Advertisement
How to add spoiler tags, edit posts, add images etc. How to - a user's guide to the new version of Boards
Mods please check the Moderators Group for an important update on Mod tools. If you do not have access to the group, please PM Niamh. Thanks!

Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

11011121315

Comments



  • You pulled these up - if you researched this properly, why not expalin the context?

    I pulled them up to prove that Islam sees women as less than equal to men. It did. It's there in black and white.

    If you claim it can be explained other than the way it's written, feel free. Clearly you can't.




  • I was just about to exit the forum when I saw your response. Does the bible not also promulgate the same things that you mention about in the Quran?




  • You can't pull random passages out of the Qu'ran without looking at them in context. People always get this wrong. I am absolutely certain that if you actually googled those and read up you would get your answer, yet you demand answers of muslims and muslim allies or else you paint the whole religion as misogynist.

    Show me a Christian/Secular society where men and women are perfectly equal.

    Earlier in this thread those points were discussed and put in context and argued about, and no convincing answer emerged. Why would non Muslims not ask Muslims for answers about their religion, who else is there to ask? We (non-Muslims) have been told numerous times that you have to be a Muslim scholar to understand the quotations, but sadly no Muslim scholar has been on to give us a definitive answer.

    In the meantime where is the equality in punishing a victim of rape, apparently for merely existing and being available to be raped?

    And this is a discussion about Islam, in the Islam forum, answering questions about Christian society would be pointless and off topic.




  • I was just about to exit the forum when I saw your response. Does the bible not also promulgate the same things that you mention about in the Quran?

    Some of the same things. Not to the same degree. And Christians contextualise, the vast majority don't believe - can't believe, since the Bible is full of undeniable contradictions - that is the inerrant and unchallengeable word of God, but rather that it is inspired by God.




  • katydid wrote: »
    Some of the same things. Not to the same degree. And Christians contextualise, the vast majority don't believe - can't believe, since the Bible is full of undeniable contradictions - that is the inerrant and unchallengeable word of God, but rather that it is inspired by God.

    There are many Christians in the US whom I've met and all over the world who would disagree with your premise - they who believe that the Bible is the wholly truthful written word of God and do not believe anything other than that. The word inerrant does not come into their domain.Are there not Muslims whom contextualization of the Qu'ran applies to?


  • Advertisement


  • There are many Christians in the US whom I've met and all over the world who would disagree with your premise - they who believe that the Bible is the wholly truthful written word of God and do not believe anything other than that. The word inerrant does not come into their domain.Are there not Muslims whom contextualization of the Qu'ran applies to?

    They can believe what they want. The contradictions and discrepancies in the Bible make it clear that it can't be taken literally.

    Some Muslims do contextualise the Qur'an; I'd be delighted to hear the contextualisation for the inequality of women in the passages I quoted. The person I responded to, who was claiming it can be contextualised, has been twisting and turning and using every excuse in the book to avoid explaining what she means. Because, I suspect, she has no idea.




  • And so to bed now. Best wishes Katydid. May the force be with you.Bless all good people wherever they are.




  • And so to bed now. Best wishes Katydid. May the force be with you.Bless all good people wherever they are.

    Night!




  • looksee wrote: »
    Earlier in this thread those points were discussed and put in context and argued about, and no convincing answer emerged. Why would non Muslims not ask Muslims for answers about their religion, who else is there to ask? We (non-Muslims) have been told numerous times that you have to be a Muslim scholar to understand the quotations, but sadly no Muslim scholar has been on to give us a definitive answer.

    In the meantime where is the equality in punishing a victim of rape, apparently for merely existing and being available to be raped?

    And this is a discussion about Islam, in the Islam forum, answering questions about Christian society would be pointless and off topic.

    You're not asking questions in an attempt to be educated. They are loaded questions. You're basically saying "You're misogynistic, prove me wrong."

    Also, shouldn't an Islam forum be a safe space for muslims given there are so few? Ireland is a particularly difficult country to be muslim in. Nobody should be taking an accusatory tone in here.




  • Also assuming nobody here has heard of Queen Khadijah of the Maldives. She didn't let any man tell her what to do. Some real Game of Thrones stuff here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_of_the_Maldives

    Please familiarise yourself with the etiquette of the forum. Quoting Wikipedia articles is not the done thing on this forum as it is too unreliable. So please find a reputable source to back up your claim.




  • Advertisement


  • You're not asking questions in an attempt to be educated. They are loaded questions. You're basically saying "You're misogynistic, prove me wrong."

