Biometric/ finger print scanning in work

BenEadir

4JAKE wrote: »

But the can of coke won't have my pps number attached to it, or my next of kin, or my bank details

Nor will the clocking in system. It just provides data on each employees time and attendance to the separate payroll system.

Jawgap

4JAKE wrote: »

But the can of coke won't have my pps number attached to it, or my next of kin, or my bank details

No, but the HR Dept will, probably in a filing cabinet or 'secured' under weak encryption on a PC.

DoomZ

Hide behind the post wrote: »

As per the above no image of finger print is ever logged or saved....only a series of numbers .... the algorithm cannot be converted to the image of your finger print.

If that is your concern then you have no valid concern.

Most of what is written here is not valid, misguided and all a bit 'conspiracy theory'.

Oh really, so the data protection site and iccl.ie is conspiracy theory....

Even as a data algorithm, its still personal data that's been gathered, without consent.
And if the employer is not registered, they are breaking the law.

DoomZ

4JAKE wrote: »

The paragraph you quoted, is that on the iccl website?? If so I can't find it lol

Under 'privacy at work'

timetogo

DoomZ wrote: »

Even as a data algorithm, its still personal data that's been gathered, without consent.
And if the employer is not registered, they are breaking the law.

How are they gathering an employees fingerprints without consent?

I presume an employer would be expected to store some employee personal details (address, bank account, pps, next of kin, salary etc.). Can fingerprints not be stored the same way?

Jawgap

from the DPC (forget about the ICCL).......

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/guidance/bio.htm

Mr Frog

4JAKE wrote: »

What is the situation about a clock in system in the work place that is done by Biometric scanning?
I don't feel comfortable with a profile of finger prints being held by a private Employer, I was of the thinking that all credit card transactions etc etc were going to go this route, so I don't like the idea that my prints could be stolen/ lost from a work computer....

Is it legal to do this? Compulsory ?

Ever travel to the U.S.???

DoomZ

BenEadir wrote: »

Your contract may also have a general clause requiring you to adhere to any reasonable requests made by your employer. Has any court deemed a biometric clocking in and out system to be unreasonable?

Nor have they ruled it as 'you have to comply' either.

DoomZ

timetogo wrote: »

How are they gathering an employees fingerprints without consent?

I presume an employer would be expected to store some employee personal details (address, bank account, pps, next of kin, salary etc.). Can fingerprints not be stored the same way?

Simple...its personal data

timetogo

DoomZ wrote: »

Simple...its personal data

Are your bank account number, PPS number personal data?

DoomZ

Listen OP read the links provided here, educate yourself and apply this to your situation.
Do not listen to the tinfoil hats or the pro-1984 groups.

4JAKE

Ok thanks for all the replies.

DoomZ

timetogo wrote: »

Are your bank account number, PPS number personal data?

Educate yourself!!

timetogo

DoomZ wrote: »

Educate yourself!!

Fairly ironic.

Just asking you a question. And as you don't seem to be able to answer. The answer is yes they are personal data.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/What-is-Personal-Data-/210.htm

DoomZ

timetogo wrote: »

Fairly ironic.

Just asking you a question. And as you don't seem to be able to answer. The answer is yes they are personal data.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/What-is-Personal-Data-/210.htm

Wow...well done!!
Oh God, you're painful....
OK here we go "address, bank account, pps" is actually required by a company for processing pay, tax etc..fingerprints are not.

This thread is on fingerprint systems and op rights, not address, pps etc.

timetogo

DoomZ wrote: »

Wow...well done!!
Oh God, you're painful....
OK here we go "address, bank account, pps" is actually required by a company for processing pay, tax etc..fingerprints are not.

This thread is on fingerprint systems and op rights, not address, pps etc.

Sorry. I replied to your post where you said they couldn't store personal data and that they were taking the OPs fingerprints without his / her consent :cool:
You didn't answer how they were doing that either. Don't bother though. Just reply with another "Educate yourself". It's smarter than the other replies.

Hide behind the post

DoomZ wrote: »

Wow...well done!!
Oh God, you're painful....
OK here we go "address, bank account, pps" is actually required by a company for processing pay, tax etc..fingerprints are not.

This thread is on fingerprint systems and op rights, not address, pps etc.

Biometric systems not finger print systems

BenEadir makes a good point - nobody really cares about your "private" data, 4Jake. If the truth be told no one cares about 99.99999% of our personal data except our credit card numbers. And them we gladly share with reckless abandon with shopkeeps, bargirls, hokey e-commerce websites, and over the phone to low paid call centre workers when we go to renew our car insurance/AA membership/subscription to paranoia weekly (delivered to a PO Box of your choosing at no additional cost).

Randy Anders

If it's not in your contract, you don't have to provide a print

The same system came in where I work and a good few people didn't give consent. They ended up using a pin code at the scanner rather than a print. There was no bother about it at all

_Brian

I worked on contract in a Dublin company that used this system, when it was brought in the union resisted but apparently its legal and reasonable system. I wasn't subject to it as I was a contractor but wouldn't have a problem with it..

