Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

Defender OF Faith · 09-01-2015 7:06pm

I notice that this is your first contribution to the thread so before I respond I welcome you and I invite myself first before inviting you to be open minded and willing to explore and interact with what is being said and written in an intelligent and intellectual manner so that we may both benefit ~

Palmach wrote: »

Not true.........http://islamqa.info/en/178318

Remember the quote from the Ayatollah Khomeini: "Fathers do not let your daughters see their first blood under your roof"

If you have taken the time to read and reflect upon the link you provided you would realise that it does not contradict what the poster have said with regard to the women being forced into marriage, nowhere is the word "forced" mentioned or an equivalent such as "against her will".

The issue in question regards the permissibility of arranging a marriage for the girl if the purpose serves a very real interest for her, and as you read it's an issue of dispute among the scholars and even those who agree upon it state that arranging a marriage is only permissible if a real interest is served for the women however, what the scholar Ibn Uthaymeen have said to me at least appears to be the most correct interpretation as it comply with the verse:

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

And the numerous Hadith related to the matter.

QUOTE wrote: »

"Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him) was of the view that in the case of a girl who has reached the age of nine years it is stipulated that she give consent and he said: This is the view favoured by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, and this is the correct view.

With regard to the girl who is younger than the age of nine years, he favoured the view that the father does not have the right to arrange a marriage. He narrated from Ibn Shubrumah (may Allah have mercy on him) that he said: It is not permissible to arrange a marriage for a young girl who has not reached the age of puberty, because if we say that that is subject to her consent, her consent does not count (because she is too young to make such decisions), and when she does reach the age of puberty we believe that she should not be forced into a marriage. The Shaykh said: This view is the correct one, that the father should not arrange a marriage for his daughter until she reaches the age of puberty, and when she reaches the age of puberty he should not arrange a marriage unless she gives her consent.

End Quote..

Palmach wrote: »

Again wrong. A man utters the words "I divorce you" three times to gain divorce. A woman goes through a much longer more tortuous rout. Also the Koran gives the man the right to beat his wife as has been agreed on and another thread here. Islam is deeply misogynistic there is little doubt.

The poster have said:
" A woman is perfectly within her rights in Islam to file for divorce is she is being mistreated"

You disagreed and claimed it's wrong but have supported this by merely saying " A woman goes through a much longer more tortuous rout", I cannot see how this statement proves that a women cannot file for a divorce in Islam.

I dont think you are aware of the divorce and marriage law in Islam as the women does certainly not go through a "tortuous route" in order to claim a divorce. Islam gives paramount importance to marriage as it's the only lawful means through which a man and a women can form a bond with each other and according to the Hadith “The most hated of permissible things to Allah is divorce.” as it leads crumbles the household and affect children and family members very negatively.

"Allah encourages the husband and wife to appoint arbitrators as the first step to aid in reconciliation in the process of divorce. If the reconciliation step fails, both the man and woman are guaranteed the right to divorce as established in the Quran, but the difference lies in the procedure for each one."

To understand more about divorce rules & law in Islam and how Islam did not put any difficulty through which the women just like the man can obtain her divorce:
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/92752/divorce-in-islam

In short there are two ways through which a women can file a divorce, the first is for the wife return her dowry to end the marriage or she can petition a judge for divorce, with cause and if approved she keeps the dowry.
This is hardly tedious or long.

Palmach wrote: »

Also the Koran gives the man the right to beat his wife as has been agreed on and another thread here. Islam is deeply misogynistic there is little doubt.

This issue is usually taken out of context as shown by you, but when you take this verse into context and exploring the wisdom of the ruling behind it, it actually provide a solution for you when dealing with domestic violence.

confusedquark wrote: »

- Domestic violence. Full article covering the topic here

But taking a look at the empty context you gave with giving any qualification by saying "Islam premit you to beat your wife" we can see a contradiction when compared to the actual teachings of Islam and that of the prophet.

He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, “How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?”, In another narration: ‘Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not harm his neighbors. And I command you to take good care of the women.’

On the light of the above an alternative more valid interpretation to the word "idriboo" due to the complexity of the Arabic language and taking the context of the verse into account is "to separate, to part" rather then "Hit them lightly"*

*http://www.islamawareness.net/Wife/beating1.html

Tom Dunne · 09-01-2015 8:03pm

Palmach wrote: »

Not true.........http://islamqa.info/en/178318

Remember the quote from the Ayatollah Khomeini: "Fathers do not let your daughters see their first blood under your roof"

Palmach wrote: »

Again wrong. A man utters the words "I divorce you" three times to gain divorce. A woman goes through a much longer more tortuous rout. Also the Koran gives the man the right to beat his wife as has been agreed on and another thread here. Islam is deeply misogynistic there is little doubt.

Just curious as to whether you have actually spoken to a Muslim woman about these issues?

