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Pope's idiotic comment.

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    #182
    Bootros Bootros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Bootros Bootros


    K4t wrote: »
    Yes, I am terrified of religion, and with good reason.


    I envisage a life and a society without it. Finally free.

    That couldn't be anything other than a totalitarian society.


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    #183
    Bootros Bootros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Bootros Bootros


    Unlike the popes comments on gay marriage (where completely unshockingly he is opposed) this was a crass statement which he should be ridiculed for.


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    #184
    Bootros Bootros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Bootros Bootros


    ScumLord wrote: »
    That's not the question, we already have laws that tell us that's wrong. Nobody is saying that the terrorists were justified in their actions. What is being said is that their actions were the inevitable result of the magazine taunting them. The magazine made international headlines to promote the fact they were publishing the pictures, we all knew what would happen and it happened.

    You know you start off by saying the terrorists were not justified but then argue that they were. It's of this form of argument.

    Nobody is defending the rapists but what do the scampilly dressed girls expect with their provocative clothing?


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    #185
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Bootros Bootros wrote: »
    That couldn't be anything other than a totalitarian society.
    I disagree. If it happened without force, but by reason and rationale, it would not be a totalitarian society. It of course would require the removal of medieval freedom of speech and expression limits and restrictions so we are going the opposite way in fact.


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    #186
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Bootros Bootros wrote: »
    You know you start off by saying the terrorists were not justified but then argue that they were.
    I'm not arguing they were justified. If you go up to a man and insult his mother, then that man tells you if you say that again I'll hit you. What do you expect to happen if you call him a bollox the second time. I'm not choosing any side I'm just describing what will actually happen in the real world, laws and a sound moralistic positions mean nothing in the reality of the situation and won't change human behaviour.

    It's not like they didn't know that Muslims were upset by the images in fact they played on that outrage to promote their publication. They made sure every Muslim knew it was coming and then they insulted them. I'll defend their right to free speech but saying people have the right to free speech does not mean the real world won't react. The fact is extremists will react and expecting them to take it on the chin given their track record is just naive.

    If they want to publish pictures they can but they should bear in mind that Muslim extremists will react and people may very well die just so they could tell a joke that's sole intention is offence rather than humour.


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    #187
    Bootros Bootros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Bootros Bootros


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I'm not arguing they were justified. If you go up to a man and insult his mother, then that man tells you if you say that again I'll hit you. What do you expect to happen if you call him a bollox the second time. I'm not choosing any side I'm just describing what will actually happen in the real world, laws and a sound moralistic positions mean nothing in the reality of the situation and won't change human behaviour.

    It's not like they didn't know that Muslims were upset by the images in fact they played on that outrage to promote their publication. They made sure every Muslim knew it was coming and then they insulted them. I'll defend their right to free speech but saying people have the right to free speech does not mean the real world won't react. The fact is extremists will react and expecting them to take it on the chin given their track record is just naive.

    If they want to publish pictures they can but they should bear in mind that Muslim extremists will react and people may very well die just so they could tell a joke that's sole intention is offence rather than humour.

    Ok. So basically your are saying that brave people should take the consequences of their free speech. That logic would apply to the atheist blogger in Saudi too wouldn't it? Or the anti-religious through the ages. Or anybody who spoke truth to power.

    In The "real world" islamists might in future get upset or "offended" by gay pubs, or night clubs ( which have been targeted by Islamists) or churches. Or anything. Your arguments is basically to cower before the murdereously offended.


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    #188
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Bootros Bootros wrote: »
    Ok. So basically your are saying that brave people should take the consequences of their free speech. That logic would apply to the atheist blogger in Saudi too wouldn't it? Or the anti-religious through the ages. Or anybody who spoke truth to power.
    Well basically that's an unfortunate result of standing up to a corrupt authority. You will become the focus of their attentions. I'm not saying it's right but it is a fact.
    In The "real world" islamists might in future get upset or "offended" by gay pubs, or night clubs ( which have been targeted by Islamists) or churches. Or anything. Your arguments is basically to cower before the murdereously offended.
    It's not, it's to have some responsibility for your actions. Like I've said I defend their right to publish the pictures, if they want to publish more tomorrow I won't stand in their way. But the fact remains that the day after they publish those pictures Muslim extremists are going to use them as an excuse to murder people.