    Also, shouldn't an Islam forum be a safe space for muslims given there are so few? Ireland is a particularly difficult country to be muslim in. Nobody should be taking an accusatory tone in here.

    I am sorry if you feel that the questions are loaded and accusatory. I was responding to your suggestion that we should do some research. If you read the thread you will see that all research offered is dismissed with 'only scholars can give information' type answers, which doesn't get us any further.And now you are saying that we can find answers by googling?

    I agree that the Islam forum should be a safe place for Muslims to communicate in. However this thread about women in Islam has been running for a good while and is still open, so is apparently appropriate. If it were left just for Muslims to agree with each other that everything is fine in regard to women in Islam then it would be a short thread.

    I for one would sincerely like to know about the topic, but there has not yet been a convincing reply. I am willing to accept that Muslim women are happy to be covered, and restricted from driving, going about unaccompanied, etc, but no Muslim woman has come on yet and explained how being fully veiled in a non-Muslim society helps them integrate and become part of the community they have chosen to join. Or any of the other issues we raise.

    If the Muslims who post on here said, yes, the Quran says we should do these things, but we understand that it is a book of guidelines that are inevitably outdated in many respects, so we abide by the spirit of Islam rather than trying to live in a way more appropriate to the time it was written, I would find it easier to understand. Instead though there is an insistence that every word be unarguable, which leads to situations that are by modern standards patently unjust. I for one would just like to understand how individual Muslims can live with this.

    The Christian bible can be said to be the same, and I dispute that too. But there really are not too many Christians insisting on abiding by centuries old rulings about 'an eye for an eye' and even where they are, civil law makes sure those people do not apply these rulings. Agreed there are factions in the US who want to teach creationism, and have some state backing, this is wrong but does not begin to compare with the violence and injustice we are seeing that is done in the name of Islam.

    When The Troubles in Ireland were at their height some horrible things were done in the name of one faction or the other, and a frequent phrase was 'ah well you have to understand the background' as if this made it ok to kill and maim people. The same argument seems to be being used in Islam - this is all ok if you understand the context.

    We can argue the Christian aspects in another thread though, this one is about Islam and saying 'what about' is just an attempt to deflect the argument.

    Please, don't send us off to do our own research, we have been told this is not sufficient. Explain to us, even if it is just your own view, how Islam gives equality to women, especially in reference to the points that have been raised (inheritance, women's legal evidence, etc)




  • You're not asking questions in an attempt to be educated. They are loaded questions. You're basically saying "You're misogynistic, prove me wrong."

    Also, shouldn't an Islam forum be a safe space for muslims given there are so few? Ireland is a particularly difficult country to be muslim in. Nobody should be taking an accusatory tone in here.

    Hi Molly, Is Ireland a difficult country for muslims compared to other predominantly christian countries? I would have thought otherwise but then I do not walk in your shoes.




  • Most of the anti-LGBTQ values present in the Muslim world actually come from western colonialist values that were absorbed into their cultures. While Islam is not a homophobic religion, in the presence of these values it's unfortunately quite easy to read it that way. The same is true of Christianity, and this we have Uganda.

    That's going off topic. But its a point worth taking up. It a frequently made argument, but its ridiculous. All post colonial societies change their laws to suit their new situation. Look at how General Zia in Pakistan overhauled their legal system. If they wanted, they could have changed the laws on homosexuality too.
    The UK decriminalized homosexuality in 1967. Similarly, it took Ireland a few decades more to do this because we were basically, in the main, a more conservative society who weren't ready to support a legal change like that.
    Saudi Arabia was never colonised by Europeans, how do they treat homosexuals?




  • You're not asking questions in an attempt to be educated. They are loaded questions. You're basically saying "You're misogynistic, prove me wrong."

    Also, shouldn't an Islam forum be a safe space for muslims given there are so few? Ireland is a particularly difficult country to be muslim in. Nobody should be taking an accusatory tone in here.

    Loaded in what way? In my case, I made a very simple request. YOU claim Islam is not misogynistic. I cited verses from Islam scripture which state otherwise. YOU claim they don't mean what they appear to mean, but refuse to explain how.

    You want a forum in a country with free speech to not allow people to come here and question certain aspects of your religion?

    You're not doing Islam any great favours here, Molly, to be honest. You are evading answering simple questions, and suggesting your religion should not be questioned...




  • I would like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that mollymosfet has been sitebanned by an Admin.






  • Tom Dunne wrote: »
    I would like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that mollymosfet has been sitebanned by an Admin.



    Do you know was that on the basis of her contributions on this thread?




  • Palmach wrote: »
    Do you know was that on the basis of her contributions on this thread?

