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Biometric/ finger print scanning in work

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  • 07-01-2015 10:35pm
    #1
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭


    What is the situation about a clock in system in the work place that is done by Biometric scanning?
    I don't feel comfortable with a profile of finger prints being held by a private Employer, I was of the thinking that all credit card transactions etc etc were going to go this route, so I don't like the idea that my prints could be stolen/ lost from a work computer....

    Is it legal to do this? Compulsory ?


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    #2
    markad1
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭markad1


    If the fingerprint is held on the device or a database it has data protection requirements to be met.

    If the fingerprint is held on a smart card that you present to the device and the fingerprint on the card is matched against your finger on the scanner it's usually ok.


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    #3
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    As far as I'm aware it's a case of scanning your hand every time.. As it is an attempt to stop people clocking other peoples cards... I have no issue with it from that point of view.... It's the idea of my prints being stored on a computer by them that's a concern.

    Is it a commonly used system in Ireland?


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    #4
    markad1
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭markad1


    It's getting more common.
    If your print is held on a pc data protection conditions should be met.
    http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Biometrics-in-the-workplace-/244.htm


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    #5
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    Am I obliged to do this? I mean can I just say that I dont want my print stored on the system in work or do I have no say in this


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    #6
    DoomZ
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 166 ✭✭DoomZ


    I'm sure I read somewhere that they 'maybe' have to provide another system if a person does not want to use this system... But if its in a work contract, you may have no choice.


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    #7
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    There wouldn't be any specific mention of this type of clocking in system, my contract is old so was in place a long time before this brain wave happened


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    #8
    DoomZ
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 166 ✭✭DoomZ


    4JAKE wrote: »
    Am I obliged to do this? I mean can I just say that I dont want my print stored on the system in work or do I have no say in this

    You have a reasonable right to privacy at work... Personally I wouldn't allow my prints to be held by my employer, no matter what security was in place.
    My fingerprints are my property.


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    #9
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    Yeah I'm not wanting to be awkward about it but it's getting a bit too serious when it comes to prints, especially if point of sales and Social welfare etc etc go the biometric route..


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    #10
    DoomZ
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 166 ✭✭DoomZ


    www.iccl.ie

    "You must give your consent before your employer can take your fingerprints. Your consent must be real. This means that your employer must not treat you any differently if you do not agree to have your fingerprints taken.
    Your employer should assess whether fingerprinting is necessary, as there may be simpler ways to get the same results.
    Any fingerprint system must obey data protection law. If you have any questions or concerns about the introduction of a fingerprinting system, you can contact the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner or any of the organisations or people listed at the end of this pack"


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    #11
    markad1
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭markad1


    I've see most concerns regarding the use of biometrics with staff resolved with HR and Unions.


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    #12
    DoomZ
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 166 ✭✭DoomZ


    4JAKE wrote: »
    Yeah I'm not wanting to be awkward about it but it's getting a bit too serious when it comes to prints, especially if point of sales and Social welfare etc etc go the biometric route..

    Is there anything in your work contract about giving your consent?


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    #13
    DoomZ
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 166 ✭✭DoomZ


    markad1 wrote: »
    I've see most concerns regarding the use of biometrics with staff resolved with HR and Unions.

    Don't fully expect either to have your best interests at heart, both generally go for a 'deal' ...do your own research.
    Stick by your rights.


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    #14
    markad1
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭markad1


    I'll also say the majority of systems I've seen use the smart card for storing the print. That way you have the digital print not your employer.
    The card should also be encrypted so your print can't be copied.


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    #15
    DoomZ
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 166 ✭✭DoomZ


    4JAKE wrote: »
    There wouldn't be any specific mention of this type of clocking in system, my contract is old so was in place a long time before this brain wave happened

    Tell them to take a hike so...


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    #16
    markad1
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭markad1


    DoomZ wrote: »
    Don't fully expect either to have your best interests at heart, both generally go for a 'deal' ...do your own research.
    Stick by your rights.

    I won't argue with you there.


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    #17
    krissovo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    In biometric IT systems your prints are not stored as such on computer, a few reference points that are unique in the system are saved in a algorithm. These are not images but binary code and not able to be used outside that specific system.


