Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

Terry5135

CramCycle wrote: »

My advice, follow the rules, don't be a dick, and leave early so you don't get annoyed over non issues.

Good advice. Ok. I only came to discuss the new laws and fines. But these have not arrived. As usual, people seem more concerned with attitude than the subject.

Fine by me. I wish you all luck on the roads.

Beasty

Terry5135 wrote: »

It's obvious that cyclists are simply pig headed and hate motorists.

More comments like this any your access to the forum will be very short-lived

Terry5135 wrote: »

All the more reason to avoid cycling two abreast. The reason it's a law in other countries is for the cyclist safety, not cyclist stifling.

This thread is about new enforcement laws for existing offences. Talking about whether it's appropriate to ride 2 abreast is not only off-topic but has been done to death within the forum. If you wish to discuss the fact these laws can now be enforced via FPNs that's fine. Please refrain from going into other areas - this thread was on its last legs before you started a new one on the topic and going over old ground yet again is pointless and will in all likelihood result in the closure of the thread

Any questions PM me - do not respond in-thread

tomasrojo

Cyclist.ie had a meeting with Gardaí.

We certainly acknowledge the logic in tackling careless cycling. However, we are still very concerned that the more serious issues of motor vehicles exceeding speed limits, overtaking closely/dangerously and fly-parking in cycle tracks are not being addressed in a way that will make Irish roads safe and attractive environments in which to walk or cycle for people of all ages and abilities. We did get a clear sense that they are much more favourable to ignoring certain motor vehicle infractions (discretionary policing), in order to ‘keep business moving’, rather than considering the issue of a safer environments for all road users. They appear to have a very car-centric view of traffic management.

It was clear that FCNs are coming in on 1st August and will be fully implemented.

http://cyclist.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/GardaFCNMeeting-15-07-15_D%C3%93T-CR.pdf

cjt156

Terry5135 wrote: »

It's obvious that cyclists are simply pig headed and hate motorists.

Yep, we have to sign an affirmation to that effect in our own blood before we are allowed swing a leg over a saddle.

Or maybe, just maybe, most of us are cyclists and motorists? And pedestrians for that matter.
And while most of us (cyclists, motorists et al) try to adhere to the rules while on the roads, some of us are dickheads and do not. Some of us have a moment of madness and do something stupid they later regret.

Perhaps if we all try to stick to the laws pertaining to our chosen mode of transport we won't all seem so pig headed and hateful.

Whatchya reckon? Now com'ere give us a hug!

CramCycle

cjt156 wrote: »

Yep, we have to sign an affirmation to that effect in our own blood before we are allowed swing a leg over a saddle.

MOD VOICE: The post you are responding to already has a mod warning, please do not respond to it in thread. Thanks.

tunney

As its been said before its all in the enforcement. It will be big for a week or two and then back to nothing.

whisky_galore

tunney wrote: »

As its been said before its all in the enforcement. It will be big for a week or two and then back to nothing.

There will be bugger-all enforcement, unless you (almost literally) run into a cop.

The only way to get people back into line is, like drink driving, make it socially unacceptable within cycling circles to break the law. I'll wager you can still drive 1000's of miles around the country day after day without ever coming across a Garda drink-driving checkpoint. The chances of getting caught are pretty slim. But people aren't going driving home with pints on board anymore, or at least it's very much frowned upon.

tomasrojo

whisky_galore wrote: »

The only way to get people back into line is, like drink driving, make it socially unacceptable within cycling circles to break the law.

But what are "cycling circles"? It's not a confraternity. You can't issue an edict to the regional chapters, who pass it on to the members. It's just a big, disparate population of people who sometimes use bikes, many of whom don't even know many other people who ever use a bike.

whisky_galore wrote: »

I'll wager you can still drive 1000's of miles around the country day after day without ever coming across a Garda drink-driving checkpoint. The chances of getting caught are pretty slim. But people aren't going driving home with pints on board anymore, or at least it's very much frowned upon.

