Toddler shoots parent dead in Super Market

Egginacup

I'm going to vehemently stand by my post and demand a cogent answer.

IF you have to go to some place where you deem a gun might be required then why would you bring a child?

2011

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you can't carry it around with you concealed or otherwise in public though.

You are correct, (I never suggested otherwise).

MadsL

Egginacup wrote: »

I'm going to vehemently stand by my post and demand a cogent answer.

IF you have to go to some place where you deem a gun might be required then why would you bring a child?

The obvious answer is that assaults and abductions are not unusual in public places. A friend of mine, a woman in her 50s, had to fight off someone who snatched her bag in a Walmart parking lot the other day.

The alternative that you are positing is that one should not bring children anywhere there is a risk. In whch case you are never putting them in the car since they also have a risk of death being in the car.

I don't much blame a mother for carrying when alone with her child, I do blame her for being careless with her purse.

MadsL

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you can't carry it around with you concealed or otherwise in public though. That particular bit of of lunacy hasn't reached our shores.

Concealed carry is permitted in Northern Ireland.

Melodeon

2011 wrote: »

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you can't carry it around with you concealed or otherwise in public though. That particular bit of of lunacy hasn't reached our shores.

You are correct, (I never suggested otherwise).

The Irish Firearm Certificate specifically states:
"You are hereby authorised to have in your possession, use and carry a <FIREARM TYPE> of <FIREARM CALIBRE> bearing the serial number <FIREARM SERIAL NUMBER> subject to any conditions which have been applied and advised."
Civilian held firearms in Ireland may only be licensed for target shooting or hunting, so provided you're engaged in or going to or from these activities, it's perfectly legal to be in possession of a firearm in public.
Irish Firearm Certificates are NOT issued for the purpose of self defence, so carrying or possessing a firearm for that purpose is illegal.

Witcher

Melodeon wrote: »

The Irish Firearm Certificate specifically states:
"You are hereby authorised to have in your possession, use and carry a <FIREARM TYPE> of <FIREARM CALIBRE> bearing the serial number <FIREARM SERIAL NUMBER> subject to any conditions which have been applied and advised."
Civilian held firearms in Ireland may only be licensed for target shooting or hunting, so provided you're engaged in or going to or from these activities, it's perfectly legal to be in possession of a firearm in public.
Irish Firearm Certificates are NOT issued for the purpose of self defence, so carrying or possessing a firearm for that purpose is illegal.

Nobody said they were issued for self defence.

BattleCorp

Egginacup wrote: »

I'm going to vehemently stand by my post and demand a cogent answer.

IF you have to go to some place where you deem a gun might be required then why would you bring a child?

You could be in danger pretty much anywhere in America so the woman was well within her rights to bring the gun with her when she was shopping. In my mind there's no issue there.

The problem is that she was very careless with the firearm. And for that she paid the ultimate price.

Guns are ok if people know what they are doing and are responsible with the firearm.

Unfortunately this isn't always the case.

I lived in the American south for many years. Texas in particular .

Have been in many places where there were guns present. I know in some restaraunts in TX, you just checked in your gun, like a coat. Whether that has changed I dont know.

Never bothered me any.

2011

Melodeon wrote: »

Civilian held firearms in Ireland may only be licensed for target shooting or hunting, so provided you're engaged in or going to or from these activities, it's perfectly legal to be in possession of a firearm in public.

I have been a target shooter in Ireland for over 20 years. Let me assure you if I were to walk down O' Connel street with my licensed rifle I would be arrested rapidly and rightly so.

Examples of carrying any of my firearms in public that are permitted are pretty much limited to bringing my rifle from my safe and placing it into the boot of my car when I am going to the range.

Heckler

2011 wrote: »

I have been a target shooter in Ireland for over 20 years. Let me assure you if I were to walk down O' Connel street with my licensed rifle I would be arrested rapidly and rightly so.

Examples of carrying any of my firearms in public that are permitted are pretty much limited to bringing my rifle from my safe and placing it into the boot of my car when I am going to the range.

Not being argumentative but I'm a target shooter too and my firearms go in the boot as well. However if you need to get public transport with your firearm once it's in a case or a slip and then you need to walk a bit to where you shoot I believe this is perfectly within the rights of your licence. Obviously an uncased firearm is a different story.

jimboblep

Heckler wrote: »

Not being argumentative but I'm a target shooter too and my firearms go in the boot as well. However if you need to get public transport with your firearm once it's in a case or a slip and then you need to walk a bit to where you shoot I believe this is perfectly within the rights of your licence. Obviously an uncased firearm is a different story.

