market will bear as you seem to think. The tolerance for high prices at the moment is the 'Ooh New, Shiny' syndrome you get in most good craft pubs where new stock and special brews arrive on a weekly basis.

Presumably you have access to some sales figures or market research to back this up?

If what you say is correct then the prices will fall when people stop paying them. Which is what other people are saying. In other words the price is set by what the market will bear. Which is exactly what I said.

If your average craft bar did a regular pub's take on things and offred taps with just some 8 Degrees beers or Fran Well or GBB or whatever on a fairly constant basis with no new shiny stuff then the price factor would start to show up fairly quickly.

Why would they do that?

Im not sure you understand why you think prices should be cheaper - they just should apparently.

If youve a spare 100K and are ready to work for peanuts for the next few years to test your theories out let us know, I'll follow with interest. If you havent and arent then maybe you'll at least understand the barriers to entry into the market which work to keep the prices as they are. If everyone who thought they could just waltz in and start knocking out bottles at 2 quid a pop did it the prices would be much lower. Unfortunately thats not how it works.

folan

i find it unreasonable, and dont buy it.

the beer revolu

Thanks for all the lessons on free market capitalism!
Over and over and over and over and over.
(far more repetitive and boring than people discussing value or the lack of it in Irish craft brewing)

People are allowed express an opinion on whether a beer is at the correct price point for the market to bear. This is not whinging.

Ruben Remus

squonk wrote: »

The same thing happens here every time someone complains about price. The wagons get circled and the usual "If you don't like it, don't buy it' gets trotted out. I can only assume that it's because many here brew their own and have aspirations to get into the commercial side of things and so are generally supportive of price gouging as it'll benefit their startups.

Beer would want to be spectacular for me to pay over €3.10/20 for it. €3.70 is price gouging pure and simple. I don't care if the guy behind the off-licence counter is great craic altogether and knows what the guys in Fran Well/Kinnegar/GBB etc. had for breakfast this morning, I'm not paying at least half a euro over over what I'd prefer to pay for that.

We all want nice beer but there's only so long where handing over serious wedge for the beers we like is practical or desirable.

This is spot on. I'm bemused by the way many posters feel they must act as unofficial PR people for publicans and brewers in the way they defend excessive pricing that's to the detriment of the average consumer.

BaZmO*

squonk wrote: »

Your response is the epitome of the Circle The Wagons syndrome. Get your head out of the sand! I'm sure I'm not alone in finding €3.70 for 5% abv expensive. The price hasn't as much to do with what the market will bear as you seem to think. The tolerance for high prices at the moment is the 'Ooh New, Shiny' syndrome you get in most good craft pubs where new stock and special brews arrive on a weekly basis. I'll pay maybe €5/€6 to try out some beers but it amounts to an expensive night out. If your average craft bar did a regular pub's take on things and offred taps with just some 8 Degrees beers or Fran Well or GBB or whatever on a fairly constant basis with no new shiny stuff then the price factor would start to show up fairly quickly.

Weatherspoons are doing quite a good job of supplying very well priced beer at the moment. I'll head there as soon as one opens and I'll save the GBB pub for the few nights a year I'm in the mood to be price jacked, or the odd pint of BAS or OFAF while I'm en route elsewhere.

I don't know why you think everybody is against you on this. People are just stating fact. If you don't like the cost of a product well then don't buy it. Constantly going on about how expensive something is just gets tiresome.

At the end of the day, and this is a very important thing, companies have to charge what the market can sustain. You don't know what a company's finances are like, and you also don't what price they sell it to middle man at.

I think most people here will agree that a lot of the new Irish stuff coming out is on the expensive side, but obviously someone is buying it at the moment, and if they're not well they won't be in business much longer.

I used to buy all the new Irish stuff when it came out and if I thought it was worth buying again I would, if not, I wouldn't. Now I'm being a lot pickier about what I buy as I've been let down too many times. Thing is though, I don't keep going on about it.

I think there might be a need for a "big moan about prices" thread.

the beer revolu

The economic argument pushed here ad nauseum explains (maybe some people needed it explained) why any beer is at its price point.

What is being discussed here is whether that price point is (in people's opinion) correct and whether it is sustainable.

Can people be allowed to do this?

BaZmO*

the beer revolu wrote: »

What is being discussed here is whether that price point is (in people's opinion) correct and whether it is sustainable.

Correct? In what sense?

Sustainable in who's view?

the beer revolu wrote: »

Can we be allowed to do this?

Of course you can, and likewise people should be allowed to give an opposing view. Is that ok with you?

Zebra3

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

330cl bottles

Nope.

McGrath's and O'Hara's stouts 500ml bottles are 2.45.

O'Hara's LF is in 330ml bottles.

drumswan

the beer revolu wrote: »

What is being discussed here is whether that price point is (in people's opinion) correct and whether it is sustainable.

Can we be allowed to do this?