    No, nothing to do with this thread.




  • There was a very interesting and RELEVANT discussion going on in this thread a few weeks ago regarding the Islamic attitude to marrying girls who are not even teenagers. I see that ALL of that discussion has been deleted..it was bad enough that the thread was closed in the first place but to delete that discussion and re-open the thread, talk about a whitewash. What's the point of even posting in this forum when the moderator will just delete stuff he doesn't like the look of?! Delete this too if you want, because then I will be bringing this up with the administrators regarding biased censorship on this forum.




  • I see that ALL of that discussion has been deleted..it was bad enough that the thread was closed in the first place but to delete that discussion and re-open the thread, talk about a whitewash.

    Care to back up your statements with facts? Unlike you, I can actually see all the deleted posts on this thread and aside from one three posts back, I have not deleted any posts in this thread.

    So please get your facts right before making sweeping statements.
    What's the point of even posting in this forum when the moderator will just delete stuff he doesn't like the look of?! Delete this too if you want, because then I will be bringing this up with the administrators regarding biased censorship on this forum.

    If you have an issue with moderation, you are most welcome to bring it up in the Help Desk.




  • There was a very interesting and RELEVANT discussion going on in this thread a few weeks ago regarding the Islamic attitude to marrying girls who are not even teenagers. I see that ALL of that discussion has been deleted..it was bad enough that the thread was closed in the first place but to delete that discussion and re-open the thread, talk about a whitewash. What's the point of even posting in this forum when the moderator will just delete stuff he doesn't like the look of?! Delete this too if you want, because then I will be bringing this up with the administrators regarding biased censorship on this forum.
    Agreed. Pointless forum if it is not open to debate.


  • Advertisement


  • galljga1 wrote: »
    Agreed. Pointless forum if it is not open to debate.

    Debate is welcome.

    Unfounded hysteria about pedophiles marrying six year olds is not.




  • Do people who say female modesty and segregation of the sexes stops sexual harassment actually believe that? Here's a blog by a woman living in Saudi:

    http://saudiwoman.me/2010/07/14/the-french-burqa-ban/
    It’s much more dangerous to walk the streets of Riyadh as a woman than it is in New York. Hence what the face cover is protecting us from has proven to be the complete opposite upon implementation.

    In Riyadh, single men are only allowed to enter shopping centers at different times to families, to stop the single men from harassing women, despite all the women wearing burqas. If you read this blog written by a Saudi woman, you'll quickly realize that sexual harassment is worse in segregated societies because the men have an unhealthy view of women.




  • Do people who say female modesty and segregation of the sexes stops sexual harassment actually believe that? Here's a blog by a woman living in Saudi:

    http://saudiwoman.me/2010/07/14/the-french-burqa-ban/



    In Riyadh, single men are only allowed to enter shopping centers at different times to families, to stop the single men from harassing women, despite all the women wearing burqas. If you read this blog written by a Saudi woman, you'll quickly realize that sexual harassment is worse in segregated societies because the men have an unhealthy view of women.
    It sounds like a horrific way of life. The more you hide women away, the more you make them interesting. Imagine men and women just interacting together as human beings...




  • Very depressing thread:
    Genuinely interested non-muslims (including myself) trying to understand Islam more.
    Met with unhelpful opacity and what seems to be prickliness.




  • Tom Dunne wrote: »
    Debate is welcome.

    Unfounded hysteria about pedophiles marrying six year olds is not.

    Unfounded hysteria?

    There's been some very bad news for the women of Pakistan recently. This is directly due to the belief that if its ok for Mohammed it is ok for every follower of Islam.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/15/bill-banning-child-marriage-fails-in-pakistan-after-its-deemed-un-islamic/
    Pakistani lawmakers had to withdraw a bill aimed at curbing the practice of child marriage after a prominent religious body declared the legislation un-Islamic.

    The bill, which proposed raising the marriage age for females from 16 to 18, also called for harsher penalties for those who would arrange marriages involving children. Despite the laws in place, child marriages, particularly involving young female brides, are common in parts of the country. It's estimated that some 20 percent of girls in the country are married before they turn 18.

    Clerics on the council object to minimum age requirements, arguing instead that an individual can marry once reaching puberty, which can be as early as the age of 9.




  • katydid wrote: »
    It sounds like a horrific way of life. The more you hide women away, the more you make them interesting. Imagine men and women just interacting together as human beings...

    Hiding and separating women from men makes them mysterious, its pretty logical really.

    The more interactions men have with women the less mysterious they are to men and visa versa.

