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Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST
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What does the age of marriage has to do with women rights in Islam?Would you mind discussing countries from this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age that follow the Sharia law and tell me why few of them accept the marriage of 9 years old girls/kids/children?
Show me where Sharia law (Qur'an & Hadith) states that the minimum age of marriage is 6,7 or 9?The answer is simple, its because of the Sharia law
You gave such details not me..It's unbelievable that you are focusing on detailsI am judging it morally, a 12 year old girl is still small, skinny, her body isn't completely formed, she is not suitable for marriage, there is also the psychological aspect.
You appear to be extremely ignorant of the life of Muhammed to claim that what I said is a myth without pointing out a single fact or how was it false.you avoid talking about that particular point by mentioning other things that he has done or that he was part of its all a myth
I suggest you read a Biography about the prophet(PBUH) read the one written by Lesley Hazleton an agnostic Jew who neither like or hate Islam and hence is very objective instead of directing you to one written by Islamic scholars for you to say its Biased. It's called "The First Muslim: The Story of Muhammad" read it to enlighten and educate yourself about this man before you criticize him.
Nope, what you presented is an extremely over simplified comment with regard to a serious issue, for a fuller article that discuss the comments you presented in further details>> http://islamqa.info/en/158282 & http://muslimgirl.net/6728/do-women-need-to-provide-four-witnesses-to-prove-rape/Is this the Sharia law when it comes to rape? the answer is yes? is it fair to women overall? the answer is no
What's interesting that you cited this source when taking about homosexuality yet refuse what's presented in it when it comes to Sharia law and rape, indicating to me that you are cherry picking sources that fits and agree with the version of Islam you painted in your head and any source which go against such version you will reject.
I have stated before:Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".
al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."
"The irony is that when discussing rape your argument is based on how Sharia makes it nearly impossible to prove the rape will let me tell you this again Sharia makes it similarly impossible to prove that a certain man or women had committed a homosexual act."
The prophet clearly states "whomever you find" this is subjected to the same rules involved in proving adultery or Zina. This will of course only be possible if the homosexual manifested his act on public if he manifest and this act in his private premise where no one can see him, nothing can be held against him & he's treated with respect,love and compassion.
Similar to the answer I gave above edited slightly:Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death."
"The irony is that when discussing rape your argument is based on how Sharia makes it nearly impossible to prove the rape will let me tell you this again Sharia makes it similarly impossible to prove that a certain man or women had committed a homosexual act."
The prophet clearly states if the man is "Seized" this is subjected to the same rules involved in proving adultery or Zina.
Further evidence that Islam differentiate between homosexuality as an act and homosexuality as a person. The homosexual with inclination toward homosexual acts however choose is not to manifest such act is not addressed in the hadith but rather those who manifest the act.Reliance of the Traveller, p17.2 - "May Allah curse him who does what Lot's people did." This is also repeated in three other places.
#1)This is false. Stop twisting my words, it's only once the homosexual act upon his inclination and in the process of doing so is caught using the procedures used for establishing adultery, which is nearly impossible unless he commits the act on public.Do you see what's wrong there, you say that homosexuals are treated equally but once we find out that they are homosexuals then we stone them to death, this is your definition of equality, love and compassion?
#2) No they are not stoned to death. Each school of Fiqh/Islamic law has its own decision with regard to punishing the homosexual interpreted from various Hadith related to the issue, in summary:
The Hanafite school (currently seen mainly in South and Eastern Asia) teaches that no physical punishment is warranted.
The Hanabalites, (widely followed in the Arab world) teach that severe punishment is warranted.
The Sha'fi school of thought (also seen in the Arab world) requires a minimum of 4 adult male witnesses before a person can be found guilty of a homosexual act.
Source: http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexuality.htm / Further sources can be provided regarding the sayings of the 4 different schools.