Don't believe what you read in The Sun or see on Sky News.

irishdude11 · 10-01-2015 12:44am

The 'reward' of dozens of virgins in heaven for Muslim men is a good indication of how women are seen in Islamic society...objects.

All this sugar-coating I've read over the last few pages can't hide the fact that heaven in terms of Muslim males involves 'riding all around them'...i.e. having sex with loads of women they don't know.

Defender OF Faith · 10-01-2015 5:45am

irishdude11 wrote: »

The 'reward' of dozens of virgins in heaven for Muslim men is a good indication of how women are seen in Islamic society...objects.

All this sugar-coating I've read over the last few pages can't hide the fact that heaven in terms of Muslim males involves 'riding all around them'...i.e. having sex with loads of women they don't know.

There's much more to paradise to the Muslim then "sex" but I guess in this highly sexualised society "sex" is the only thing you would care about.
We are not ashamed to say that there will be sex in paradise. What do you think people will do in paradise? play the harp and sing hymns?
It's one of the many pleasures God has prepared in heaven, there are greater things then this for a Muslim such as seeing the face of our lord,the prophets and the companions. The prophet told about how the person in the lowest rank in heaven will have 10 times the kingdom of a king amongst the kings of the world, so we can only imagine what those in higher positions will obtain, and certainly it's not only sex.

Also this thread deals with women rights in Islam and we have been establishing so far that women our sisters and are equal to us, we are ordered as Men to lower our gaze in instances were we might think about them in such a way, A Muslim will kneel down to his mother feet in humility because his prophet have told him paradise is under her feet & her rights are 3x that of the father, how can we be objectifying women while holding them in such high esteem?. We were not "sugar coating" coating anything here my friend.

looksee · 10-01-2015 11:28am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

There's much more to paradise to the Muslim then "sex" but I guess in this highly sexualised society "sex" is the only thing you would care about.
We are not ashamed to say that there will be sex in paradise. What do you think people will do in paradise? play the harp and sing hymns?
It's one of the many pleasures God has prepared in heaven, there are greater things then this for a Muslim such as seeing the face of our lord,the prophets and the companions. The prophet told about how the person in the lowest rank in heaven will have 10 times the kingdom of a king amongst the kings of the world, so we can only imagine what those in higher positions will obtain, and certainly it's not only sex.

Its interesting that you have not disputed this argument about heaven. So on the basis that it will happen, how does it actually work? Having a crowd of virgins for each man that goes to heaven is going to be a bit difficult logistically. You can't recycle them for different men as a woman can only be a virgin once. Is being one of the virgins the woman's reward in heaven? Or does she get a crowd of virgin men?

I find it totally amazing that you cannot see the total lack of equality for women in your arguments, yet you still argue that because you honour and care for women (the same ones that are going to be your sex-slaves in heaven?) its all ok?

Defender OF Faith · 10-01-2015 3:25pm

looksee wrote: »

Its interesting that you have not disputed this argument about heaven. So on the basis that it will happen, how does it actually work? Having a crowd of virgins for each man that goes to heaven is going to be a bit difficult logistically. You can't recycle them for different men as a woman can only be a virgin once. Is being one of the virgins the woman's reward in heaven? Or does she get a crowd of virgin men?

I find it totally amazing that you cannot see the total lack of equality for women in your arguments, yet you still argue that because you honour and care for women (the same ones that are going to be your sex-slaves in heaven?) its all ok?

Arguing about something that will happen in paradise a place which is an unseen world that we know little about is pointless. There's no duty or obligation for their to be "rights".
We Muslim believe that every one in heaven will be pleased,every one will feel content with their position.God talk about paradise by saying “Therein you shall have (all) that your inner selves desire, and therein you shall have (all) for which you ask for.”[31:31-32] Therefore in Paradise its inhabitants, whether male or female, will have every thing that they wish for and they will abide therein forever.
No one will be single, a man will be reunited with his wife in this world & everyone will be married and there's no slavery, " therein shall they have pure spouses, and We shall admit them to a place of plenteous shade. (4:157)".

looksee · 10-01-2015 4:35pm

I was, admittedly, being frivolous in my suggestions about the 72 virgins. I have no idea where this specific number came from, or even the suggestion of multiple virgins, I accept that there is no mention in any easily accessible English translation of the Quran. In that case you could clearly and unambiguously state 'that is not in the Quran' instead of arguing in circles round it.

I would not think that lying on couches eating all manner of exotic fruit would be any more entertaining in the long run than playing harps and singing hymns. The difference is that since you say the Quran is absolutely the word of God and not to be disbelieved in any way, whereas Christians are quite willing to accept the difference between teaching and poetic flights of fancy. And as I have already said, I do not accept either belief system personally.

Defender OF Faith · 10-01-2015 4:51pm

looksee wrote: »

I would not think that lying on couches eating all manner of exotic fruit would be any more entertaining in the long run than playing harps and singing hymns.

