Off Topic Thread too point uh

Swiwi.

They never should have been in the euro in the first place. EU broke all its rules to admit them to the currency. It annoys me seeing enda Kenny lecture the Greeks. Ireland should just keep its head down and give thanks not to be Greek rather than take any moral high ground.

I agree the Greeks were hopelessly corrupt inefficient bloated public service etc. They have no chance of recovery without some form of debt write off though IMO.

Podge_irl

You can't give them a debt write off with nothing in return though. They remain stubbornly opposed to the reforms they actually need, such as pensions (for the same reasons of course that the British government is cutting spending on disabled people instead of rich, old people) and the rather inefficient tax system.

Returning to the Drachma and devaluing will hardly help all that much considering it has a massive trade deficit.

Tox56

thomond2006 wrote: »

I never understood the "Let's Burn the Bondholders" argument. It might save money now, but in the long run your reputation and access to credit is gone. That puts an end to any kind of large scale capital expenditure by the state and the Irish banks couldn't function without access to the interbank market.

Or am I talking through my behind?

Me whenever anyone talks about the situation in Greece

molloyjh

Swiwi. wrote: »

They never should have been in the euro in the first place. EU broke all its rules to admit them to the currency. It annoys me seeing enda Kenny lecture the Greeks. Ireland should just keep its head down and give thanks not to be Greek rather than take any moral high ground.

I agree the Greeks were hopelessly corrupt inefficient bloated public service etc. They have no chance of recovery without some form of debt write off though IMO.

They have no chance of recovery unless they get their house in order. There's already been major restructuring of debt to facilitate them. As bad as we were we weren't as bad as the Greeks and we played ball when we had to. It wasn't easy, but you reap what you sow.

I just find it staggering that Greece bankrupted itself, got bailed out to the tune of over 180 billion by Europe and now somehow Europe are the bad guys. It's insane. It's like your brother becoming a junkie, you bailing him out on the condition that he go to rehab and kick the drugs and then him blaming you for his wihdrawal, claiming that he shouldn't have to give up the drugs in the first place. And as bad as they think things are now they'll be worse if they leave and default.

CatFromHue

Why should we give thanks not to be in the Greeks position?

We'd a problem and we dealt with it as best we could, they'd a problem and didn't.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

Why should we give thanks not to be in the Greeks position?

We'd a problem and we dealt with it as best we could, they'd a problem and didn't.

Absolutely.

That's like saying the Leinster should be thankful they're not in Zebre's position...!

Podge_irl

thomond2006 wrote: »

I never understood the "Let's Burn the Bondholders" argument. It might save money now, but in the long run your reputation and access to credit is gone. That puts an end to any kind of large scale capital expenditure by the state and the Irish banks couldn't function without access to the interbank market.

Or am I talking through my behind?

The main issue was with the "unsecured" bondholders - people took that to mean we didn't have to pay them, as if they were somehow optional bonds, which of course is unbelievably stupid.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Absolutely.

That's like saying the Leinster should be thankful they're not in Zebre's position...!

Almost definitely a MOC joke in there somewhere...

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Are they not fairly torn as a people regarding Europe as a whole?

What happens if the Greeks leave (I'm not using that abbreviated term that sounds like it's a celeb couple!) and default? Most of the debt is held by EU Governments so are we talking another economic crisis in Europe?

Is it me or do the Greeks just not want to take responsibility for the fact that they have been grossly mismanaging their country for some time? Do they believe that they should be able to get out from under this without having to pay heavily? If so, that would seem fairly naive to me.

Greece overwhelmingly wants to stay in the EZ. This much is clear.

Ireland loses ~ €3bn in money loaned to Greece
Germany ~ €80bn and then tapers between them. Spain has a large exposure to the ESM and EFSF and is also not doing so hot at the moment, so there's a worry there that there could be spillover and the entire row of dominos comes down. Nobody's really sure.

The other issue is the 'breakability' of the EZ. This is supposed to be an irrecovable currency union. Once that link is broken, there will be elements that seek similar breaks in the chain.

In short. Yes. But it's honestly far more complicated than that. They have not made reforms that other (poorer!) EZ countries have done and so have not shown the solidarity that they are now asking for. The EZ as a whole cannot stomach further debt write offs, and certainly not without undertaking massive reforms to prevent the repetition of the issues.

awec wrote: »

Any golfers among our rugby posters?

(other than Sky Mango Tux)

Me. I'm ****e, but I like an oul wander.

Swiwi. wrote: »

My colleague is Greek and she is firmly in the no camp. They have nothing to lose any more in her words.

She is wrong. Very wrong. I absolutely and whole heartedly understand that desperation leads people to make choices that they'd never consider otherwise, but Greece has got an awful lot left to lose. No amount of scaremongering is of use to anyone, but that statement is patently false.

Saying that, I would not consider myself expert enough in the entire situation to say that exiting the EZ and EU would not be the 'long term' correct choice for many Greeks. However, there's quite a way left for Greece to 'fall', and the EZ is trying to prevent that. Outside, the markets are less sympathetic.

sydthebeat wrote: »

the line from the anti austerity crowd is that greece is actually running at a governing surplus, in that their tax take in covers their daily spend.
if thats true, then really they dont have that much more to loose by playing hard ball for longer.