No am not, it simply has nothing to do with the topic of women rights in Islam. Open another thread if you want to discuss the age of marriage in Islam.Yes you are dodging my questions:
1 - You are yet to discuss the marriage of children below the age of 12 in countries where the Sharia is used and enforced and use common sense0 -
Just like looksee I will stop debating with you for different reasons:
1 - your inability to provide proof about what you wrote yourself - A homosexual acting as Imam - My Muslim friends laughed at me when they heard that.
2 - your inability to discuss issues that have to do with women in Islam (underage marriage)
3 - your inability to look at the main points of the Sharia that I mentioned when it comes to rape.
4- your inability to accept that Islam has its flaws just like any other religion and that Muhamed as a prophet failed in his role as a role model by committing some awful mistakes .
All in all I provided logic and common sense, on top of that I provided texts from hadith (look at my last post) and Sharia (look at my last post too), in the other hand you are doing all what you can in order to avoid answering basic questions.
In this debate the fact that you failed to talk clearly about the 3 main topics and that you avoided at all cost to enter into an honest and open debate means that you are short of arguments and as such I will not try harder, readers will be able to make their own mind anyway.0 -
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Here's a link that discusses the conditions necessary to be an Imam, if you have taken the attempt to read my previous post it's their.1 - your inability to provide proof about what you wrote yourself - A homosexual acting as Imam .
http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/WhoShouldBeImaam.htm
I draw your attention to the section titled:
WHO SHOULD NOT BE THE IMAM?
Taking into account that the action of Homosexuality and not he inclination is a sin notice how the conclusion states:
"BUT THE IMAMAT OF SUCH A PERSON[The sinner] IS MAKROOH (i.e DETESTABLE and UNLIKED), AND THERE IS NO DISAGREEMENT IN THIS MATTER." -Sorry for caps copy/pasted to lazy to re-write-
The person performing the acts of homosexuality is a sinner, a person who steal is a sinner a person who commits adultery is a sinner, a person who's disobedient to his parents is a sinner, a person who lies is a sinner.
It's detestable for Sinners in general to become an Imam in prayer and not just homosexuals who act upon their inclinations.
Your Muslim friends may have their own opinions which doesn't concerns me, am here presenting the Islamic ruling regarding the issue.
This thread deals with the rights of women in Islam if you wish to discuss marriage in Islam open a another thread which I have now told you 5-6 time.2 - your inability to discuss issues that have to do with women in Islam (underage marriage)
I have looked at them and answered you in my latest post, here's what I said:3 - your inability to look at the main points of the Sharia that I mentioned when it comes to rape.
[/B]Is this the Sharia law when it comes to rape? the answer is yes? is it fair to women overall? the answer is no
Also review ConfusedQuark (post number 397)regarding this article for more links and further explanation.Defender Of Faith wrote: »Nope, what you presented is an extremely over simplified comment with regard to a serious issue, for a fuller article that discuss the comments you presented in further details>> http://islamqa.info/en/158282 & http://muslimgirl.net/6728/do-women-need-to-provide-four-witnesses-to-prove-rape/
What's interesting that you cited this source when taking about homosexuality yet refuse what's presented in it when it comes to Sharia law and rape, indicating to me that you are cherry picking sources that fits and agree with the version of Islam you painted in your head and any source which go against such version you will reject.
End Quote..
All the flaws that were pointed by you which are 3 have been discussed and now your running away because you realised you can no longer prove that they are flaws.4- your inability to accept that Islam has its flaws just like any other religionand that Muhamed as a prophet failed in his role as a role model by committing some awful mistakes.
So far you pointed out 1 mistake which you consider awful and that's his marriage to Aisha. I don't consider it as such instead I think you are ignorant about the circumstances behind this marriage, the norms & customs at the time along with the rules regarding marriage in Islam, and you are clearly unwilling to allow me to prove otherwise as I have invited you to open a thread regarding the Issue or ask about it in the "Ask about Islam Thread" ~ feel free to do so
Before discussing the topic please review and take into consideration these points:1- If the marriage was so wrong, then why didn’t Aisha’s mother object to the marriage? Instead she happily gave Aisha for marriage, and prepared her for the marriage
2- Why didn’t Abu bakr the father of Aisha object to the marriage? If it was so wrong you would expect the father to have not allowed such a marriage to take place.