Again I myself sometimes wonder "will you ever get bored from living an eternal life?" It's a perfectly valid question to ask, but it's really not a concern to me right now, as am comparing something I understand little about, described as having the width of the heavens and earth, with this worldly life and its pleasures.

looksee wrote: »

The difference is that since you say the Quran is absolutely the word of God and not to be disbelieved in any way, whereas Christians are quite willing to accept the difference between teaching and poetic flights of fancy. And as I have already said, I do not accept either belief system personally.

I wrote somewhere in this thread about how the Qur'an while being absolutely the word of God, it contain two main broad categories of verses, What's known as the Muhkamat/clear verses and the Mutashabehat/Unclear verses.

It's the unclear verses that are open to interpretations and this gives fluidity to the Qur'an and a degree of openness to accept different interpretations in accordance with the needs and wants of society over time; however it's important to note that such interpretation are done in accordance with the rules of Usl-Al fiqh which is a science that deals with the methods acceptable in interpreting verses of the Qur'an, it's scholars & jurists who study this, coupled with their understanding of the state of society & people of the time that take upon this task. A Muslim cannot take a verse and interpret it according to his whims and desires.

I didnt quite understand what you meant by Christians being quite willing to accept the difference between teaching and poetic flights of fancy. But there are verses and chapters in the Qur'an that talks about the unseen; such as life after death,heaven & hell, however these are obviously differentiated from verses the offer guidance, directions & laws.

mollymosfet · 14-03-2015 8:01pm

... do people here realise the first University was founded by a Muslim woman? When you talk about "the way you treat your women" it's offensive because it assumes that all Muslim cultures are the same first and foremost, and also assumes that misogyny is the default when some muslim cultures are less misogynistic than western ones, and have even had more female heads of state. Also, Islam ALWAYS puts the onus on men for their "animal urges" before it puts the onus on women to cover up. Something our western culture does not do as we still regularly blame victims of sexual assault for how they dress. Hijab is not mandatory, though it is sunnah. Women choose it to de-emphasise certain features to push people into seeing others(like their intelligence). Some women who are muslim prefer to be more sexual and "immodest", and that's fine too. Muslim sex workers and exotic dancers exist, and they are still Muslim. There are Muslim cultures such as the Tuareg where the man covers up more often than the woman. Aside from there being several different schools Every culture and every individual has their own interpretation and path. I am friends with both Muslims and sex workers, so both ends of the extreme. Sometimes it becomes difficult to resolve the concept of "modesty" but I think we have a habit of conflating it with our western values in a lazy way.

Also assuming nobody here has heard of Queen Khadijah of the Maldives. She didn't let any man tell her what to do. Some real Game of Thrones stuff here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_of_the_Maldives

Muslim women are not subservient and assuming they are persecuted and oppressed is insulting and strips them of their autonomy. Funnily enough, we do the same with sex workers, so I guess you can't win no matter what you do as a woman.

katydid · 14-03-2015 8:40pm

mollymosfet wrote: »

... do people here realise the first University was founded by a Muslim woman? When you talk about "the way you treat your women" it's offensive because it assumes that all Muslim cultures are the same first and foremost, and also assumes that misogyny is the default when some muslim cultures are less misogynistic than western ones, and have even had more female heads of state. Also, Islam ALWAYS puts the onus on men for their "animal urges" before it puts the onus on women to cover up. Something our western culture does not do as we still regularly blame victims of sexual assault for how they dress. Hijab is not mandatory, though it is sunnah. Women choose it to de-emphasise certain features to push people into seeing others(like their intelligence). Some women who are muslim prefer to be more sexual and "immodest", and that's fine too. Muslim sex workers and exotic dancers exist, and they are still Muslim. There are Muslim cultures such as the Tuareg where the man covers up more often than the woman. Aside from there being several different schools Every culture and every individual has their own interpretation and path. I am friends with both Muslims and sex workers, so both ends of the extreme. Sometimes it becomes difficult to resolve the concept of "modesty" but I think we have a habit of conflating it with our western values in a lazy way.

Also assuming nobody here has heard of Queen Khadijah of the Maldives. She didn't let any man tell her what to do. Some real Game of Thrones stuff here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_of_the_Maldives

Muslim women are not subservient and assuming they are persecuted and oppressed is insulting and strips them of their autonomy. Funnily enough, we do the same with sex workers, so I guess you can't win no matter what you do as a woman.

Please tell me a Muslim society where women are totally equal to men, and which is less misogynistic than Western societies. I'd be happy to move there.

Most Muslim women ARE subservient, as they accept membership of a religion that tells them that their value is less than that of men; their sworn testimony is only half the value of that of man, for instance.

mollymosfet · 14-03-2015 9:12pm

Please tell me a Muslim society where women are totally equal to men, and which is less misogynistic than Western societies. I'd be happy to move there.

Tell me of a western society were women are totally equal to men. No such society exists.

5 Muslim countries elected female presidents - something the US has yet to do.

Most Muslim women ARE subservient, as they accept membership of a religion that tells them that their value is less than that of men; their sworn testimony is only half the value of that of man, for instance.

A typical non-muslim understanding of the Qu'ran. If a woman's value was less than that of a man, why would there be so many female public officials in Muslim countries? Islam does not preach this.

The inequality in muslim countries is cultural - and more specifically in many cases - colonial. Almost all Muslim countries were affected by European colonialism and for example many of their anti-LGBT laws are colonial artefacts rather than that of Sharia.

mollymosfet · 14-03-2015 9:19pm

Just to point out that Turkey, a muslim country, decriminalised homosexuality under a Caliph 150 years before Ireland did.

Most of the anti-LGBTQ values present in the Muslim world actually come from western colonialist values that were absorbed into their cultures. While Islam is not a homophobic religion, in the presence of these values it's unfortunately quite easy to read it that way. The same is true of Christianity, and this we have Uganda.

There are Muslim LGBTQs, and some of them don't even make a distinction between the "act" and "person" as there are many different ways to interpret the Qu'ran. Please understand that there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and many Muslims in the west who's social values are in fact more progressive than the average white westerner since they understand oppression more deeply. There are potentially thousands or even millions or Muslims who will tell you homosexuality is perfectly fine.

I am against all forms of homophobia whether it be against the person or act, but we should not be quick to judge the Muslim world when it's largely the fault of European imperialists(or a reaction to what they perceive as modern western values) that those values exist. We need to get our collective boot of the Muslim world's throat before we demand they modernise to our standards.

katydid · 14-03-2015 9:22pm

mollymosfet wrote: »

Tell me of a western society were women are totally equal to men. No such society exists.

5 Muslim countries elected female presidents - something the US has yet to do.

A typical non-muslim understanding of the Qu'ran. If a woman's value was less than that of a man, why would there be so many female public officials in Muslim countries? Islam does not preach this.

The inequality in muslim countries is cultural - and more specifically in many cases - colonial. Almost all Muslim countries were affected by European colonialism and for example many of their anti-LGBT laws are colonial artefacts rather than that of Sharia.

I didn't ask about female presidents. Ireland has elected a female president. I asked you to tell me a Muslim society where men and women are perfectly equal...

The Qur'an says that the testimony of a woman is worth half that of a man. And that women should inherit half of what a man inherits.

Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.

Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."

What's to misunderstand?

phater phagan · 14-03-2015 9:28pm

So much language - so little thought . So much doctrine - so little reasoning.

mollymosfet · 14-03-2015 9:29pm

You can't pull random passages out of the Qu'ran without looking at them in context. People always get this wrong. I am absolutely certain that if you actually googled those and read up you would get your answer, yet you demand answers of muslims and muslim allies or else you paint the whole religion as misogynist.

Show me a Christian/Secular society where men and women are perfectly equal.

phater phagan · 14-03-2015 9:52pm

Islam is not a "bad" religion. No more than Christianity, Judaism, and any other religion that people truly believe in. If those within those faiths choose to contravene the tenets of their religion for personal enhancement, and if their actions are of hatred and despair then they must be the enemies that Islam and the Prophet warned about.

katydid · 14-03-2015 10:09pm

mollymosfet wrote: »

You can't pull random passages out of the Qu'ran without looking at them in context. People always get this wrong. I am absolutely certain that if you actually googled those and read up you would get your answer, yet you demand answers of muslims and muslim allies or else you paint the whole religion as misogynist.

Show me a Christian/Secular society where men and women are perfectly equal.

So tell me the context that changes the fact that the Qur'an says that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man, or that a woman should inherit half what a man inherits?

YOU are claiming they mean something else other than the meaning that is there in black and white. So it's up to you to explain.

I never claimed that in any Christian or secular society men and women are perfectly equal. There is a long way to go. But they are not contenting with people who believe the above.

katydid · 14-03-2015 10:18pm

phater phagan wrote: »

Islam is not a "bad" religion. No more than Christianity, Judaism, and any other religion that people truly believe in. If those within those faiths choose to contravene the tenets of their religion for personal enhancement, and if their actions are of hatred and despair then they must be the enemies that Islam and the Prophet warned about.

No, it's not a bad religion. But it certainly has elements that are discriminatory and promote inequality. And because of the nature of the religion - the claim and demand that everything what is written in the Qur'an is the direct and inerrant word of God, and the acceptance of this by most believers, those elements have a larger influence on them than in other religions.

phater phagan · 14-03-2015 10:23pm

Sorry- i didn't realise the substance of the argument at the time I entered this forum. I agree with you Mollymosfet. No harm to you Katydid

mollymosfet · 14-03-2015 10:24pm

katydid wrote: »

So tell me the context that changes the fact that the Qur'an says that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man, or that a woman should inherit half what a man inherits?