Im open to correction but its my understanding that you cant take a firearm unto public transport cased or uncased, not sure if its legislation or garda guidelines.
I seem to remember something about it

sh1tstirrer

jimboblep wrote: »

Im open to correction but its my understanding that you cant take a firearm unto public transport cased or uncased, not sure if its legislation or garda guidelines.
I seem to remember something about it

You cannot even have an imitation firearm in public.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/cp/ireland

Manic Moran

Aineoil wrote: »

Strange culture. I don't understand the way Americans like to wear guns so publicly.

Depends on the State. In some States it's more difficult to get a permit to carry concealed, so they carry open. Also depends on weather, concealing a sidearm when wearing just shorts and T-shirt can be tricky.

In the olden days, only criminal or dastardly types wore their firearms concealed, which is why one had to get a permit to do it while leaving open carry unpermitted. These days it's acknowledged that depending on where you are, being seen wearing a sidearm can cause reactions varying from "Oh my God, he's got a gun" to "Huh. A 1911", so it is up to the State legislatures to decide which of the two forms of carry is more acceptable in their State.

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Really? And these are on sale to the general public?

Generally speaking, a properly handled and maintained firearm needs no external safety, and multiple weapons now are sold without them. There are internal safeties which require the pull of the trigger to release, so snags, drops etc won't discharge the weapon. (My SIG has four of them, as I recall). A safety is a sop, a concession to poor firearms handling and control. They can also be accidentally disengaged.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

One case over 30 years ago? My point stands that it is not a common enough occurrence to warrant carrying a gun in case you have to prevent an abduction. It's probably more likely that a person would be shot with their own weapon than save a child's life.

"Probably"? Must we return to the Defensive Gun Use figures?

StudentDad wrote: »

I do not know if this has been suggested before. Probably has. I would restrict the right of private citizens carry firearms, esp handguns. Put simply I would make it a criminal offence to carry a weapon concealed or otherwise onto property or premises either in public or private ownership where the general public has routine or otherwise unfettered access. I would also hold the owners of such properties strictly liable for any damages that flowed from the breach of such laws.

Unlikely to pass legal muster in the US. Quoting the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals when they threw out the law of the last State which had a blanket prohibition on carrying firearms:

Twenty-first century Illinois has no hostile Indians. But a Chicagoan is a good deal more likely to be attacked on a sidewalk in a rough neighborhood than in his apartment on the 35th floor of the Park Tower. A woman who is being stalked or has obtained a protective order against a violent ex-husband is more vulnerable to being attacked while walking to or from her home than when inside. She has a stronger self-defense claim to be allowed to carry a gun in public than the resident of a fancy apartment building (complete with
doorman) has a claim to sleep with a loaded gun under her mattress

Heckler

jimboblep wrote: »

Im open to correction but its my understanding that you cant take a firearm unto public transport cased or uncased, not sure if its legislation or garda guidelines.
I seem to remember something about it

I'll probably stand corrected but I don't think you're right. People travel the country to take part in competitions and not all have private cars. How about people traveling by air with a firearm ? They will have to at least walk through an airport to a waiting vehicle be it a bus, train, taxi etc.

My licence conditions state quote "authorised to have in your possession, use and carry a..." etc. Subject to advised conditions. No mention of public places.

What about someone buying a gun or bringing one to a gunsmith for some work ? are they expected to stop the car right at the door and sneak it in ?

Plenty of reasons why someone might have a firearm in public. Again once its cased I don't see any problem. Obviously someone strolling down the street with an open rifle on his back deserves all the Garda attention he'll get.

2011

Heckler wrote: »

People travel the country to take part in competitions and not all have private cars.

They do, but it does not follow that they are permitted to carry a firearm on a public bus! I feel that the risk of being "relieved" of said firearm is unacceptably high.

How about people traveling by air with a firearm ? They will have to at least walk through an airport to a waiting vehicle be it a bus, train, taxi etc.

I have done this from Dublin airport without using public transport.
Technically a taxi is not defined as public transport.