Go ahead then...

squonk

drumswan wrote: »

If youve a spare 100K and are ready to work for peanuts for the next few years to test your theories out let us know, I'll follow with interest. If you havent and arent then maybe you'll at least understand the barriers to entry into the market which work to keep the prices as they are. If everyone who thought they could just waltz in and start knocking out bottles at 2 quid a pop did it the prices would be much lower. Unfortunately thats not how it works.

Please tell me about the barriers to entry. I don't see too many aside from creating a quiality product to launch, which you would have done if you were a keen enough brewer to arrive at a point where you decided to enter the market in the first place, finding a pub(s) to start taking your kegs, a design for your label and the determination to deliver to your suppliers regularly. Anything after that i.e. bottling, market expansion etc. will come in time. I don't doubt you'll living on peanuts for the first while but that can be said of setting up any small business. I don't know how any of that relates to over the odds pricing for a finished product though.

anncoates

BaZmO* wrote: »

Sustainable in who's view?

Well, I don't really know the cost of producing beer here but I think what people are saying is that if the production costs make eye-watering retail costs inevitable, then fair enough but if the price is jacked up regardless, it's a barrier for some people and to growth I assume.

As a neophyte that doesn't know much about brewing costs and would like to see craft grow more here, I'm following the thread with interest and I think taking the somewhat blind 'pay more for quality otherwise fuck off' stance is not exactly helpful in lieu of explaining to people why such prices are necessary.

the beer revolu

BaZmO* wrote: »

Correct? In what sense?

Sustainable in who's view?



Of course you can, and likewise people should be allowed to give an opposing view. Is that ok with you?

I'm pretty sure that most people here understand the the price of anything, in normal circumstances, is somewhere between the production cost (lets say the cost to get a beer on the shop shelf, so production + other costs) and what people are willing to pay for it. I think we can all agree on that point (maybe).

When I mean correct, I mean will enough people pay that price? If enough people don't, the product will fail.
The sustainable thing is related - will enough people pay the price over the lifetime of the product?

I have not made any argument on price and I have no problem with opposing views. But the opposing views on this thread seem to suggest that no consumer has the right to discuss or question the price point of any craft beer in Ireland.

I'd have no problem with people arguing that any beer is not overpriced. That is not what is happening here - people are being condescended to and belittled for daring to question the price of craft beers.

The title of the thread is not "is it acceptable to question the price point of Irish craft beers?"

drumswan

squonk wrote: »

Please tell me about the barriers to entry. I don't see too many aside from creating a quiality product to launch, which you would have done if you were a keen enough brewer to arrive at a point where you decided to enter the market in the first place, finding a pub(s) to start taking your kegs, a design for your label and the determination to deliver to your suppliers regularly. Anything after that i.e. bottling, market expansion etc. will come in time. I don't doubt you'll living on peanuts for the first while but that can be said of setting up any small business. I don't know how any of that relates to over the odds pricing for a finished product though.

If more people can enter a market easily prices fall. Its economics 101, the stuff they teach kids in Junior Cert business studies.

People dont generally have 100 thousand euro and years to burn at low income buried in debt, so they dont enter the market, or if they do they go in contract and price is set by those who have invested in equipment. Those who have invested are looking to clear their debt/recoup their capital investment/grow their reserves as quickly as possible so they price their product at the highest the market will bear.

Thats how it relates to the price of the beer.

Lucena

The thing is, a lot of people will pay a high(ish) price for a new beer, just to see what it’s like. I’d have no problem paying 3.70 for 50cl as a once off. However, for me to buy it again, it’d want to be an exceptional beer.
However, even for an exceptional beer, price will still make a difference to me.

For example, a local brewery here in France started producing different beers (lager, ambrée, dark beer, wheat beer and IPA) and selling them at 2.50 each for a 50cl bottle. So I bought loads, especially the IPA. And because I had loads in the cellar, and it was cheap, I didn’t think anything of having a beer whenever I felt like it, so I drank loads. At 3 euros, I’d still have bought it, but would be more likely to think ‘ah, I’ll save it as a treat for the weekend’. At 3.50, I wouldn’t buy it.

I was chatting to a guy in the brewery and he said to me ‘sure it’s flying out the door at 2.50, I might as well bump it up to 3 euros’. I made the above point but he didn’t really seem to take it on board, saying something along the lines of ‘well, people who are passionate about beer don’t mind paying a little extra for quality’. In the end, he only bumped it up to 2.70, but I haven’t heard how that’s affected sales.

I suppose the question is whether the brewery aims to sell loads with a smaller margin, or sell less with a higher margin, which is probably the way to go for micro-breweries which by definition have a limited production capacity. I do think there will be a lot of die-off in the market though in the coming years, as people won't pay premium prices for average beer.

the beer revolu

drumswan wrote: »

Those who have invested are looking to clear their debt/recoup their capital investment/grow their reserves as quickly as possible so they price their product at the highest the market will bear.

You don't say??:eek:

I think we've, maybe, established that :rolleyes: