Biometric/ finger print scanning in work

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 9:35pm #1

What is the situation about a clock in system in the work place that is done by Biometric scanning?
I don't feel comfortable with a profile of finger prints being held by a private Employer, I was of the thinking that all credit card transactions etc etc were going to go this route, so I don't like the idea that my prints could be stolen/ lost from a work computer....

Is it legal to do this? Compulsory ?

markad1 · 07-01-2015 9:42pm

If the fingerprint is held on the device or a database it has data protection requirements to be met.

If the fingerprint is held on a smart card that you present to the device and the fingerprint on the card is matched against your finger on the scanner it's usually ok.

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 9:47pm

As far as I'm aware it's a case of scanning your hand every time.. As it is an attempt to stop people clocking other peoples cards... I have no issue with it from that point of view.... It's the idea of my prints being stored on a computer by them that's a concern.

Is it a commonly used system in Ireland?

markad1 · 07-01-2015 9:52pm

It's getting more common.
If your print is held on a pc data protection conditions should be met.
http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Biometrics-in-the-workplace-/244.htm

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 10:02pm

Am I obliged to do this? I mean can I just say that I dont want my print stored on the system in work or do I have no say in this

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 10:06pm

I'm sure I read somewhere that they 'maybe' have to provide another system if a person does not want to use this system... But if its in a work contract, you may have no choice.

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 10:09pm

There wouldn't be any specific mention of this type of clocking in system, my contract is old so was in place a long time before this brain wave happened

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 10:09pm

4JAKE wrote: »

Am I obliged to do this? I mean can I just say that I dont want my print stored on the system in work or do I have no say in this

You have a reasonable right to privacy at work... Personally I wouldn't allow my prints to be held by my employer, no matter what security was in place.
My fingerprints are my property.

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 10:12pm

Yeah I'm not wanting to be awkward about it but it's getting a bit too serious when it comes to prints, especially if point of sales and Social welfare etc etc go the biometric route..

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 10:14pm

www.iccl.ie

"You must give your consent before your employer can take your fingerprints. Your consent must be real. This means that your employer must not treat you any differently if you do not agree to have your fingerprints taken.
Your employer should assess whether fingerprinting is necessary, as there may be simpler ways to get the same results.
Any fingerprint system must obey data protection law. If you have any questions or concerns about the introduction of a fingerprinting system, you can contact the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner or any of the organisations or people listed at the end of this pack"

markad1 · 07-01-2015 10:14pm

I've see most concerns regarding the use of biometrics with staff resolved with HR and Unions.

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 10:15pm

4JAKE wrote: »

Yeah I'm not wanting to be awkward about it but it's getting a bit too serious when it comes to prints, especially if point of sales and Social welfare etc etc go the biometric route..

Is there anything in your work contract about giving your consent?

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 10:18pm

markad1 wrote: »

I've see most concerns regarding the use of biometrics with staff resolved with HR and Unions.

Don't fully expect either to have your best interests at heart, both generally go for a 'deal' ...do your own research.
Stick by your rights.

markad1 · 07-01-2015 10:18pm

I'll also say the majority of systems I've seen use the smart card for storing the print. That way you have the digital print not your employer.
The card should also be encrypted so your print can't be copied.

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 10:19pm

4JAKE wrote: »

There wouldn't be any specific mention of this type of clocking in system, my contract is old so was in place a long time before this brain wave happened

Tell them to take a hike so...

markad1 · 07-01-2015 10:19pm

DoomZ wrote: »

Don't fully expect either to have your best interests at heart, both generally go for a 'deal' ...do your own research.
Stick by your rights.

I won't argue with you there.

krissovo · 07-01-2015 10:19pm

In biometric IT systems your prints are not stored as such on computer, a few reference points that are unique in the system are saved in a algorithm. These are not images but binary code and not able to be used outside that specific system.

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 10:20pm

In what way were they resolved? My employers are not the type that would respect or have any thought for this kind of personal data.. If someone was going to get a warning, chances are the rest if factory would know before the person involved...
I've seen them replace the computer system before and give the old ones away or office staff taking them home...

So it's not very confidence inspiring

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 10:22pm

DoomZ wrote: »

Is there anything in your work contract about giving your consent?