3- Why did the women who were present with Aisha when she was about to be given to the prophet for marriage wished her luck and were happy for her. If the marriage was wrong, the women present would have been sad, and they would not have been happy for Aisha, rather what we see is that they were happy for Aisha and had no problems with this marriage whatsoever.
4- Are we supposed to assume that Abu Bakr, and Aisha’s mother, and the women present with Aisha are all pedophiles and child molesters? Indeed such a conclusion with be very ignorant, and arrogant.
5- Why didn’t any of the prophet’s enemies use this against the prophet Muhammad? If the marriage was so wrong, then you would expect to find his enemies to be the first ones to start using this against him, instead what we find is that his enemies NEVER EVEN ONCE brought this marriage up in a negative way against him.
6- In fact why didn’t any of the Arabs around the Hijazi area object or talk against this marriage? It was not only the pagan Arabs in Hijaz who didn’t object to this marriage, but the surrounding Arabs didn’t object to it neither!
7- Are we to assume that ALL these Arabs were pedophiles and child molesters? Indeed such a conclusion would make the one making this conclusion a very stupid man, because only a very stupid arrogant man would accuse an entire race of being child molesters and pedophiles.
8- Why is there not a SINGLE hadith from Aisha showing her being displeased of the marriage? Why is there not one hadith from Aisha showing her to be like a victim, instead when you look at Aisha you find no symptoms of a victim. She became a great leader for Islam, a great scholar for Islam who would teach about Islam to many men. Does this seem to be the symptoms of someone who has been abused?
9-If Aisha was indeed a victim and so on, then why did she love the prophet Muhammad so much, and would sometimes get jealous around him because she loved him so much, does this sound like someone who is a victim?
If you reflect upon these point you will understand why we Muslim do not consider this a mistake at all.
I have provided you with as little as 1% of the great characteristics of Muhammed but you replied by saying:
I said:you avoid talking about that particular point by mentioning other things that he has done or that he was part of its all a myth
End Quote...Defender Of Faith wrote: »You appear to be extremely ignorant of the life of Muhammed to claim that what I said is a myth without pointing out a single fact or how was it false.
I suggest you read a Biography about the prophet(PBUH) read the one written by Lesley Hazleton an agnostic Jew who neither like or hate Islam and hence is very objective instead of directing you to one written by Islamic scholars for you to say its Biased. It's called "The First Muslim: The Story of Muhammad" read it to enlighten and educate yourself about this man before you criticize him.
To which am very thankful as this is the first time you have provided a Hadith, I have replied to the texts you have provided in my previous post as follows:All in all I provided logic and common sense, on top of that I provided texts from hadith (look at my last post)
Texts 1 & 2
My replay:Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".
al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."
Text 3Defender Of Faith wrote: »I have stated before:
"The irony is that when discussing rape your argument is based on how Sharia makes it nearly impossible to prove the rape will let me tell you this again Sharia makes it similarly impossible to prove that a certain man or women had committed a homosexual act."
The prophet clearly states "whomever you find" this is subjected to the same rules involved in proving adultery or Zina. This will of course only be possible if the homosexual manifested his act on public if he manifest and this act in his private premise where no one can see him, nothing can be held against him & he's treated with respect,love and compassion.
I replied:Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death."
Text 4Defender Of Faith wrote: »Similar to the answer I gave above edited slightly:
"The irony is that when discussing rape your argument is based on how Sharia makes it nearly impossible to prove the rape will let me tell you this again Sharia makes it similarly impossible to prove that a certain man or women had committed a homosexual act."
The prophet clearly states if the man is "Seized" this is subjected to the same rules involved in proving adultery or Zina.