I'd say you've no grounds on this one and if you have serious issue with it you could look for an alternative employer.

There is a serious problem in some companies still using card clocks where folk clock each other in/out.

Mrs OBumble

_Brian wrote: »

There is a serious problem in some companies still using card clocks where folk clock each other in/out.

Agreed.

But there is a question of proportionality. I don't know if it's been argued in court here or not. But the problem could be fixed in other ways, without needing to collect biometric information.

Eg when I first started work we had to sign in under the eagle eye of an HR person. Fairly recently I worked in a place where the security guard sat by the time clock, (which was on the access door) and at least sometimes did a visual match of the clocking person and the image that flashed up.

harrymagina

Your fingerprints are highly encrypted on the machine which is law. It is impossible for the gaurds, your company to see your fingerprints from this machine.

SpaceTime

My gym uses this system.

Deenie123

It's interesting that the OP is talking about a clocking system being introduced, rather than any sort of access system.

From dataprotection.ie:

2.1 Proportionality

Section 2(1)(c)(iii) of the Data Protection Acts states that data

"shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purpose or purposes for which they were collected or are further processed."

The key word here is "excessive". Accordingly, the first question to be asked when considering the installation of such a system is what is the need for it? Is there a need for a particular system? What is wrong with current systems or less invasive alternatives? As employees have fundamental Human Rights which are protected by the Data Protection Acts, an employer must conduct an assessment of the need for a biometric system and an evaluation of the different types of system before the introduction of any particular system.

Determining what is excessive requires a case-by-case analysis. Some factors which may be taken into account include:

Environment. Does the nature of the workplace require high levels of security? Are there areas containing sensitive information, high value goods or potentially dangerous material which may warrant a higher level of security than would areas with low value goods or areas with complete public access?
Purpose. Can the intended purpose be achieved in a less intrusive way? A biometric system used to control access for security purposes might be more legitimate than a system used by the same employer purely for time management purposes.
Efficiency. Ease of administration may necessitate the introduction of a system where other less invasive systems have failed, or proved to be prohibitively expensive to run.
Reliability. If an employer suffers as a result of untrustworthy staff, impersonating each other for various reasons, then a system may be justified as long as other less invasive ones have been assessed and reasonably rejected.

Clock cards may not be secure, but employee held chip and pin cards seem far more proportionate than actually taking someone's fingerprints just to log what time they start and finish work at!

And there is a difference between going to the USA and having your prints taken for that and having your employer hold your fingerprints. Firstly, going to the USA the prints are being held in what can be assumed as a relatively secure system. Secondly, going to the USA is, for the most part, optional. There's unfair pressure to consent to biometric systems if you feel like your employer will hold it against you. It may not feel optional. Again, ODPC deals with this:

Section 2(1)(a) of the Acts require that

"The data or, as the case may be, the information constituting the data shall have been obtained, and the data shall be processed, fairly".

In order to demonstrate compliance with this provision, at least one of the provisions of Section 2A of the Acts must be met. These include

Employee consent,
Where the performance is necessary for the performance of a contract to which the data subject is party,
For compliance with a legal obligation to which the employer is subject,
Where the processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the employer or by a third party or parties to whom the data are disclosed, except where the processing is unwarranted in any particular case by reason of prejudice to the fundamental rights and freedoms or legitimate interests of the data subject.
Consent is not generally a satisfactory legitimiser in an employment context, as it can be argued that consent is not freely given. However, if an employer offers a biometric as an option, then consent may be seen to be freely given.

I'd be inclined to say that the OP's employer hasn't really disclosed any particular reason whereby biometric systems appear to be proportionate to the purpose, nor does it seem to be done fairly.

The reality of raising that with your employer.... That's a different matter. If you do want to resist it, I'd be inclined to use the language that the data protection commissioner uses.

"I'm not happy to consent to this, I'm not satisfied that that it's a fair use of my biometrics and I don't think it's proportionate to require biometric data just for clocking in when a chip and pin card would be just as effective."

Then if you want to report it they've had to give their excuses for those specific items you raise.

Frigga_92

4JAKE wrote: »

What is the situation about a clock in system in the work place that is done by Biometric scanning?
I don't feel comfortable with a profile of finger prints being held by a private Employer, I was of the thinking that all credit card transactions etc etc were going to go this route, so I don't like the idea that my prints could be stolen/ lost from a work computer....

Is it legal to do this? Compulsory ?

My husband works in Engineering and the company he works for use finger print scanning for clocking in and for some areas in the building, although the majority of the doors are opened by all the different keys he has.
The main reason he was given for using finger print scanning was to keep an eye on time keeping and make sure nobody was clocking anybody in or out.