    But for some reason religious organizations just love to separate them, ala single sex catholic schools in Ireland and other country's. This creates situations where a boy/man can go through their whole life without having a friend thats a girl/women.

    I suppose for many its hard to respect women when you don't see them as equal to you,




  • I'm pretty upset as I've just been told on another forum that, as a woman who converted to Islam, I am automatically oppressed. I have tried to explain how it was my choice (obviously, I converted by choice!) I guess it's been a while since I encountered such naked contempt for how I live my life, can you tell I stay away from the internet! Must be because I'm so oppressed ;)




  • Ruad wrote: »
    I'm pretty upset as I've just been told on another forum that, as a woman who converted to Islam, I am automatically oppressed. I have tried to explain how it was my choice (obviously, I converted by choice!) I guess it's been a while since I encountered such naked contempt for how I live my life, can you tell I stay away from the internet! Must be because I'm so oppressed ;)

    Why did you convert? For marriage?




  • Salaam sister, don't listen to those people. Of course if you were to subscribe to Salafi or Wahhabist ideals, that may well be the case. But there is room enough within Islam to support strong feminist ideals and I believe that the Prophet(PBUH) was a feminist.

    Also, Aisha's age been given as 6 comes from a particular Hadith that contradicts the timeline of events in other Hadith, the Quran and otherwise known history. The most likely historically accurate age would be around 19 I believe. It's important to remember that despite how seriously most clerics take them, the Hadith are not preserved near as well as the Quran itself and should not be taken as historically accurate documents - but can help understand the context of early Islam if used correctly.

    It's also important to remember that the Prophet married women for protection within the highly misogynistic society that was there at the time. A modern understanding out of context and with limited knowledge of the society at the time(not that many Muslims aren't also guilty of this) is what results this.

    In my view, it is pure concern trolling and people are just looking for reasons to reaffirm what they already believe about Islam and Muslims. I won't deny that modern, mainstream Islam is sexist but historically that was not always the case compared to the Christian world and there's no reason to believe it will be that way forever. The Muslim world has been largely subjugated/colonised by the west, if you look at India and other such ex-colonies they have similarly regressive attitudes.

    Ireland, too, an ex-colony, still doesn't allow women to have abortions - there is no Muslim majority country with a total ban on abortions. It is somewhat ironic, along with the fact that people claim to be concerned for how women are treated within Islam but also speak over Muslim women, uninterested in what they have to say.

    People who take Saudi Arabia or Iran to represent all Muslims though are doubly dishonest. The truth is that some Muslim majority countries have had more female heads of state than, for example, the US. While Muslim majority countries have a pretty horrible track record on for example LGBT rights(again, this is largely a post-colonial thing) there are often other areas where they might surprise you.


  • Advertisement


  • Salaam sister, don't listen to those people. Of course if you were to subscribe to Salafi or Wahhabist ideals, that may well be the case. But there is room enough within Islam to support strong feminist ideals and I believe that the Prophet(PBUH) was a feminist.

    Also, Aisha's age been given as 6 comes from a particular Hadith that contradicts the timeline of events in other Hadith, the Quran and otherwise known history. The most likely historically accurate age would be around 19 I believe. It's important to remember that despite how seriously most clerics take them, the Hadith are not preserved near as well as the Quran itself and should not be taken as historically accurate documents - but can help understand the context of early Islam if used correctly.

    It's also important to remember that the Prophet married women for protection within the highly misogynistic society that was there at the time. A modern understanding out of context and with limited knowledge of the society at the time(not that many Muslims aren't also guilty of this) is what results this.

    In my view, it is pure concern trolling and people are just looking for reasons to reaffirm what they already believe about Islam and Muslims. I won't deny that modern, mainstream Islam is sexist but historically that was not always the case compared to the Christian world and there's no reason to believe it will be that way forever. The Muslim world has been largely subjugated/colonised by the west, if you look at India and other such ex-colonies they have similarly regressive attitudes.

    Ireland, too, an ex-colony, still doesn't allow women to have abortions - there is no Muslim majority country with a total ban on abortions. It is somewhat ironic, along with the fact that people claim to be concerned for how women are treated within Islam but also speak over Muslim women, uninterested in what they have to say.

    People who take Saudi Arabia or Iran to represent all Muslims though are doubly dishonest. The truth is that some Muslim majority countries have had more female heads of state than, for example, the US. While Muslim majority countries have a pretty horrible track record on for example LGBT rights(again, this is largely a post-colonial thing) there are often other areas where they might surprise you.

    gj5f4.jpg


Advertisement