Off-topic, chances of you getting caught are pretty good in urban areas, where it is more strictly enforced. The amount of it going on in rural areas is hard to know.

tunney

whisky_galore wrote: »

There will be bugger-all enforcement, unless you (almost literally) run into a cop.

The only way to get people back into line is, like drink driving, make it socially unacceptable within cycling circles to break the law. I'll wager you can still drive 1000's of miles around the country day after day without ever coming across a Garda drink-driving checkpoint. The chances of getting caught are pretty slim. But people aren't going driving home with pints on board anymore, or at least it's very much frowned upon.

Most of the people who break red lights are people who ride a bike to work, very different to members of "cycling circles".

If anything the simplicity of the FPN would make me more likely to break a red light.

km991148

Just curious.. presumably a pedestrian pushing a bike is not defined as a 'cyclist'?

i.e. if walking down grafton st for example with the bike I am not going to get some over zealous gardai looking to take 40 quid off me?

tomasrojo

Pretty sure that's fine. I have had members of the public tick me off for it though.

km991148

tomasrojo wrote: »

Pretty sure that's fine. I have had members of the public tick me off for it.

ye.. I have been known the odd time to get off and push across traffic lights (very rarely ride through reds) and get some looks from other pedestrians doing the same 'jaywalk' as me..

Never thought much of it before.. but may be good excuse to take 40euro!

whisky_galore

tomasrojo wrote: »

But what are "cycling circles"? It's not a confraternity. You can't issue an edict to the regional chapters, who pass it on to the members. It's just a big, disparate population of people who sometimes use bikes, many of whom don't even know many other people who ever use a bike.



Off-topic, chances of you getting caught are pretty good in urban areas, where it is more strictly enforced. The amount of it going on in rural areas is hard to know.

I don't mean a formal organisation, like every motorist isn't a motorhead or a member of the AA. Aren't motorists just as 'disparate'?

Jawgap

tunney wrote: »

As its been said before its all in the enforcement. It will be big for a week or two and then back to nothing.

Not even that - a lot of Guards I've spoken to roll their eyes to heaven when you mention the impending arrival of the FCNs. They reckon they'll be plagued with people complaining to go ticket cyclists.

My brother - a Gaurd - was telling me recently how one of his colleagues was 'accosted' by a taxi driver demanding that the cyclists who had just broken a red light right in front of him be pursued and ticketed.........thing is, said Garda was in the middle of arresting a dealer who he had just chased after he was seen slapping a 'client' around! I think the driver concerned was genuinely bemused as to why the Guard wasn't off to chase the cyclists!

I'd say there'll be some enforcement on the lack of lights come October and other than that, unless you either break a light or cycle on the footpath in a very reckless fashion the Guards won't be bothering.

I wonder how soon after the 1st of August there'll be a thread started by someone who got a ticket and is feeling aggrieved - like the ones that occasionally crop in motors regarding speeding?

tomasrojo

whisky_galore wrote: »

I don't mean a formal organisation, like every motorist isn't a motorhead or a member of the AA. Aren't motorists just as 'disparate'?

No, very different. Most people who habitually use cars know many, many people who habitually do the same; maybe even most people they know are habitual car-users. Most are members of motoring organisations (if only for breakdown service and so on).

The problem with the analogy is also that drink-driving is very clearly morally wrong, if you look at how many people are killed or injured by it. Red-light jumping, in contrast, is mostly harmless, just very irritating. It's harder to persuade people that it's not just a peccadillo to indulge in it.

check_six

One odd thing I have only just realised is that ll the media coverage regarding these fines seem to be strongly suggesting that the offences rather than the method of penalty are completely brand new.

Would I be free therefore to go on a rampage between now and the end of the month and claim that the laws don't apply till August? Blaming the media, naturally, when I was caught?

tunney

whisky_galore wrote: »

I don't mean a formal organisation, like every motorist isn't a motorhead or a member of the AA. Aren't motorists just as 'disparate'?

I'm a member of the AA. Does this mean I part of a close net community that discusses the dos and don'ts of motoring?

I'm not a member of Motorsport Ireland.