    Is publishing offensive pictures as a sign of defiance worth some random persons life? It's not like they listen to reason so I don't see why they'd see an offensive picture and be compelled to rethink their whole life philosophy.


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    #189
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30869019

    Six million turn up for mass in Manila.

    It is gratifying to see such an uplifting affirmation of the growth of faith in the world.

    If only we could open the eyes of those benighted theophobes who seem to be so prevalent on this side of the world!


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    #190
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    catallus wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30869019

    Six million turn up for mass in Manila.

    It is gratifying to see such an uplifting affirmation of the growth of faith in the world.

    If only we could open the eyes of those benighted theophobes who seem to be so prevalent on this side of the world!

    The Philipines has a Roman Catholic population of 83 approx, that means the overwhelming majority didn't show up. It's the equivalent of 200,000 of the Irish RC population showing up for a Papal mass here.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #191
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    You really are a "glass half empty" kinda person aren't ya?

    Such arithmetical relativism could only be embraced by a paganistic soul...


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    #192
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    catallus wrote: »
    You really are a "glass half empty" kinda person aren't ya?

    Such arithmetical relativism could only be embraced by a paganistic soul...
    eh, I'm not a pagan :confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #193
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    SW wrote: »
    eh, I'm not a pagan :confused:

    That's so cute.


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    #194
    Montallie
    Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭Montallie


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I'm not arguing they were justified. If you go up to a man and insult his mother, then that man tells you if you say that again I'll hit you.

    But this really is saying they were justified, not in the moral sense but in the instinctive one. As has been said elsewhere on Boards, and in an article the other day by Polly Toynbee, this is the classic wife-beater's defence. She made me do it. She wouldn't stop annoying me. She talked back to me. She did the things I told her not to.

    And I'm beginning to think that some entity has taken over the body of Francis, with his more recent statements about gay marriage being such a contrast to his earlier Who am I to judge? They couldn't get him to go along with them so they put something in his tea.


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    #195
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Bootros Bootros wrote: »
    You know you start off by saying the terrorists were not justified but then argue that they were. It's of this form of argument.

    Nobody is defending the rapists but what do the scampilly dressed girls expect with their provocative clothing?

    That's really not what was said (either by scumlord or the pope).

    They aren't addressing or arguing whether or not violence would be a justified or proportional response. They are aomply speaking to the probability of being met with a violent response.

    if it helps you understand the point better, let's pretend the pope said if you smoke, you can hardly be surprised when you get lung cancer.

    In that instance, nobody would think he was saying you deseve lung cancer - simply that it is more likely to occur.

    In the same way, if you ridicule and offend people, while you don't deserve to be met with a violent response, you must be aware that there is a reasonable prospect you will be met by one.


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    #196
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    He could have been Pope!! But the f.ecking Jesuits have it all sewn up!


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    #197
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,315 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Popey boy is at it again
    Catholics shouldnt be breeding 'like rabbits'
    Women, 3 kids are enough, but don't ye be using no artificial contraception though

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-says-contraception-ban-does-not-mean-breed-like-rabbits-1.2072312


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    #198
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Popey boy is at it again
    Catholics shouldnt be breeding 'like rabbits'
    Women, 3 kids are enough, but don't ye be using no artificial contraception though

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-says-contraception-ban-does-not-mean-breed-like-rabbits-1.2072312

    How did he expect people not to have lots of kids without contraception?


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    #199
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    K4t wrote: »
    It should remain in the past along with its many atrocities. Have you not noticed the worrying trend on boards recently as they have slowly forgotten even the abuse scandals that dominated our news only a couple of years ago, thanks to an apparently "cool" "with the times" "new age" "modern" pope and the fact that we still live in a society where our supposed 'educated youth' are still socially conditioned to just 'accept' religion and the catholic church as it is as culturally pervasive as ever. It is frightening.
    What this pope has done is change people's perception of the RCC/Papacy. He gives a couple of soundbites of meaningless platitudes and people think he's Fr. Trendy even though all he is doing is glossing over the fact that the church is doing exactly what it always has and it's teachings on women, homosexuals, and everything else haven't changed one iota.


