Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

mollymosfet wrote: »

You can't pull random passages out of the Qu'ran without looking at them in context. People always get this wrong. I am absolutely certain that if you actually googled those and read up you would get your answer, yet you demand answers of muslims and muslim allies or else you paint the whole religion as misogynist.

Show me a Christian/Secular society where men and women are perfectly equal.

Earlier in this thread those points were discussed and put in context and argued about, and no convincing answer emerged. Why would non Muslims not ask Muslims for answers about their religion, who else is there to ask? We (non-Muslims) have been told numerous times that you have to be a Muslim scholar to understand the quotations, but sadly no Muslim scholar has been on to give us a definitive answer.

In the meantime where is the equality in punishing a victim of rape, apparently for merely existing and being available to be raped?

And this is a discussion about Islam, in the Islam forum, answering questions about Christian society would be pointless and off topic.

katydid wrote: »

Some of the same things. Not to the same degree. And Christians contextualise, the vast majority don't believe - can't believe, since the Bible is full of undeniable contradictions - that is the inerrant and unchallengeable word of God, but rather that it is inspired by God.

There are many Christians in the US whom I've met and all over the world who would disagree with your premise - they who believe that the Bible is the wholly truthful written word of God and do not believe anything other than that. The word inerrant does not come into their domain.Are there not Muslims whom contextualization of the Qu'ran applies to?

And so to bed now. Best wishes Katydid. May the force be with you.Bless all good people wherever they are.

mollymosfet wrote: »

You're not asking questions in an attempt to be educated. They are loaded questions. You're basically saying "You're misogynistic, prove me wrong."

Also, shouldn't an Islam forum be a safe space for muslims given there are so few? Ireland is a particularly difficult country to be muslim in. Nobody should be taking an accusatory tone in here.

I am sorry if you feel that the questions are loaded and accusatory. I was responding to your suggestion that we should do some research. If you read the thread you will see that all research offered is dismissed with 'only scholars can give information' type answers, which doesn't get us any further.And now you are saying that we can find answers by googling?

I agree that the Islam forum should be a safe place for Muslims to communicate in. However this thread about women in Islam has been running for a good while and is still open, so is apparently appropriate. If it were left just for Muslims to agree with each other that everything is fine in regard to women in Islam then it would be a short thread.

I for one would sincerely like to know about the topic, but there has not yet been a convincing reply. I am willing to accept that Muslim women are happy to be covered, and restricted from driving, going about unaccompanied, etc, but no Muslim woman has come on yet and explained how being fully veiled in a non-Muslim society helps them integrate and become part of the community they have chosen to join. Or any of the other issues we raise.

If the Muslims who post on here said, yes, the Quran says we should do these things, but we understand that it is a book of guidelines that are inevitably outdated in many respects, so we abide by the spirit of Islam rather than trying to live in a way more appropriate to the time it was written, I would find it easier to understand. Instead though there is an insistence that every word be unarguable, which leads to situations that are by modern standards patently unjust. I for one would just like to understand how individual Muslims can live with this.

The Christian bible can be said to be the same, and I dispute that too. But there really are not too many Christians insisting on abiding by centuries old rulings about 'an eye for an eye' and even where they are, civil law makes sure those people do not apply these rulings. Agreed there are factions in the US who want to teach creationism, and have some state backing, this is wrong but does not begin to compare with the violence and injustice we are seeing that is done in the name of Islam.

When The Troubles in Ireland were at their height some horrible things were done in the name of one faction or the other, and a frequent phrase was 'ah well you have to understand the background' as if this made it ok to kill and maim people. The same argument seems to be being used in Islam - this is all ok if you understand the context.

We can argue the Christian aspects in another thread though, this one is about Islam and saying 'what about' is just an attempt to deflect the argument.

Please, don't send us off to do our own research, we have been told this is not sufficient. Explain to us, even if it is just your own view, how Islam gives equality to women, especially in reference to the points that have been raised (inheritance, women's legal evidence, etc)

mollymosfet wrote: »

Most of the anti-LGBTQ values present in the Muslim world actually come from western colonialist values that were absorbed into their cultures. While Islam is not a homophobic religion, in the presence of these values it's unfortunately quite easy to read it that way. The same is true of Christianity, and this we have Uganda.

That's going off topic. But its a point worth taking up. It a frequently made argument, but its ridiculous. All post colonial societies change their laws to suit their new situation. Look at how General Zia in Pakistan overhauled their legal system. If they wanted, they could have changed the laws on homosexuality too.
The UK decriminalized homosexuality in 1967. Similarly, it took Ireland a few decades more to do this because we were basically, in the main, a more conservative society who weren't ready to support a legal change like that.
Saudi Arabia was never colonised by Europeans, how do they treat homosexuals?

I would like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that mollymosfet has been sitebanned by an Admin.

Palmach wrote: »

Do you know was that on the basis of her contributions on this thread?

No, nothing to do with this thread.

irishdude11 wrote: »

I see that ALL of that discussion has been deleted..it was bad enough that the thread was closed in the first place but to delete that discussion and re-open the thread, talk about a whitewash.

Care to back up your statements with facts? Unlike you, I can actually see all the deleted posts on this thread and aside from one three posts back, I have not deleted any posts in this thread.

So please get your facts right before making sweeping statements.

irishdude11 wrote: »

What's the point of even posting in this forum when the moderator will just delete stuff he doesn't like the look of?! Delete this too if you want, because then I will be bringing this up with the administrators regarding biased censorship on this forum.

If you have an issue with moderation, you are most welcome to bring it up in the Help Desk.

galljga1 wrote: »

Agreed. Pointless forum if it is not open to debate.

Debate is welcome.

Unfounded hysteria about pedophiles marrying six year olds is not.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Debate is welcome.

Unfounded hysteria about pedophiles marrying six year olds is not.

Unfounded hysteria?

There's been some very bad news for the women of Pakistan recently. This is directly due to the belief that if its ok for Mohammed it is ok for every follower of Islam.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/15/bill-banning-child-marriage-fails-in-pakistan-after-its-deemed-un-islamic/

Pakistani lawmakers had to withdraw a bill aimed at curbing the practice of child marriage after a prominent religious body declared the legislation un-Islamic.

The bill, which proposed raising the marriage age for females from 16 to 18, also called for harsher penalties for those who would arrange marriages involving children. Despite the laws in place, child marriages, particularly involving young female brides, are common in parts of the country. It's estimated that some 20 percent of girls in the country are married before they turn 18.

Clerics on the council object to minimum age requirements, arguing instead that an individual can marry once reaching puberty, which can be as early as the age of 9.

I'm pretty upset as I've just been told on another forum that, as a woman who converted to Islam, I am automatically oppressed. I have tried to explain how it was my choice (obviously, I converted by choice!) I guess it's been a while since I encountered such naked contempt for how I live my life, can you tell I stay away from the internet! Must be because I'm so oppressed