Motorsport Ireland versus AA - which one do YOU think is a "motoring circle"?

tunney

Jawgap wrote: »

Not even that - a lot of Guards I've spoken to roll their eyes to heaven when you mention the impending arrival of the FCNs. They reckon they'll be plagued with people complaining to go ticket cyclists.

My brother - a Gaurd - was telling me recently how one of his colleagues was 'accosted' by a taxi driver demanding that the cyclists who had just broken a red light right in front of him be pursued and ticketed.........thing is, said Garda was in the middle of arresting a dealer who he had just chased after he was seen slapping a 'client' around! I think the driver concerned was genuinely bemused as to why the Guard wasn't off to chase the cyclists!

I'd say there'll be some enforcement on the lack of lights come October and other than that, unless you either break a light or cycle on the footpath in a very reckless fashion the Guards won't be bothering.

I wonder how soon after the 1st of August there'll be a thread started by someone who got a ticket and is feeling aggrieved - like the ones that occasionally crop in motors regarding speeding?

To be honest the only thing stopping me breaking red lights was having to take time off work to go to court.
If I saved 3 minutes each way on my commute thats 30 minutes a week.

Is my time worth the odd €40 fine - definitely.

check_six

tomasrojo wrote: »

No, very different. Most people who habitually use cars know many, many people who habitually do the same; maybe even most people they know are habitual car-users.

I'd go along with this. Go to any event and strike up a conversation about the traffic on the way there, getting stuck behind a tractor, etc. You will get a group of people expressing an opinion. Talk about the cycle there, and you're going to get blank expressions. Even bleedin' "drive-time" radio has the likes of yer man ranting and raving about other road users to 100,000 listeners (or whatever the number is) many of whom are driving while listening.

Much more of a community for motorists.

Jawgap

tunney wrote: »

To be honest the only thing stopping me breaking red lights was having to take time off work to go to court.
If I saved 3 minutes each way on my commute thats 30 minutes a week.

Is my time worth the odd €40 fine - definitely.

Hmmmm.......never looked at it that way:)

Looking at my strava and comparing elapsed and moving times, there is a definite economic argument to be made for being a bit more flexible around red lights!

tunney

tunney wrote: »

To be honest the only thing stopping me breaking red lights was having to take time off work to go to court.
If I saved 3 minutes each way on my commute thats 30 minutes a week.

Is my time worth the odd €40 fine - definitely.

So what you are trying to say is the €40 fixed penalty notice has given an incentive to break the lights?

That's an interesting way to look at it.

CramCycle

I can't make sense of that logic, you only ended up in court if there was a drive (ie you really should have seen the gardai standing en masse at the corners),if you were blatantly dangerous and risk oblivious as you sailed through (in front of a Garda) and more importantly, in the majority of cases, only if you were a d1ck when pulled over about it. Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir and you were on your way with a warning.

If anything else the court date and fine was a tax on stupidity and pratty behaviour.

Now the Garda has an easy way to deal with it so if time permits, they can look better on paper, most won't unless your being stupid as above but some will. There will definitely be more people fined than went to court but seeing it as an encouragement to break lights, not a hope. At best its an encouragement to be more aware of your surroundings, and less stupid which if nothing else, is a benefit.

uck51js9zml2yt

Jawgap wrote: »

Hmmmm.......never looked at it that way:)

Looking at my strava and comparing elapsed and moving times, there is a definite economic argument to be made for being a bit more flexible around red lights!

There is also am argument for not breaking a red light which has the potential to get you killed and destroy both your families lives and the lives of the driver and his/ her family.
The amount of times I've hesitated going through a green light only to see some suicidal idiot breaking a red on his bike/car and potentially causing a crash...won't call it an accident as the person breaking the red is guilty of reckless endangerment.

Jawgap

Audrina Clean Maple wrote: »

There is also am argument for not breaking a red light which has the potential to get you killed and destroy both your families lives and the lives of the driver and his/ her family.
The amount of times I've hesitated going through a green light only to see some suicidal idiot breaking a red on his bike/car and potentially causing a crash...won't call it an accident as the person breaking the red is guilty of reckless endangerment.