My contract would have been based on the system that was there, a swipe card.. And all it would say is to not tamper or clock someone elses. And that I must clock in and out appropriately

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 10:33pm

Doesn't mean that's its OK, just because they updated a system. Card swipe is not the same as fingerprint scanner, tell them 'you're sticking to the card, thanks'
Remember that your employer has fecked up already by assuming they have the 'right' to take your print, digital or otherwise, especially if they are not registered to do so.
Read some of the cases/ article's on the Data Protection Comissioner website

Hide behind the post · 07-01-2015 10:37pm

krissovo wrote: »

In biometric IT systems your prints are not stored as such on computer, a few reference points that are unique in the system are saved in a algorithm. These are not images but binary code and not able to be used outside that specific system.

As per the above no image of finger print is ever logged or saved....only a series of numbers .... the algorithm cannot be converted to the image of your finger print.

If that is your concern then you have no valid concern.

Most of what is written here is not valid, misguided and all a bit 'conspiracy theory'.

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 10:37pm

The paragraph you quoted, is that on the iccl website?? If so I can't find it lol

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 10:41pm

Hide behind the post wrote: »

As per the above no image of finger print is ever logged or saved....only a series of numbers .... the algorithm cannot be converted to the image of your finger print.

If that is your concern then you have no valid concern.

Most of what is written here is not valid, misguided and all a bit 'conspiracy theory'.

My only concern is that my Prints are at risk of being stolen or not appropriately protected and get to the wrong hands... If there is nothing that can happen to them then I have no concerns

Hide behind the post · 07-01-2015 10:46pm

4JAKE wrote: »

My only concern is that my Prints are at risk of being stolen or not appropriately protected and get to the wrong hands... If there is nothing that can happen to them then I have no concerns

Nothing can happen them, finger print is not stored.

Quazzie · 07-01-2015 10:46pm

4JAKE wrote: »

My only concern is that my Prints are at risk of being stolen or not appropriately protected and get to the wrong hands... If there is nothing that can happen to them then I have no concerns

10100 11110 00011 11000 00111

Is that your print?

markad1 · 07-01-2015 10:53pm

Hide behind the post wrote: »

As per the above no image of finger print is ever logged or saved....only a series of numbers .... the algorithm cannot be converted to the image of your finger print.

If that is your concern then you have no valid concern.

Most of what is written here is not valid, misguided and all a bit 'conspiracy theory'.

Depends on the system.
I've seen the records with an image of the fingerprint saved against the details of the person.

BenEadir · 07-01-2015 10:55pm

DoomZ wrote: »

You have a reasonable right to privacy at work... Personally I wouldn't allow my prints to be held by my employer, no matter what security was in place.
My fingerprints are my property.

Would you agree to a photo ID card where the image is used and stored by your employer? If so why?

BenEadir · 07-01-2015 10:57pm

4JAKE wrote: »

My only concern is that my Prints are at risk of being stolen or not appropriately protected and get to the wrong hands... If there is nothing that can happen to them then I have no concerns

Anyone who picks up a cup, glass or can of Coke after you've finished with it can "steal" your fingerprints and much easier than breaking into an encrypted database.

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 10:58pm

Knowing my employer, and the lack of respect and responsibility that would be there towards employee information, it will probably be the cheapest and most unsecure system that will be installed..

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 10:59pm

But the can of coke won't have my pps number attached to it, or my next of kin, or my bank details

BenEadir · 07-01-2015 10:59pm

4JAKE wrote: »

My contract would have been based on the system that was there, a swipe card.. And all it would say is to not tamper or clock someone elses. And that I must clock in and out appropriately

Your contract may also have a general clause requiring you to adhere to any reasonable requests made by your employer. Has any court deemed a biometric clocking in and out system to be unreasonable?

BenEadir · 07-01-2015 11:02pm

4JAKE wrote: »

But the can of coke won't have my pps number attached to it, or my next of kin, or my bank details

Nor will the clocking in system. It just provides data on each employees time and attendance to the separate payroll system.

Jawgap · 07-01-2015 11:04pm

4JAKE wrote: »

But the can of coke won't have my pps number attached to it, or my next of kin, or my bank details

No, but the HR Dept will, probably in a filing cabinet or 'secured' under weak encryption on a PC.

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 11:05pm

Hide behind the post wrote: »

As per the above no image of finger print is ever logged or saved....only a series of numbers .... the algorithm cannot be converted to the image of your finger print.

If that is your concern then you have no valid concern.

Most of what is written here is not valid, misguided and all a bit 'conspiracy theory'.

Oh really, so the data protection site and iccl.ie is conspiracy theory....

Even as a data algorithm, its still personal data that's been gathered, without consent.
And if the employer is not registered, they are breaking the law.

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 11:06pm

4JAKE wrote: »

The paragraph you quoted, is that on the iccl website?? If so I can't find it lol

Under 'privacy at work'

timetogo · 07-01-2015 11:07pm

DoomZ wrote: »

Even as a data algorithm, its still personal data that's been gathered, without consent.
And if the employer is not registered, they are breaking the law.