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    #200
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Popey boy is at it again
    Catholics shouldnt be breeding 'like rabbits'
    Women, 3 kids are enough, but don't ye be using no artificial contraception though

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-says-contraception-ban-does-not-mean-breed-like-rabbits-1.2072312

    More than three kids and he will come around and punch you in the ovaries.

    Honestly, anyone who takes advice from this piece of Vatican window-dressing needs their head examined.


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    #201
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    catallus wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30869019

    Six million turn up for mass in Manila.

    It is gratifying to see such an uplifting affirmation of the growth of faith in the world.

    If only we could open the eyes of those benighted theophobes who seem to be so prevalent on this side of the world!

    I doubt the Phillipines being religious is a sign of the "growth of faith in the world" to be honest. You saying that just highlights the church's weakening position. Phillipines being religious = dog bites man.


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    #202
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    kylith wrote: »
    What this pope has done is change people's perception of the RCC/Papacy. He gives a couple of soundbites of meaningless platitudes and people think he's Fr. Trendy even though all he is doing is glossing over the fact that the church is doing exactly what it always has and it's teachings on women, homosexuals, and everything else haven't changed one iota.

    Exactly. He is a nice man but to think he got to where he is without being completely in favour of the Church's position over the past few decades is completely naive. Father Trendy is a good analogy, the Church needed a PR boost and this guy was appointed to do just that.


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    #203
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    kylith wrote: »
    What this pope has done is change people's perception of the RCC/Papacy. He gives a couple of soundbites of meaningless platitudes and people think he's Fr. Trendy even though all he is doing is glossing over the fact that the church is doing exactly what it always has and it's teachings on women, homosexuals, and everything else haven't changed one iota.

    I agree, he is still leader of a farce. Even though he might come across as modern thinking initially, eventually he will look as foolish as the farce unless there are major changes within the Roman church.


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    #204
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    kylith wrote: »
    What this pope has done is change people's perception of the RCC/Papacy. He gives a couple of soundbites of meaningless platitudes and people think he's Fr. Trendy even though all he is doing is glossing over the fact that the church is doing exactly what it always has and it's teachings on women, homosexuals, and everything else haven't changed one iota.
    True. He is more dangerous than the religious nut as he hides his true beliefs and intentions and makes the common man forget the institution he represents and has been at the forefront of for most of his life. Extremely dangerous people.


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    #205
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Relevant:
    https://i.imgur.com/VHO5nhq.jpg


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    #206
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    K4t wrote: »
    It should remain in the past along with its many atrocities. Have you not noticed the worrying trend on boards recently as they have slowly forgotten even the abuse scandals that dominated our news only a couple of years ago, thanks to an apparently "cool" "with the times" "new age" "modern" pope and the fact that we still live in a society where our supposed 'educated youth' are still socially conditioned to just 'accept' religion and the catholic church as it is as culturally pervasive as ever. It is frightening.

    If there's been, as you claim, a collective amnesia around the abuse scandals of recent years in relation to the Catholic Church, there appears to be a similar amnesia around all the good work done by the decent and honourable men and women of religious orders over the years (yes, there were many such people) in the areas of establishing health and education facilities and other social services. As one who received a good education in a catholic /religious run school, I never felt that I was being "socially conditioned to accept religion" or that my education was underpinned by a "culturally pervasive" Catholic church culture. Must have missed that bit ! Or maybe I'm just not "cool" enough to appreciate the enlightened intelegensia that would brand all Catholicism and its supporters as unfashionable, evil, malevolent or even frightening ?