You pulled these up - if you researched this properly, why not expalin the context?

katydid · 14-03-2015 10:25pm

mollymosfet wrote: »

You pulled these up - if you researched this properly, why not expalin the context?

I pulled them up to prove that Islam sees women as less than equal to men. It did. It's there in black and white.

If you claim it can be explained other than the way it's written, feel free. Clearly you can't.

phater phagan · 14-03-2015 10:30pm

I was just about to exit the forum when I saw your response. Does the bible not also promulgate the same things that you mention about in the Quran?

looksee · 14-03-2015 10:31pm

mollymosfet wrote: »

You can't pull random passages out of the Qu'ran without looking at them in context. People always get this wrong. I am absolutely certain that if you actually googled those and read up you would get your answer, yet you demand answers of muslims and muslim allies or else you paint the whole religion as misogynist.

Show me a Christian/Secular society where men and women are perfectly equal.

Earlier in this thread those points were discussed and put in context and argued about, and no convincing answer emerged. Why would non Muslims not ask Muslims for answers about their religion, who else is there to ask? We (non-Muslims) have been told numerous times that you have to be a Muslim scholar to understand the quotations, but sadly no Muslim scholar has been on to give us a definitive answer.

In the meantime where is the equality in punishing a victim of rape, apparently for merely existing and being available to be raped?

And this is a discussion about Islam, in the Islam forum, answering questions about Christian society would be pointless and off topic.

katydid · 14-03-2015 10:37pm

phater phagan wrote: »

I was just about to exit the forum when I saw your response. Does the bible not also promulgate the same things that you mention about in the Quran?

Some of the same things. Not to the same degree. And Christians contextualise, the vast majority don't believe - can't believe, since the Bible is full of undeniable contradictions - that is the inerrant and unchallengeable word of God, but rather that it is inspired by God.

phater phagan · 14-03-2015 11:00pm

katydid wrote: »

Some of the same things. Not to the same degree. And Christians contextualise, the vast majority don't believe - can't believe, since the Bible is full of undeniable contradictions - that is the inerrant and unchallengeable word of God, but rather that it is inspired by God.

There are many Christians in the US whom I've met and all over the world who would disagree with your premise - they who believe that the Bible is the wholly truthful written word of God and do not believe anything other than that. The word inerrant does not come into their domain.Are there not Muslims whom contextualization of the Qu'ran applies to?

katydid · 14-03-2015 11:11pm

phater phagan wrote: »

There are many Christians in the US whom I've met and all over the world who would disagree with your premise - they who believe that the Bible is the wholly truthful written word of God and do not believe anything other than that. The word inerrant does not come into their domain.Are there not Muslims whom contextualization of the Qu'ran applies to?

They can believe what they want. The contradictions and discrepancies in the Bible make it clear that it can't be taken literally.

Some Muslims do contextualise the Qur'an; I'd be delighted to hear the contextualisation for the inequality of women in the passages I quoted. The person I responded to, who was claiming it can be contextualised, has been twisting and turning and using every excuse in the book to avoid explaining what she means. Because, I suspect, she has no idea.

phater phagan · 14-03-2015 11:26pm

And so to bed now. Best wishes Katydid. May the force be with you.Bless all good people wherever they are.

katydid · 14-03-2015 11:27pm

phater phagan wrote: »

And so to bed now. Best wishes Katydid. May the force be with you.Bless all good people wherever they are.

Night!

mollymosfet · 15-03-2015 1:28am

looksee wrote: »

Earlier in this thread those points were discussed and put in context and argued about, and no convincing answer emerged. Why would non Muslims not ask Muslims for answers about their religion, who else is there to ask? We (non-Muslims) have been told numerous times that you have to be a Muslim scholar to understand the quotations, but sadly no Muslim scholar has been on to give us a definitive answer.

In the meantime where is the equality in punishing a victim of rape, apparently for merely existing and being available to be raped?

And this is a discussion about Islam, in the Islam forum, answering questions about Christian society would be pointless and off topic.

You're not asking questions in an attempt to be educated. They are loaded questions. You're basically saying "You're misogynistic, prove me wrong."

Also, shouldn't an Islam forum be a safe space for muslims given there are so few? Ireland is a particularly difficult country to be muslim in. Nobody should be taking an accusatory tone in here.

Tom Dunne · 15-03-2015 7:29am

mollymosfet wrote: »

Also assuming nobody here has heard of Queen Khadijah of the Maldives. She didn't let any man tell her what to do. Some real Game of Thrones stuff here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_of_the_Maldives

Please familiarise yourself with the etiquette of the forum. Quoting Wikipedia articles is not the done thing on this forum as it is too unreliable. So please find a reputable source to back up your claim.

looksee · 15-03-2015 10:20am

mollymosfet wrote: »

You're not asking questions in an attempt to be educated. They are loaded questions. You're basically saying "You're misogynistic, prove me wrong."

Also, shouldn't an Islam forum be a safe space for muslims given there are so few? Ireland is a particularly difficult country to be muslim in. Nobody should be taking an accusatory tone in here.

I am sorry if you feel that the questions are loaded and accusatory. I was responding to your suggestion that we should do some research. If you read the thread you will see that all research offered is dismissed with 'only scholars can give information' type answers, which doesn't get us any further.And now you are saying that we can find answers by googling?

I agree that the Islam forum should be a safe place for Muslims to communicate in. However this thread about women in Islam has been running for a good while and is still open, so is apparently appropriate. If it were left just for Muslims to agree with each other that everything is fine in regard to women in Islam then it would be a short thread.

I for one would sincerely like to know about the topic, but there has not yet been a convincing reply. I am willing to accept that Muslim women are happy to be covered, and restricted from driving, going about unaccompanied, etc, but no Muslim woman has come on yet and explained how being fully veiled in a non-Muslim society helps them integrate and become part of the community they have chosen to join. Or any of the other issues we raise.

If the Muslims who post on here said, yes, the Quran says we should do these things, but we understand that it is a book of guidelines that are inevitably outdated in many respects, so we abide by the spirit of Islam rather than trying to live in a way more appropriate to the time it was written, I would find it easier to understand. Instead though there is an insistence that every word be unarguable, which leads to situations that are by modern standards patently unjust. I for one would just like to understand how individual Muslims can live with this.

The Christian bible can be said to be the same, and I dispute that too. But there really are not too many Christians insisting on abiding by centuries old rulings about 'an eye for an eye' and even where they are, civil law makes sure those people do not apply these rulings. Agreed there are factions in the US who want to teach creationism, and have some state backing, this is wrong but does not begin to compare with the violence and injustice we are seeing that is done in the name of Islam.

When The Troubles in Ireland were at their height some horrible things were done in the name of one faction or the other, and a frequent phrase was 'ah well you have to understand the background' as if this made it ok to kill and maim people. The same argument seems to be being used in Islam - this is all ok if you understand the context.

We can argue the Christian aspects in another thread though, this one is about Islam and saying 'what about' is just an attempt to deflect the argument.

Please, don't send us off to do our own research, we have been told this is not sufficient. Explain to us, even if it is just your own view, how Islam gives equality to women, especially in reference to the points that have been raised (inheritance, women's legal evidence, etc)

galljga1 · 15-03-2015 10:35am

mollymosfet wrote: »

You're not asking questions in an attempt to be educated. They are loaded questions. You're basically saying "You're misogynistic, prove me wrong."

Also, shouldn't an Islam forum be a safe space for muslims given there are so few? Ireland is a particularly difficult country to be muslim in. Nobody should be taking an accusatory tone in here.

Hi Molly, Is Ireland a difficult country for muslims compared to other predominantly christian countries? I would have thought otherwise but then I do not walk in your shoes.

donaghs · 15-03-2015 11:51am

mollymosfet wrote: »

Most of the anti-LGBTQ values present in the Muslim world actually come from western colonialist values that were absorbed into their cultures. While Islam is not a homophobic religion, in the presence of these values it's unfortunately quite easy to read it that way. The same is true of Christianity, and this we have Uganda.

That's going off topic. But its a point worth taking up. It a frequently made argument, but its ridiculous. All post colonial societies change their laws to suit their new situation. Look at how General Zia in Pakistan overhauled their legal system. If they wanted, they could have changed the laws on homosexuality too.
The UK decriminalized homosexuality in 1967. Similarly, it took Ireland a few decades more to do this because we were basically, in the main, a more conservative society who weren't ready to support a legal change like that.
Saudi Arabia was never colonised by Europeans, how do they treat homosexuals?

katydid · 15-03-2015 12:52pm

mollymosfet wrote: »

You're not asking questions in an attempt to be educated. They are loaded questions. You're basically saying "You're misogynistic, prove me wrong."

Also, shouldn't an Islam forum be a safe space for muslims given there are so few? Ireland is a particularly difficult country to be muslim in. Nobody should be taking an accusatory tone in here.

Loaded in what way? In my case, I made a very simple request. YOU claim Islam is not misogynistic. I cited verses from Islam scripture which state otherwise. YOU claim they don't mean what they appear to mean, but refuse to explain how.

You want a forum in a country with free speech to not allow people to come here and question certain aspects of your religion?

You're not doing Islam any great favours here, Molly, to be honest. You are evading answering simple questions, and suggesting your religion should not be questioned...

Tom Dunne · 15-03-2015 1:11pm

I would like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that mollymosfet has been sitebanned by an Admin.

Palmach · 19-03-2015 10:40am

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I would like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that mollymosfet has been sitebanned by an Admin.

Do you know was that on the basis of her contributions on this thread?

Tom Dunne · 19-03-2015 3:10pm

Palmach wrote: »

Do you know was that on the basis of her contributions on this thread?

No, nothing to do with this thread.

irishdude11 · 22-03-2015 11:03am

There was a very interesting and RELEVANT discussion going on in this thread a few weeks ago regarding the Islamic attitude to marrying girls who are not even teenagers. I see that ALL of that discussion has been deleted..it was bad enough that the thread was closed in the first place but to delete that discussion and re-open the thread, talk about a whitewash. What's the point of even posting in this forum when the moderator will just delete stuff he doesn't like the look of?! Delete this too if you want, because then I will be bringing this up with the administrators regarding biased censorship on this forum.

Tom Dunne · 22-03-2015 12:39pm

irishdude11 wrote: »

I see that ALL of that discussion has been deleted..it was bad enough that the thread was closed in the first place but to delete that discussion and re-open the thread, talk about a whitewash.

Care to back up your statements with facts? Unlike you, I can actually see all the deleted posts on this thread and aside from one three posts back, I have not deleted any posts in this thread.

So please get your facts right before making sweeping statements.

irishdude11 wrote: »

What's the point of even posting in this forum when the moderator will just delete stuff he doesn't like the look of?! Delete this too if you want, because then I will be bringing this up with the administrators regarding biased censorship on this forum.

If you have an issue with moderation, you are most welcome to bring it up in the Help Desk.

galljga1 · 22-03-2015 12:40pm

irishdude11 wrote: »

There was a very interesting and RELEVANT discussion going on in this thread a few weeks ago regarding the Islamic attitude to marrying girls who are not even teenagers. I see that ALL of that discussion has been deleted..it was bad enough that the thread was closed in the first place but to delete that discussion and re-open the thread, talk about a whitewash. What's the point of even posting in this forum when the moderator will just delete stuff he doesn't like the look of?! Delete this too if you want, because then I will be bringing this up with the administrators regarding biased censorship on this forum.

Agreed. Pointless forum if it is not open to debate.

Tom Dunne · 22-03-2015 12:42pm

galljga1 wrote: »

Agreed. Pointless forum if it is not open to debate.

Debate is welcome.

Unfounded hysteria about pedophiles marrying six year olds is not.

A Primal Nut · 13-09-2015 11:39am

Do people who say female modesty and segregation of the sexes stops sexual harassment actually believe that? Here's a blog by a woman living in Saudi:

http://saudiwoman.me/2010/07/14/the-french-burqa-ban/

It’s much more dangerous to walk the streets of Riyadh as a woman than it is in New York. Hence what the face cover is protecting us from has proven to be the complete opposite upon implementation.

In Riyadh, single men are only allowed to enter shopping centers at different times to families, to stop the single men from harassing women, despite all the women wearing burqas. If you read this blog written by a Saudi woman, you'll quickly realize that sexual harassment is worse in segregated societies because the men have an unhealthy view of women.

katydid · 10-10-2015 12:11am

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Do people who say female modesty and segregation of the sexes stops sexual harassment actually believe that? Here's a blog by a woman living in Saudi:

http://saudiwoman.me/2010/07/14/the-french-burqa-ban/

In Riyadh, single men are only allowed to enter shopping centers at different times to families, to stop the single men from harassing women, despite all the women wearing burqas. If you read this blog written by a Saudi woman, you'll quickly realize that sexual harassment is worse in segregated societies because the men have an unhealthy view of women.

It sounds like a horrific way of life. The more you hide women away, the more you make them interesting. Imagine men and women just interacting together as human beings...

take everything · 12-01-2016 3:21am

Very depressing thread:
Genuinely interested non-muslims (including myself) trying to understand Islam more.
Met with unhelpful opacity and what seems to be prickliness.

irishdude11 · 17-01-2016 1:46pm

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Debate is welcome.

Unfounded hysteria about pedophiles marrying six year olds is not.

Unfounded hysteria?

There's been some very bad news for the women of Pakistan recently. This is directly due to the belief that if its ok for Mohammed it is ok for every follower of Islam.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/15/bill-banning-child-marriage-fails-in-pakistan-after-its-deemed-un-islamic/

Pakistani lawmakers had to withdraw a bill aimed at curbing the practice of child marriage after a prominent religious body declared the legislation un-Islamic.

The bill, which proposed raising the marriage age for females from 16 to 18, also called for harsher penalties for those who would arrange marriages involving children. Despite the laws in place, child marriages, particularly involving young female brides, are common in parts of the country. It's estimated that some 20 percent of girls in the country are married before they turn 18.

Clerics on the council object to minimum age requirements, arguing instead that an individual can marry once reaching puberty, which can be as early as the age of 9.

Cabaal · 24-01-2016 9:17am

katydid wrote: »

It sounds like a horrific way of life. The more you hide women away, the more you make them interesting. Imagine men and women just interacting together as human beings...