It's not true. They deferred payments to create a surplus. That's like saying you're liquid cause your bank account has a tenner in it, but your credit card is maxed out.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not true. They deferred payments to create a surplus. That's like saying you're liquid cause your bank account has a tenner in it, but your credit card is maxed out.

the primary surplus i was referring to was without interest payments, so basically their day to day spend is covered, but their debt payments has them completely in the sh!ts.

im just wondering if thats a reason to play hard ball and see their eventual grexit and return of teh drachma

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

the primary surplus i was referring to was without interest payments, so basically their day to day spend is covered, but their debt payments has them completely in the sh!ts.

im just wondering if thats a reason to play hard ball and see their eventual grexit and return of teh drachma

They deffered paying suppliers, nothing to do with interest. It was an accounting trick to get them to post a primary surplus.

Their debt servicing payments are less of a deal than a LOT of euro countries. Ourselves included! It's not the servicing of debt that's causing them any problems at all!

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

They deffered paying suppliers, nothing to do with interest. It was an accounting trick to get them to post a primary surplus.

Did they really think that would do anything!?

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Did they really think that would do anything!?

It did! It allowed them post a primary surplus which meant that they were on target to meet their fiscal targets (allowed them access bailout funds too).

However, since the last recorded primary surplus things have not gone so swimmingly.

Here's an article from December 2014 - The Economic Consequences of Syriza's Alexis Tsipras

Here's a similarly titled one from July 2015 - The Economic consequences of Syriza

They've reneged on almost everything. I don't know how they can turn back at this stage tbh.

This article a quick enough summation of the damage done in the past 5/6 months to the economy. The Cost of Populism

I'd been getting internet off UPC for the last 6 months or so, had no TV subscription, was just using Sky Go and RTE Player and the likes.

So we felt like we were paying over the odds so the missus rang them today. Managed to get the internet speed doubled and Horizon TV for a fiver a month less than what we're paying now. Mad what you can get if you just ask.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

It did! It allowed them post a primary surplus which meant that they were on target to meet their fiscal targets (allowed them access bailout funds too).

However, since the last recorded primary surplus things have not gone so swimmingly.

Here's an article from December 2014 - The Economic Consequences of Syriza's Alexis Tsipras

Here's a similarly titled one from July 2015 - The Economic consequences of Syriza

They've reneged on almost everything. I don't know how they can turn back at this stage tbh.

This article a quick enough summation of the damage done in the past 5/6 months to the economy. The Cost of Populism

Is this basically what would happen if we elected People before Profit alliance crowd or someone similar?

No comment.

Podge_irl

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is this basically what would happen if we elected People before Profit alliance crowd or someone similar?

Turns out people are not a great commodity to pay off debts with.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Turns out people are not a great commodity to pay off debts with.

Tell that to Mark Zuckerberg!

Wang King

awec wrote: »

You from Dublin? What courses are decent?

Whats your handicap?

He's a Leinster fan?

awec

awec wrote: »

Any golfers among our rugby posters?

(other than Sky Mango Tux)

MEMEMEMEMEME

Oh

You were asking about courses earlier in the thread, have you played Corballis? It's one of the better public courses around imo.

awec

Sky Mango Tux wrote: »

MEMEMEMEMEME

Oh

What course do you play?

awec

awec wrote: »

What course do you play?

The Island.

awec

Sky Mango Tux wrote: »

The Island.

I'm not sure if you're joking or not... :pac:

awec

awec wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're joking or not... :pac:

Err... I'm not? Why would that be a joke?

awec

Sky Mango Tux wrote: »

Err... I'm not? Why would that be a joke?

The Island in Donabate?

Isn't that insanely expensive?

awec

awec wrote: »

The Island in Donabate?

Isn't that insanely expensive?

Yes that's the one.

The annual fees aren't that expensive no. There was at one point an extremely large joining fee (not sure what the story is now) but I was a junior member so I didn't have to pay it. The club is owned and run by the members so it's not as if there's someone trying to profit from your fees.

A green fee on the other hand might be €150. Which is a lot.

awec

Sky Mango Tux wrote: »

Yes that's the one.

The annual fees aren't that expensive no. There was at one point an extremely large joining fee (not sure what the story is now) but I was a junior member so I didn't have to pay it. The club is owned and run by the members so it's not as if there's someone trying to profit from your fees.

A green fee on the other hand might be €150. Which is a lot.

Ah I see.

Yea I must have mixed up the joining fee with the annual dues.

150 quid green fees is a lot but I would guess it's not a course you would play regularly if you weren't a member and it's probably a cracking course to be fair.

Podge_irl

I only played pitch & putt and sent the ball backwards.

awec

awec wrote: »

Ah I see.

Yea I must have mixed up the joining fee with the annual dues.

150 quid green fees is a lot but I would guess it's not a course you would play regularly if you weren't a member and it's probably a cracking course to be fair.

The green fee rate is entirely aimed at golf tourists, there's a lot of visitors throughout the summer from the US and the likes. Like I can pull up an upcoming Friday on the timesheet and there's about €10k worth of visitors playing.

I think there are open days and the likes for people who don't want to pay €150 for a round (which I certainly wouldn't be).

awec

Golf tourists from the US, reminds me of the old joke:

American player comes over for a game and on the first tee he hits his tee shot out of bounds.

American: "back in the states we call that a Mulligan. What do you call it here in Ireland?"

Irish player: "Three"