:eek:

Lots of things have the potential to get you killed, I don't jump lights, but I reckon even if I did I doubt the increase in risk would even be measurable.

CramCycle

Jawgap wrote: »

:eek:

Lots of things have the potential to get you killed, I don't jump lights, but I reckon even if I did I doubt the increase in risk would even be measurable.

Same here, I don't do it but if I did, presuming I looked around and wasn't a muppet, I doubt it would increase my risk by any measurable factor.

My main reason for being against RLJing is the idiocy of some who currently do it and think they are safe enough (both motorists and cyclists). If Irish road users increased the median of common sense over the next few years, my opinion on whether it should be allowable in certain situations could change dramatically.

Jawgap

CramCycle wrote: »

Same here, I don't do it but if I did, presuming I looked around and wasn't a muppet, I doubt it would increase my risk by any measurable factor.

My main reason for being against RLJing is the idiocy of some who currently do it and think they are safe enough (both motorists and cyclists). If Irish road users increased the median of common sense over the next few years, my opinion on whether it should be allowable in certain situations could change dramatically.

Yeah, belting through a four-way junction at full tilt is indeed suicidal, but having a look and going if it's clear (or slipping around the corner) is completely different.

Generally I don't do it around the city because of all the other idiots and because it's a bad habit to get into - can't honesty say I'm as scrupulous at 0630 coming through Balbriggan (even at the lights there at the Garda station);)

But if economic considerations were a factor my calculation would be based on

40P > TR

where

40 is the amount of fine in Euros
P is the probability of getting caught
T is the amount of time saved by jumping lights
R is my hourly fee rate

At any given red light, if 40P is greater than TR then it makes economic sense to obey the lights. However, if TR > 40P then there's a clear economic incentive to bowl on through

It will be interesting to plot P over the next few months!

rubadub

whisky_galore wrote: »

The only way to get people back into line is, like drink driving, make it socially unacceptable within cycling circles to break the law.

I perceive dangerous cycling to be socially unacceptable to people. Breaking the law is certainly not though, as its often done in a safe or benign manner, or often more safe than obeying the law, people doing acts which are not what the law actually set out to prevent.

e.g. if a pedestrian is being chased by a mugger or big dog and illegally crosses at a red man on a totally empty road, then this is illegal, but I don't think its socially unacceptable and I would hope the gardai would not prosecute them or that people would frown upon the act.

I cannot think of a similar instance where being over the drink driving limit would not be an act that the law set out to prevent. Unless some obscure technicality existed e.g. a guy with 1 pint going out to his car to open the boot and could somehow be done.

If there was an absolute zero tolerance on drink driving I think many cases would be socially acceptable, e.g. eating a meal with a dash of red wine added to it with trace alcohol left in it. Technically illegal but not what the law set out to prevent.

Buchaill_Mor

I am waiting on the YouTube video of George Hook holding Roco the Courrier's handlebars while shouting at the top of his voice some guff about citizens arrest. As an aside , anyone else spot George Wednesday evening stopped in the pedestrian crossing outside the College of Surgeons residence in his Brown Mercedes E class waiting on traffic that had already cleared while eyeing up some young ladies, preventing pedestrians with buggies crossing at that point? Reckon that is a regular occourance.

check_six

Buchaill_Mor wrote: »

As an aside , anyone else spot George Wednesday evening stopped in the pedestrian crossing outside the College of Surgeons residence in his Brown Mercedes E class waiting on traffic that had already cleared while eyeing up some young ladies, preventing pedestrians with buggies crossing at that point?

Well no, but one of the evenings this week he did claim to have got a bike on the BTW scheme which quite surprised me.

CramCycle

check_six wrote: »

Well no, but one of the evenings this week he did claim to have got a bike on the BTW scheme which quite surprised me.

He lets the facade slip sometimes, I can't believe he hates people he does not know as much as he claims, he'd be dead from the stress if that was the case. It's a job, being a crank gets him paid, nothing more.