I replied:Reliance of the Traveller, p17.2 - "May Allah curse him who does what Lot's people did." This is also repeated in three other places.Defender Of Faith wrote: »Further evidence that Islam differentiate between homosexuality as an act and homosexuality as a person. The homosexual with inclination toward homosexual acts however chooses to not manifest such act, is not addressed in the hadith but rather those who manifest the act.
End Quote...
Use this post as a reference as I have addressed all the points you mentioned.In this debate the fact that you failed to talk clearly about the 3 main topics0 -
Defender OF Faith wrote: »You have to understand that all the Islamic laws are derived from the Qur'an & Hadith, hence am using the same source which is used to support the argument of inequality to prove otherwise presenting verses which clearly support equality between the genders, I have soundly answered your points and agreed with as much as 90% of what you said, and unless you can show me otherwise or point out how I am not comparing like with like my point will remain.
I was watching this discussion and I must admit that it confirmed my worries that there's a major flaw in argument with Muslims - twisting facts, non-acceptance of common sense when talking about issues and hiding behind ramble "quran says this, hadith says that" blah blah blah with everything. World moved on, time to use person's own brain to make judgment about what's good and bad, you don't need a medevial book to tell you what to do. Maybe just follow the rule "don't do others what hurts me" instead?
Lastly, Muslim world is greatly divided but you seem to be talking on behalf of all, which is wrong. Your views are not shared by all.
As an example, Muslim woman in this vid has quite different view to what was said in this thread by other Muslims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3WFDKFkFBA0 -
Baseless words supported by nothing other then your own sentiment.ArnieSilvia wrote: »I was watching this discussion and I must admit that it confirmed my worries that there's a major flaw in argument with Muslims - twisting facts, non-acceptance of common sense when talking about issues and hiding behind ramble "quran says this, hadith says that" blah blah blah with everything.
If you can prove to me that the "Medieval book" I follow contains teachings and judgements that are against what you deem logical and acceptable feel free to point them outArnieSilvia wrote: »World moved on, time to use person's own brain to make judgment about what's good and bad, you don't need a medevial book to tell you what to do. Maybe just follow the rule "don't do others what hurts me" instead?
What I have discussed is my views as a Sunni Muslim the largest denomination within Islam, I understand differences exist within the denomination I follow and refereed to them when needed.ArnieSilvia wrote: »Lastly, Muslim world is greatly divided but you seem to be talking on behalf of all, which is wrong. Your views are not shared by all.0 -
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You are using some common sense by admitting that the veil and Islam aren't a complete solution to rape in general and I appreciate that, I kindly ask you to have a look at the below link and tell me whether or not it summarises the Sharia law regarding rape, it this link is wrong please post a link that summarises everything: http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/show_article.php?main_id=6157
Common sense would tell you that there is NO "complete" solution to rape. I firmly believe that Islam provides the best solutions to reduce it, but rape will continue to happen in every society - it's a question of how much you can limit it.
I've had a look at your link. It misses one very big point - it only details the requirements necessary for capital punishment of the rapist ("Hadd"). You can still sufficiently prove a rape under Islamic law and still punish the rapist using physical/circumstantial/medical evidence - but you can't apply capital punishment using this evidence.
Here are three links for you to have a look at - they essentially summarise what I had originally said:
http://islam.about.com/od/crime/f/rape.htm
http://muslimgirl.net/6728/do-women-need-to-provide-four-witnesses-to-prove-rape/
http://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/10451/does-woman-need-four-witnesses-to-prove-rape-in-sharia-law (if you scroll down to the accepted answer, it references the current laws in Iran)You have given me examples of polygamy that suits you the best, I am also in a position to give examples that suit me, but I don't want this debate to be based on examples because it always give you an opportunity to focus on one side only as oppose to looking at the bigger picture.
In Islam polygamy favors the male and not the female, how can that be seen as equal in our modern society?