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    #18
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    In what way were they resolved? My employers are not the type that would respect or have any thought for this kind of personal data.. If someone was going to get a warning, chances are the rest if factory would know before the person involved...
    I've seen them replace the computer system before and give the old ones away or office staff taking them home...

    So it's not very confidence inspiring


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    #19
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    DoomZ wrote: »
    Is there anything in your work contract about giving your consent?

    My contract would have been based on the system that was there, a swipe card.. And all it would say is to not tamper or clock someone elses. And that I must clock in and out appropriately


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    #20
    DoomZ
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 166 ✭✭DoomZ


    Doesn't mean that's its OK, just because they updated a system. Card swipe is not the same as fingerprint scanner, tell them 'you're sticking to the card, thanks'
    Remember that your employer has fecked up already by assuming they have the 'right' to take your print, digital or otherwise, especially if they are not registered to do so.
    Read some of the cases/ article's on the Data Protection Comissioner website


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    #21
    Hide behind the post
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Hide behind the post


    krissovo wrote: »
    In biometric IT systems your prints are not stored as such on computer, a few reference points that are unique in the system are saved in a algorithm. These are not images but binary code and not able to be used outside that specific system.


    As per the above no image of finger print is ever logged or saved....only a series of numbers .... the algorithm cannot be converted to the image of your finger print.

    If that is your concern then you have no valid concern.

    Most of what is written here is not valid, misguided and all a bit 'conspiracy theory'.


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    #22
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    The paragraph you quoted, is that on the iccl website?? If so I can't find it lol


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    #23
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    Hide behind the post wrote: »
    As per the above no image of finger print is ever logged or saved....only a series of numbers .... the algorithm cannot be converted to the image of your finger print.

    If that is your concern then you have no valid concern.

    Most of what is written here is not valid, misguided and all a bit 'conspiracy theory'.

    My only concern is that my Prints are at risk of being stolen or not appropriately protected and get to the wrong hands... If there is nothing that can happen to them then I have no concerns


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    #24
    Hide behind the post
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Hide behind the post


    4JAKE wrote: »
    My only concern is that my Prints are at risk of being stolen or not appropriately protected and get to the wrong hands... If there is nothing that can happen to them then I have no concerns

    Nothing can happen them, finger print is not stored.


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    #25
    Quazzie
    Registered Users Posts: 28,872 ✭✭✭✭Quazzie


    4JAKE wrote: »
    My only concern is that my Prints are at risk of being stolen or not appropriately protected and get to the wrong hands... If there is nothing that can happen to them then I have no concerns

    10100 11110 00011 11000 00111

    Is that your print?


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    #26
    markad1
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭markad1


    Hide behind the post wrote: »
    As per the above no image of finger print is ever logged or saved....only a series of numbers .... the algorithm cannot be converted to the image of your finger print.

    If that is your concern then you have no valid concern.

    Most of what is written here is not valid, misguided and all a bit 'conspiracy theory'.

    Depends on the system.
    I've seen the records with an image of the fingerprint saved against the details of the person.


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    #27
    BenEadir
    Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    DoomZ wrote: »
    You have a reasonable right to privacy at work... Personally I wouldn't allow my prints to be held by my employer, no matter what security was in place.
    My fingerprints are my property.

    Would you agree to a photo ID card where the image is used and stored by your employer? If so why?


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    #28
    BenEadir
    Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    4JAKE wrote: »
    My only concern is that my Prints are at risk of being stolen or not appropriately protected and get to the wrong hands... If there is nothing that can happen to them then I have no concerns

    Anyone who picks up a cup, glass or can of Coke after you've finished with it can "steal" your fingerprints and much easier than breaking into an encrypted database.


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    #29
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    Knowing my employer, and the lack of respect and responsibility that would be there towards employee information, it will probably be the cheapest and most unsecure system that will be installed..


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    #30
    4JAKE
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭4JAKE


    But the can of coke won't have my pps number attached to it, or my next of kin, or my bank details


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    #31
    BenEadir
    Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    4JAKE wrote: »
    My contract would have been based on the system that was there, a swipe card.. And all it would say is to not tamper or clock someone elses. And that I must clock in and out appropriately

    Your contract may also have a general clause requiring you to adhere to any reasonable requests made by your employer. Has any court deemed a biometric clocking in and out system to be unreasonable?


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