He was asked in his interview and on his first day if he had any problem with the finger print scanning and he said no. He has seen other people in the company with clock in and out cards so they obviously have two systems. The card system appears to be for the office staff and management and the finger print scanning appears to be for the engineering staff, although managers etc use both systems when they are going around the whole building.

I have previously worked in two very large offices that used swipe cards and everyone used to go through an unbelievable amount of them, they were always showing faults. If there was a problem with your card, you'd have to go down to IT, give back faulty card, have a new card matched up with your info and then synced up with whatever department you were in (for new employees their cards would only given them access to their own floor and the admin floor) and this could take 15 minutes out of your morning when you could be working away.
On the other hand, my husband has worked in his current job for 4 months and he hasn't had a single problem clocking in and out.

garhjw

Sounds like a good excuse for whatever Union to go on strike. Get over yourselves people, nothing wrong with using biometric id.

Fantastic that some people have nothing else to whine about

LegacyUser

I'm not surprised your employer wants to go biometric. Where I work there is a computerised form of attendance recording. However all sorts of scamming going on which can be broken down into 4 categories:
(1) Staff remotely logging in from home or their smart phone to record their attendance. Technically you need to log in from a computer within the intranet to gain access to the attendance software but staff are able to fool the system using remote login software to access their work computers
(2) Staff clocking each other in and out.
(3) Staff going home early or coming in late and asking the line manager to authorise a manual clocking for them pretending the forgot to clock
(4) Staff clocking in, going home and returning in the evening to clock out

Biometric recording severely hampers this kind of scamming. Anyone who does an honest days work should have no problem with it.

4JAKE

rather not say for this wrote: »

I'm not surprised your employer wants to go biometric. Where I work there is a computerised form of attendance recording. However all sorts of scamming going on which can be broken down into 4 categories:
(1) Staff remotely logging in from home or their smart phone to record their attendance. Technically you need to log in from a computer within the intranet to gain access to the attendance software but staff are able to fool the system using remote login software to access their work computers
(2) Staff clocking each other in and out.
(3) Staff going home early or coming in late and asking the line manager to authorise a manual clocking for them pretending the forgot to clock
(4) Staff clocking in, going home and returning in the evening to clock out

Biometric recording severely hampers this kind of scamming. Anyone who does an honest days work should have no problem with it.

The fact that I do an honest days work and don't scam the current system is the exact reason why I take offence to this system being forced on me...

The only benefit of finger printing over card or pin is that it's impossible to scam.... And this is the only reason that it is being implemented in my work place, it is not for access, it is located inside the premises, the premises is completely open to everyone, no restricted areas, no sensitive information, no high value objects that can be stolen...

The employer has said that they have been made aware of some clock in and out irregularities by certain employees...

My argument here is that it's a small enough number of employees, 30-40 max that clock on and out, it's not like Dell or something.... So go and deal with these people directly and fire them, it's plainly stated that it's a sackable offence to tamper with clock cards....

So stop taking the lazy management approach.
And instead of intruding into my and other decent employees privacy to stop the 1 or 2 that are scamming...do their job and deal with the offenders....

And actually aswell as the lazy aspect, the offenders are probably more than likely people they depend on far too much and the managment doesn't want to approach them and "UPSET" them.... So put in a preventative measure rather than dealing with the problem..

It's nothing to do with the B/S statement made above about looking for reason to strike... Some people just haven't a clue.

curiosity

4JAKE wrote: »

The fact that I do an honest days work and don't scam the current system is the exact reason why I take offence to this system being forced on me...

The only benefit of finger printing over card or pin is that it's impossible to scam.... And this is the only reason that it is being implemented in my work place, it is not for access, it is located inside the premises, the premises is completely open to everyone, no restricted areas, no sensitive information, no high value objects that can be stolen...

The employer has said that they have been made aware of some clock in and out irregularities by certain employees...

My argument here is that it's a small enough number of employees, 30-40 max that clock on and out, it's not like Dell or something.... So go and deal with these people directly and fire them, it's plainly stated that it's a sackable offence to tamper with clock cards....

So stop taking the lazy management approach.
And instead of intruding into my and other decent employees privacy to stop the 1 or 2 that are scamming...do their job and deal with the offenders....

And actually aswell as the lazy aspect, the offenders are probably more than likely people they depend on far too much and the managment doesn't want to approach them and "UPSET" them.... So put in a preventative measure rather than dealing with the problem..

It's nothing to do with the B/S statement made above about looking for reason to strike... Some people just haven't a clue.

Does it not bother you that some of your co-workers may be scamming the system? From an employers point of view, it would be hard to detect, but easy to prevent by introducing the fingerprint system you refer to.

4JAKE

Bother me???
It bothers me that I am tarred with the same brush after 20 yrs of never taking 1 cent.. It never doing anything wrong clock in and out wise.
It bothers me that the company won't deal with it and sack the people... Especially when I know the reasons and it comes down to who they actually are

It bothers me that these people don't get punished, and a finger print system is forced on every innocent person so the bad ones are not able to scam anymore