In Islam and Sharia a male will always have the bigger part of the inheritance, while this rule is logical in the past for obvious reasons it's not logical anymore in our modern society, how come this rule isn't challenged by different scholars in the 21st century? and how come this rule is fair and shows equality between men and women in our modern society?
I've explained to you why polygamy is permissible in Islam (and the strict conditions that are attached to it), and I've also explained why women having many husbands is far less practical. Our "modern society" treats men and women differently regarding certain issues - I could make a song and dance about every one of those issues and ask "how can that be seen as equal in our modern society" - and selectively choose the words "discrimination" and "patronising" to suit my arguments, but there's usually some rationale behind it, and we all just get on with it. Islam treats men and women identically in most circumstances, but not all - women don't have "full rights" and men don't have "full rights" (please refer to my first post), and I've explained the rationale behind it. You're free to disagree with it.
Islam's inheritance laws are every bit as relevant today as they were in the 7th century. What's changed? Women worked and had businesses back then, just as they do now. They were entitled to keep their earnings, and spend it however they wanted to, and their husband had no right to interfere - just as is the case for Muslim women today. The man had the greater burden of providing for his family, just as Muslim men are today, and the increased inheritance reflects that responsibility. Different roles and responsibilities.do you know this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Ramadan ? he's the only Muslim that I listened to who is ready to have a proper debate about some medieval aspects of Islam and challenge them, he is even banned from entering 6 Muslim countries because of his views on the governments and so on but he's also hated by some well known Imams because he is using common sense regarding some topics.
Have heard the name, but don't know very much about him. Intelligent dialogue is important - I can only comment on his "common sense" depending on what the issue at hand is.0 -
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Women's rights in Islam summed up here
Nope, that video doesn't sum up women's rights in Islam - it's a very biased video that makes no distinction between Islamic teachings and cultural practices.
Issues raised:
- A girl and boy meeting up in private being something which is disapproved of. Yes, this is something which is disapproved of in Islam, but it affects both men and women equally. The young man in question should have asked for her hand in marriage if he was so keen on her.
- Whips for fornication/adultery. Again, it affects both men and women equally - it is a serious punishment, but it reflects that it's considered a major sin in Islam.
- Forced marriages. This unfortunately happens in some cultures, but Islamically, a woman cannot be forced into a marriage against her will.
- Unhappy marriages. A woman is perfectly within her rights in Islam to file for divorce is she is being mistreated, and if her husband isn't treating her with kindness (something which HE is specifically commanded to do in The Quran, and in no uncertain terms)
- Domestic violence. Full article covering the topic here
- Women being restricted to travel. I covered that in a post in a different thread here, and there are no restrictions on a Muslim woman travelling and seeing the world, once she's accompanied by a mahram (male relative).
- Claims of a woman being raped by her uncle dismissed by her father as "do not question my brother’s honour". Islam aside, no self-respecting father on the planet would dismiss such a serious allegation from his daughter. Bringing Islam into the equation - rape is a very serious crime in Islam and the rapist is punishable by death, and incestuous relationships are categorically forbidden. "Family honour" is a problem in some cultures, but it cannot be used as an excuse to ignore a serious crime Islamically.0 -
confusedquark wrote: »
- Forced marriages. This unfortunately happens in some cultures, but Islamically, a woman cannot be forced into a marriage against her will.
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Not true.........http://islamqa.info/en/178318
Remember the quote from the Ayatollah Khomeini: "Fathers do not let your daughters see their first blood under your roof"0 -
confusedquark wrote: »- Unhappy marriages. A woman is perfectly within her rights in Islam to file for divorce is she is being mistreated, and if her husband isn't treating her with kindness (something which HE is specifically commanded to do in The Quran, and in no uncertain terms)
.