My licence conditions state quote "authorised to have in your possession, use and carry a..." etc. Subject to advised conditions. No mention of public places.

It does not say that you can't walk into a bank or school with a firearm either, but that does not mean it is permitted or advisable.

In Ireland those of us with licensed firearms are expected to act in a responsible manner.

Heckler

2011 wrote: »

They do, but it does not follow that they are permitted to carry a firearm on a public bus! I feel that the risk of being "relieved" of said firearm is unacceptably high.



I have done this from Dublin airport without using public transport.
Technically a taxi is not defined as public transport.



It does not say that you can't walk into a bank or school with a firearm either, but that does not mean it is permitted or advisable.

In Ireland those of us with licensed firearms are expected to act in a responsible manner.

And we all do for the most part. I've bought a hard shell rifle case from a sports shop and walked home with it. No firearm in it but noone knew that. Where in law does it say someone can't transport a firearm in public ?

When people travel to national competitions and stay in hotels or B&Bs where do they store their firearms ?

bjork

Heckler wrote: »

And we all do for the most part. I've bought a hard shell rifle case from a sports shop and walked home with it. No firearm in it but noone knew that. Where in law does it say someone can't transport a firearm in public ?

When people travel to national competitions and stay in hotels or B&Bs where do they store their firearms ?

In their fire sleeves

Grayson

2011 wrote: »

In Ireland those of us with licensed firearms are expected to act in a responsible manner.

Thats the difference between here and the states. People jump through hoops to get a gun here. they're highly motivated and have a huge interest in them. They are going to be far more knowledgeable than the average american. And most will be careful not to tarnish the reputation of gun owners.

Plus all the guns used here are designed for a specific purpose. target shooting, hunting etc. Good luck trying to get a license for an AK47 in Ireland.
There's many weapons which were designed for the sole purpose of killing another human (like the AK-47). You'd be hard pressed to give a legal reason why you need a gun like that here.

Heckler

Grayson wrote: »

Thats the difference between here and the states. People jump through hoops to get a gun here. they're highly motivated and have a huge interest in them. They are going to be far more knowledgeable than the average american. And most will be careful not to tarnish the reputation of gun owners.

Plus all the guns used here are designed for a specific purpose. target shooting, hunting etc. Good luck trying to get a license for an AK47 in Ireland.
There's many weapons which were designed for the sole purpose of killing another human (like the AK-47). You'd be hard pressed to give a legal reason why you need a gun like that here.

Agreed. Especially with the tarnishing of reputation. Everytime I hear of a gun related incident here I just think thats another nail in the coffin for responsible firearms owners.

volchitsa

Heckler wrote: »

Agreed. Especially with the tarnishing of reputation. Everytime I hear of a gun related incident here I just think thats another nail in the coffin for responsible firearms owners.

This woman was a responsible person apparently - in any case a nuclear scientist (scary if she is below the average for acting responsibly!).

So maybe we need to stop automatically calling people stupid whenever these accidents happen, and accept that people, even responsible people, make mistakes, and that it is unfair to talk about tarnishing reputations, or "irresponsible" vs "responsible" firearms owners?

eeepaulo

Just reading on the guardian website

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/01/idaho-walmart-shooting-fatal-combination-children-guns

Organizations like Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America advocate for stronger laws to punish adults if they fail to store a gun safely and a child is able to access it. Just under 30 states and the District of Columbia have laws that hold gun owners criminally liable if children get hold of their guns, though nearly half of those states require proof that the owner intentionally, knowingly or recklessly gave the child a gun, according to a report by Everytown for Gun Safety and Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America.

The National Rifle Association has long opposed safe-storage laws, arguing that such measures address an inconsequential problem.

If im reading this correctly, only about 15 states say that gun owners are responsible if negligent in storing guns? That cant be right can it?

Dravokivich

eeepaulo wrote: »

Just reading on the guardian website

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/01/idaho-walmart-shooting-fatal-combination-children-guns



If im reading this correctly, only about 15 states say that gun owners are responsible if negligent in storing guns? That cant be right can it?

No. Its 30, where negligence is assumed in 15 once a child gets a hold of the gun and has to be proven/displayed in the other 15 in regards to whether or not a resonable effort was made to prevent the childs access to the gun.

Calibos

Poes law is working its way into the gun debate.