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    #207
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    If there's been, as you claim, a collective amnesia around the abuse scandals of recent years in relation to the Catholic Church, there appears to be a similar amnesia around all the good work done by the decent and honourable men and women of religious orders over the years (yes, there were many such people) in the areas of establishing health and education facilities and other social services. As one who received a good education in a catholic /religious run school, I never felt that I was being "socially conditioned to accept religion" or that my education was underpinned by a "culturally pervasive" Catholic church culture. Must have missed that bit ! Or maybe I'm just not "cool" enough to appreciate the enlightened intelegensia that would brand all Catholicism and its supporters as unfashionable, evil, malevolent or even frightening ?

    Forget about the child sex abuse people, Woodville saw none of it


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    #208
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    If there's been, as you claim, a collective amnesia around the abuse scandals of recent years in relation to the Catholic Church, there appears to be a similar amnesia around all the good work done by the decent and honourable men and women of religious orders over the years (yes, there were many such people) in the areas of establishing health and education facilities and other social services. As one who received a good education in a catholic /religious run school, I never felt that I was being "socially conditioned to accept religion" or that my education was underpinned by a "culturally pervasive" Catholic church culture. Must have missed that bit ! Or maybe I'm just not "cool" enough to appreciate the enlightened intelegensia that would brand all Catholicism and its supporters as unfashionable, evil, malevolent or even frightening ?

    I have some sympathy for your position but it is only for those good people who find themselves the victim of prejudice. On a whole if you imagine another fabulously wealthy global organisation that actively concealed child abuse on a similar scale as the Catholic Church or actively protected pedophiles from justice leaving aside the other myriad abuses perpetrated by the Church or its members not only would they be the subject unfriendly popular opinion they would be outlawed, the assets seized and the leaders in jail.


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    #209
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    If there's been, as you claim, a collective amnesia around the abuse scandals of recent years in relation to the Catholic Church, there appears to be a similar amnesia around all the good work done by the decent and honourable men and women of religious orders over the years (yes, there were many such people) in the areas of establishing health and education facilities and other social services.

    You mean the school system which the all-but-priest De Valera handed the RCC on their request?

    It seems weird to me that people seem to think that were it not for the RCC the government wouldn't have supplied so much as a primary school or a hospital in the country.
    Woodville56 wrote: »
    As one who received a good education in a catholic /religious run school, I never felt that I was being "socially conditioned to accept religion" or that my education was underpinned by a "culturally pervasive" Catholic church culture. Must have missed that bit ! Or maybe I'm just not "cool" enough to appreciate the enlightened intelegensia that would brand all Catholicism and its supporters as unfashionable, evil, malevolent or even frightening ?
    If the social conditioning toward religion was not done in schools do you think that there would be a fraction of the number of children making communions and confirmations? Schools preparing children for this makes it the default and a child who does not participate is excluded from their peer group and possibly bullied for being 'different'.


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    #210
    smoking_kills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 488 ✭✭smoking_kills


    If the Pope keeps this up I'm breaking out the alter boy jokes again.


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    #211
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    If there's been, as you claim, a collective amnesia around the abuse scandals of recent years in relation to the Catholic Church, there appears to be a similar amnesia around all the good work done by the decent and honourable men and women of religious orders over the years (yes, there were many such people) in the areas of establishing health and education facilities and other social services. As one who received a good education in a catholic /religious run school, I never felt that I was being "socially conditioned to accept religion" or that my education was underpinned by a "culturally pervasive" Catholic church culture. Must have missed that bit ! Or maybe I'm just not "cool" enough to appreciate the enlightened intelegensia that would brand all Catholicism and its supporters as unfashionable, evil, malevolent or even frightening ?

    I would agree that the church has done many good things at times, and not all church members are evil or wrong doers.

    My criticism of those people though is there absolute failure to take any sort of public stand against the church policies and hierarchy and demand reforms.

    We are told that most Catholics disagree with church policy on many issues including abuse, contraception, HIV prevention, homosexuality, women's rights and their role in the church etc, but when have they ever stood up to be counted on these issues.

    I am aware of some isolated cases censored by the church (there was a priest in Irelanda Few years back and the nuns in the U.S.) but there has been no concerted effort by either the clergy or the lay community to demand change.

    Until they do, I don't think they can properly distance themselves from the actions and policies of the church hierarchy who claim their (tacit) support.


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