Again wrong. A man utters the words "I divorce you" three times to gain divorce. A woman goes through a much longer more tortuous rout. Also the Koran gives the man the right to beat his wife as has been agreed on and another thread here. Islam is deeply misogynistic there is little doubt.0 -
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I notice that this is your first contribution to the thread so before I respond I welcome you and I invite myself first before inviting you to be open minded and willing to explore and interact with what is being said and written in an intelligent and intellectual manner so that we may both benefit ~
If you have taken the time to read and reflect upon the link you provided you would realise that it does not contradict what the poster have said with regard to the women being forced into marriage, nowhere is the word "forced" mentioned or an equivalent such as "against her will".Not true.........http://islamqa.info/en/178318
Remember the quote from the Ayatollah Khomeini: "Fathers do not let your daughters see their first blood under your roof"
The issue in question regards the permissibility of arranging a marriage for the girl if the purpose serves a very real interest for her, and as you read it's an issue of dispute among the scholars and even those who agree upon it state that arranging a marriage is only permissible if a real interest is served for the women however, what the scholar Ibn Uthaymeen have said to me at least appears to be the most correct interpretation as it comply with the verse:
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"
And the numerous Hadith related to the matter.
End Quote.."Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him) was of the view that in the case of a girl who has reached the age of nine years it is stipulated that she give consent and he said: This is the view favoured by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, and this is the correct view.
With regard to the girl who is younger than the age of nine years, he favoured the view that the father does not have the right to arrange a marriage. He narrated from Ibn Shubrumah (may Allah have mercy on him) that he said: It is not permissible to arrange a marriage for a young girl who has not reached the age of puberty, because if we say that that is subject to her consent, her consent does not count (because she is too young to make such decisions), and when she does reach the age of puberty we believe that she should not be forced into a marriage. The Shaykh said: This view is the correct one, that the father should not arrange a marriage for his daughter until she reaches the age of puberty, and when she reaches the age of puberty he should not arrange a marriage unless she gives her consent.
The poster have said:Again wrong. A man utters the words "I divorce you" three times to gain divorce. A woman goes through a much longer more tortuous rout. Also the Koran gives the man the right to beat his wife as has been agreed on and another thread here. Islam is deeply misogynistic there is little doubt.
" A woman is perfectly within her rights in Islam to file for divorce is she is being mistreated"
You disagreed and claimed it's wrong but have supported this by merely saying " A woman goes through a much longer more tortuous rout", I cannot see how this statement proves that a women cannot file for a divorce in Islam.
I dont think you are aware of the divorce and marriage law in Islam as the women does certainly not go through a "tortuous route" in order to claim a divorce. Islam gives paramount importance to marriage as it's the only lawful means through which a man and a women can form a bond with each other and according to the Hadith “The most hated of permissible things to Allah is divorce.” as it leads crumbles the household and affect children and family members very negatively.
"Allah encourages the husband and wife to appoint arbitrators as the first step to aid in reconciliation in the process of divorce. If the reconciliation step fails, both the man and woman are guaranteed the right to divorce as established in the Quran, but the difference lies in the procedure for each one."
To understand more about divorce rules & law in Islam and how Islam did not put any difficulty through which the women just like the man can obtain her divorce:
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/92752/divorce-in-islam
In short there are two ways through which a women can file a divorce, the first is for the wife return her dowry to end the marriage or she can petition a judge for divorce, with cause and if approved she keeps the dowry.
This is hardly tedious or long.
This issue is usually taken out of context as shown by you, but when you take this verse into context and exploring the wisdom of the ruling behind it, it actually provide a solution for you when dealing with domestic violence.Also the Koran gives the man the right to beat his wife as has been agreed on and another thread here. Islam is deeply misogynistic there is little doubt.confusedquark wrote: »- Domestic violence. Full article covering the topic here
But taking a look at the empty context you gave with giving any qualification by saying "Islam premit you to beat your wife" we can see a contradiction when compared to the actual teachings of Islam and that of the prophet.
He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, “How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?”, In another narration: ‘Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not harm his neighbors. And I command you to take good care of the women.’