(Poes law is generally used in relation to religion where satire can be mistaken for sincere argument because of how bat**** crazy some religious beliefs can be.)

According to today's papers, the father is defending his responsible gun ownership because he bought the wife a handbag with a specially designed zipped gun pouch. No doubt about to start litigation against the manufacturer because his 2 year old can work the zipper. He's such a responsible gun owner that he took it upon himself to begin instruction early. He has instructed his 2 year old in responsible gun use and already begun teaching him how to shoot properly.......his 2 YEAR OLD....

I've a feeling the working in nuclear research to differentiate them from trailer trash angle is a red herring and it'll turn out they are janitors at the facility.

Witcher

Calibos wrote: »

I've a feeling the working in nuclear research to differentiate them from trailer trash angle is a red herring and it'll turn out they are janitors at the facility.

She had a degree in chemistry and had published articles...so I don't think she was a janitor.

Egginacup

digital ninja wrote: »

a tragic event,just waiting for uninformed people to attack american culture and gun rights.

Nah, people are attacking stupidity and those who defend stupidity.

aaakev

2011 wrote: »

They do, but it does not follow that they are permitted to carry a firearm on a public bus! I feel that the risk of being "relieved" of said firearm is unacceptably high.



I have done this from Dublin airport without using public transport.
Technically a taxi is not defined as public transport.



It does not say that you can't walk into a bank or school with a firearm either, but that does not mean it is permitted or advisable.

In Ireland those of us with licensed firearms are expected to act in a responsible manner.

Your ether making things up or are misinformed. You are perfectly entitled to csrry your gun in public in ireland and will only run into trouble if you threatened someone or were acting the prick.

My main hunting land is about a 10 minute walk from my house and there is often no where to park so i walk from my house, through the estate and along a busy main road passed loads of houses and just round the corner from the garda station with my rifle over my shoulder. If im doing this i take the bolt out and have it in my pocket. Iv met tye guards on a number of occasions and all i get is a wave, first couple of times they slowed down amd had a look but never stopped.

I also got reported one day by a woman who drove past me and went straight to the garda station, they knew it was me obviously and told the woman not to worry about it that there was nothing bad happening. I was told this by her daughter.

There are plenty of lads, young lads especially who are keen hunters and dont drive so slimg their rifle or shotgun over their shoulder and cycle to their stomping ground which could brimg them through their local town its been discussed in the shooting forum before

eeepaulo

Dravokivich wrote: »

No. Its 30, where negligence is assumed in 15 once a child gets a hold of the gun and has to be proven/displayed in the other 15 in regards to whether or not a resonable effort was made to prevent the childs access to the gun.

Just been reading elsewhere

http://smartgunlaws.org/child-access-prevention-policy-summary/

1. Laws Imposing Criminal Liability when a Child Gains Access as a Result of Negligent Storage of a Firearm: Fourteen states and the District of Columbia, have laws that impose criminal liability on persons who negligently store firearms, where minors could or do gain access to the firearm. Typically, these laws apply whenever the person “knows or reasonably should know” that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm.

2. States Preventing Persons from Intentionally, Knowingly and/or Recklessly Providing Firearms to Minors: Several states impose a weaker standard for criminal liability when a child is allowed to access a firearm. Fourteen prohibit persons from intentionally, knowingly, and/or recklessly providing some or all firearms to children

The second group appear to be given access to the firearms, not through negligence.

MadsL

Grayson wrote: »

Good luck trying to get a license for an AK47 in Ireland.
There's many weapons which were designed for the sole purpose of killing another human (like the AK-47). You'd be hard pressed to give a legal reason why you need a gun like that here.

I'm open to correction but as far as I am aware the AK in semi-auto form is considered for licencing in Ireland, as is the AR-15. There are AR-15 owners in Ireland, I believe there may be one or two AKs.

MadsL

Egginacup wrote: »

Nah, people are attacking stupidity and those who defend stupidity.

The designers of the 'secure' carry pocket in this purse?

jimboblep

MadsL wrote: »

I'm open to correction but as far as I am aware the AK in semi-auto form is considered for licencing in Ireland, as is the AR-15. There are AR-15 owners in Ireland, I believe there may be one or two AKs.

Seen one guy with an AR in the club I shoot in, and have definitely heard about a guy with an AK type, iirc he had to go to the high court to get a cert for it, probably not worth the hassle imo