Hiding and separating women from men makes them mysterious, its pretty logical really.

The more interactions men have with women the less mysterious they are to men and visa versa.

But for some reason religious organizations just love to separate them, ala single sex catholic schools in Ireland and other country's. This creates situations where a boy/man can go through their whole life without having a friend thats a girl/women.

I suppose for many its hard to respect women when you don't see them as equal to you,

Ruad · 08-09-2016 12:58pm

I'm pretty upset as I've just been told on another forum that, as a woman who converted to Islam, I am automatically oppressed. I have tried to explain how it was my choice (obviously, I converted by choice!) I guess it's been a while since I encountered such naked contempt for how I live my life, can you tell I stay away from the internet! Must be because I'm so oppressed

JCX BXC · 12-09-2016 7:14pm

Ruad wrote: »

I'm pretty upset as I've just been told on another forum that, as a woman who converted to Islam, I am automatically oppressed. I have tried to explain how it was my choice (obviously, I converted by choice!) I guess it's been a while since I encountered such naked contempt for how I live my life, can you tell I stay away from the internet! Must be because I'm so oppressed

Why did you convert? For marriage?

sister_shama · 23-11-2016 5:30am

Salaam sister, don't listen to those people. Of course if you were to subscribe to Salafi or Wahhabist ideals, that may well be the case. But there is room enough within Islam to support strong feminist ideals and I believe that the Prophet(PBUH) was a feminist.

Also, Aisha's age been given as 6 comes from a particular Hadith that contradicts the timeline of events in other Hadith, the Quran and otherwise known history. The most likely historically accurate age would be around 19 I believe. It's important to remember that despite how seriously most clerics take them, the Hadith are not preserved near as well as the Quran itself and should not be taken as historically accurate documents - but can help understand the context of early Islam if used correctly.

It's also important to remember that the Prophet married women for protection within the highly misogynistic society that was there at the time. A modern understanding out of context and with limited knowledge of the society at the time(not that many Muslims aren't also guilty of this) is what results this.

In my view, it is pure concern trolling and people are just looking for reasons to reaffirm what they already believe about Islam and Muslims. I won't deny that modern, mainstream Islam is sexist but historically that was not always the case compared to the Christian world and there's no reason to believe it will be that way forever. The Muslim world has been largely subjugated/colonised by the west, if you look at India and other such ex-colonies they have similarly regressive attitudes.

Ireland, too, an ex-colony, still doesn't allow women to have abortions - there is no Muslim majority country with a total ban on abortions. It is somewhat ironic, along with the fact that people claim to be concerned for how women are treated within Islam but also speak over Muslim women, uninterested in what they have to say.

People who take Saudi Arabia or Iran to represent all Muslims though are doubly dishonest. The truth is that some Muslim majority countries have had more female heads of state than, for example, the US. While Muslim majority countries have a pretty horrible track record on for example LGBT rights(again, this is largely a post-colonial thing) there are often other areas where they might surprise you.

Ralf and Florian · 20-10-2017 6:10pm

sister_shama wrote: »

Salaam sister, don't listen to those people. Of course if you were to subscribe to Salafi or Wahhabist ideals, that may well be the case. But there is room enough within Islam to support strong feminist ideals and I believe that the Prophet(PBUH) was a feminist.

Also, Aisha's age been given as 6 comes from a particular Hadith that contradicts the timeline of events in other Hadith, the Quran and otherwise known history. The most likely historically accurate age would be around 19 I believe. It's important to remember that despite how seriously most clerics take them, the Hadith are not preserved near as well as the Quran itself and should not be taken as historically accurate documents - but can help understand the context of early Islam if used correctly.

It's also important to remember that the Prophet married women for protection within the highly misogynistic society that was there at the time. A modern understanding out of context and with limited knowledge of the society at the time(not that many Muslims aren't also guilty of this) is what results this.

In my view, it is pure concern trolling and people are just looking for reasons to reaffirm what they already believe about Islam and Muslims. I won't deny that modern, mainstream Islam is sexist but historically that was not always the case compared to the Christian world and there's no reason to believe it will be that way forever. The Muslim world has been largely subjugated/colonised by the west, if you look at India and other such ex-colonies they have similarly regressive attitudes.

Ireland, too, an ex-colony, still doesn't allow women to have abortions - there is no Muslim majority country with a total ban on abortions. It is somewhat ironic, along with the fact that people claim to be concerned for how women are treated within Islam but also speak over Muslim women, uninterested in what they have to say.

People who take Saudi Arabia or Iran to represent all Muslims though are doubly dishonest. The truth is that some Muslim majority countries have had more female heads of state than, for example, the US. While Muslim majority countries have a pretty horrible track record on for example LGBT rights(again, this is largely a post-colonial thing) there are often other areas where they might surprise you.

Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

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