On the light of the above an alternative more valid interpretation to the word "idriboo" due to the complexity of the Arabic language and taking the context of the verse into account is "to separate, to part" rather then "Hit them lightly"*
*http://www.islamawareness.net/Wife/beating1.html0 -
Not true.........http://islamqa.info/en/178318
Remember the quote from the Ayatollah Khomeini: "Fathers do not let your daughters see their first blood under your roof"Again wrong. A man utters the words "I divorce you" three times to gain divorce. A woman goes through a much longer more tortuous rout. Also the Koran gives the man the right to beat his wife as has been agreed on and another thread here. Islam is deeply misogynistic there is little doubt.
Just curious as to whether you have actually spoken to a Muslim woman about these issues?
Don't believe what you read in The Sun or see on Sky News.0 -
The 'reward' of dozens of virgins in heaven for Muslim men is a good indication of how women are seen in Islamic society...objects.
All this sugar-coating I've read over the last few pages can't hide the fact that heaven in terms of Muslim males involves 'riding all around them'...i.e. having sex with loads of women they don't know.0 -
irishdude11 wrote: »The 'reward' of dozens of virgins in heaven for Muslim men is a good indication of how women are seen in Islamic society...objects.
All this sugar-coating I've read over the last few pages can't hide the fact that heaven in terms of Muslim males involves 'riding all around them'...i.e. having sex with loads of women they don't know.
There's much more to paradise to the Muslim then "sex" but I guess in this highly sexualised society "sex" is the only thing you would care about.
We are not ashamed to say that there will be sex in paradise. What do you think people will do in paradise? play the harp and sing hymns?
It's one of the many pleasures God has prepared in heaven, there are greater things then this for a Muslim such as seeing the face of our lord,the prophets and the companions. The prophet told about how the person in the lowest rank in heaven will have 10 times the kingdom of a king amongst the kings of the world, so we can only imagine what those in higher positions will obtain, and certainly it's not only sex.
Also this thread deals with women rights in Islam and we have been establishing so far that women our sisters and are equal to us, we are ordered as Men to lower our gaze in instances were we might think about them in such a way, A Muslim will kneel down to his mother feet in humility because his prophet have told him paradise is under her feet & her rights are 3x that of the father, how can we be objectifying women while holding them in such high esteem?. We were not "sugar coating" coating anything here my friend.0 -
Defender OF Faith wrote: »There's much more to paradise to the Muslim then "sex" but I guess in this highly sexualised society "sex" is the only thing you would care about.
We are not ashamed to say that there will be sex in paradise. What do you think people will do in paradise? play the harp and sing hymns?
It's one of the many pleasures God has prepared in heaven, there are greater things then this for a Muslim such as seeing the face of our lord,the prophets and the companions. The prophet told about how the person in the lowest rank in heaven will have 10 times the kingdom of a king amongst the kings of the world, so we can only imagine what those in higher positions will obtain, and certainly it's not only sex.
Its interesting that you have not disputed this argument about heaven. So on the basis that it will happen, how does it actually work? Having a crowd of virgins for each man that goes to heaven is going to be a bit difficult logistically. You can't recycle them for different men as a woman can only be a virgin once. Is being one of the virgins the woman's reward in heaven? Or does she get a crowd of virgin men?
I find it totally amazing that you cannot see the total lack of equality for women in your arguments, yet you still argue that because you honour and care for women (the same ones that are going to be your sex-slaves in heaven?) its all ok?0 -
Arguing about something that will happen in paradise a place which is an unseen world that we know little about is pointless. There's no duty or obligation for their to be "rights".Its interesting that you have not disputed this argument about heaven. So on the basis that it will happen, how does it actually work? Having a crowd of virgins for each man that goes to heaven is going to be a bit difficult logistically. You can't recycle them for different men as a woman can only be a virgin once. Is being one of the virgins the woman's reward in heaven? Or does she get a crowd of virgin men?
I find it totally amazing that you cannot see the total lack of equality for women in your arguments, yet you still argue that because you honour and care for women (the same ones that are going to be your sex-slaves in heaven?) its all ok?