How are they gathering an employees fingerprints without consent?

I presume an employer would be expected to store some employee personal details (address, bank account, pps, next of kin, salary etc.). Can fingerprints not be stored the same way?

Jawgap · 07-01-2015 11:08pm

from the DPC (forget about the ICCL).......

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/guidance/bio.htm

Mr Frog · 07-01-2015 11:08pm

4JAKE wrote: »

What is the situation about a clock in system in the work place that is done by Biometric scanning?
I don't feel comfortable with a profile of finger prints being held by a private Employer, I was of the thinking that all credit card transactions etc etc were going to go this route, so I don't like the idea that my prints could be stolen/ lost from a work computer....

Is it legal to do this? Compulsory ?

Ever travel to the U.S.???

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 11:09pm

BenEadir wrote: »

Your contract may also have a general clause requiring you to adhere to any reasonable requests made by your employer. Has any court deemed a biometric clocking in and out system to be unreasonable?

Nor have they ruled it as 'you have to comply' either.

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 11:10pm

timetogo wrote: »

How are they gathering an employees fingerprints without consent?

I presume an employer would be expected to store some employee personal details (address, bank account, pps, next of kin, salary etc.). Can fingerprints not be stored the same way?

Simple...its personal data

timetogo · 07-01-2015 11:11pm

DoomZ wrote: »

Simple...its personal data

Are your bank account number, PPS number personal data?

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 11:14pm

Listen OP read the links provided here, educate yourself and apply this to your situation.
Do not listen to the tinfoil hats or the pro-1984 groups.

4JAKE · 07-01-2015 11:16pm

Ok thanks for all the replies.

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 11:16pm

timetogo wrote: »

Are your bank account number, PPS number personal data?

Educate yourself!!

timetogo · 07-01-2015 11:17pm

DoomZ wrote: »

Educate yourself!!

Fairly ironic.

Just asking you a question. And as you don't seem to be able to answer. The answer is yes they are personal data.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/What-is-Personal-Data-/210.htm

DoomZ · 07-01-2015 11:22pm

timetogo wrote: »

Fairly ironic.

Just asking you a question. And as you don't seem to be able to answer. The answer is yes they are personal data.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/What-is-Personal-Data-/210.htm

Wow...well done!!
Oh God, you're painful....
OK here we go "address, bank account, pps" is actually required by a company for processing pay, tax etc..fingerprints are not.

This thread is on fingerprint systems and op rights, not address, pps etc.

timetogo · 07-01-2015 11:27pm

DoomZ wrote: »

Wow...well done!!
Oh God, you're painful....
OK here we go "address, bank account, pps" is actually required by a company for processing pay, tax etc..fingerprints are not.

This thread is on fingerprint systems and op rights, not address, pps etc.

Sorry. I replied to your post where you said they couldn't store personal data and that they were taking the OPs fingerprints without his / her consent :cool:
You didn't answer how they were doing that either. Don't bother though. Just reply with another "Educate yourself". It's smarter than the other replies.

Hide behind the post · 07-01-2015 11:29pm

DoomZ wrote: »

Wow...well done!!
Oh God, you're painful....
OK here we go "address, bank account, pps" is actually required by a company for processing pay, tax etc..fingerprints are not.

This thread is on fingerprint systems and op rights, not address, pps etc.

Biometric systems not finger print systems

07-01-2015 11:41pm

BenEadir makes a good point - nobody really cares about your "private" data, 4Jake. If the truth be told no one cares about 99.99999% of our personal data except our credit card numbers. And them we gladly share with reckless abandon with shopkeeps, bargirls, hokey e-commerce websites, and over the phone to low paid call centre workers when we go to renew our car insurance/AA membership/subscription to paranoia weekly (delivered to a PO Box of your choosing at no additional cost).

Randy Anders · 07-01-2015 11:50pm

If it's not in your contract, you don't have to provide a print

The same system came in where I work and a good few people didn't give consent. They ended up using a pin code at the scanner rather than a print. There was no bother about it at all

_Brian · 08-01-2015 9:31am

I worked on contract in a Dublin company that used this system, when it was brought in the union resisted but apparently its legal and reasonable system. I wasn't subject to it as I was a contractor but wouldn't have a problem with it..

I'd say you've no grounds on this one and if you have serious issue with it you could look for an alternative employer.

There is a serious problem in some companies still using card clocks where folk clock each other in/out.

Biometric/ finger print scanning in work

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