We Muslim believe that every one in heaven will be pleased,every one will feel content with their position.God talk about paradise by saying “Therein you shall have (all) that your inner selves desire, and therein you shall have (all) for which you ask for.”[31:31-32] Therefore in Paradise its inhabitants, whether male or female, will have every thing that they wish for and they will abide therein forever.
No one will be single, a man will be reunited with his wife in this world & everyone will be married and there's no slavery, " therein shall they have pure spouses, and We shall admit them to a place of plenteous shade. (4:157)".0 -
I was, admittedly, being frivolous in my suggestions about the 72 virgins. I have no idea where this specific number came from, or even the suggestion of multiple virgins, I accept that there is no mention in any easily accessible English translation of the Quran. In that case you could clearly and unambiguously state 'that is not in the Quran' instead of arguing in circles round it.
I would not think that lying on couches eating all manner of exotic fruit would be any more entertaining in the long run than playing harps and singing hymns. The difference is that since you say the Quran is absolutely the word of God and not to be disbelieved in any way, whereas Christians are quite willing to accept the difference between teaching and poetic flights of fancy. And as I have already said, I do not accept either belief system personally.0 -
Again I myself sometimes wonder "will you ever get bored from living an eternal life?" It's a perfectly valid question to ask, but it's really not a concern to me right now, as am comparing something I understand little about, described as having the width of the heavens and earth, with this worldly life and its pleasures.I would not think that lying on couches eating all manner of exotic fruit would be any more entertaining in the long run than playing harps and singing hymns.
I wrote somewhere in this thread about how the Qur'an while being absolutely the word of God, it contain two main broad categories of verses, What's known as the Muhkamat/clear verses and the Mutashabehat/Unclear verses.The difference is that since you say the Quran is absolutely the word of God and not to be disbelieved in any way, whereas Christians are quite willing to accept the difference between teaching and poetic flights of fancy. And as I have already said, I do not accept either belief system personally.
It's the unclear verses that are open to interpretations and this gives fluidity to the Qur'an and a degree of openness to accept different interpretations in accordance with the needs and wants of society over time; however it's important to note that such interpretation are done in accordance with the rules of Usl-Al fiqh which is a science that deals with the methods acceptable in interpreting verses of the Qur'an, it's scholars & jurists who study this, coupled with their understanding of the state of society & people of the time that take upon this task. A Muslim cannot take a verse and interpret it according to his whims and desires.
I didnt quite understand what you meant by Christians being quite willing to accept the difference between teaching and poetic flights of fancy. But there are verses and chapters in the Qur'an that talks about the unseen; such as life after death,heaven & hell, however these are obviously differentiated from verses the offer guidance, directions & laws.0 -
... do people here realise the first University was founded by a Muslim woman? When you talk about "the way you treat your women" it's offensive because it assumes that all Muslim cultures are the same first and foremost, and also assumes that misogyny is the default when some muslim cultures are less misogynistic than western ones, and have even had more female heads of state. Also, Islam ALWAYS puts the onus on men for their "animal urges" before it puts the onus on women to cover up. Something our western culture does not do as we still regularly blame victims of sexual assault for how they dress. Hijab is not mandatory, though it is sunnah. Women choose it to de-emphasise certain features to push people into seeing others(like their intelligence). Some women who are muslim prefer to be more sexual and "immodest", and that's fine too. Muslim sex workers and exotic dancers exist, and they are still Muslim. There are Muslim cultures such as the Tuareg where the man covers up more often than the woman. Aside from there being several different schools Every culture and every individual has their own interpretation and path. I am friends with both Muslims and sex workers, so both ends of the extreme. Sometimes it becomes difficult to resolve the concept of "modesty" but I think we have a habit of conflating it with our western values in a lazy way.
Also assuming nobody here has heard of Queen Khadijah of the Maldives. She didn't let any man tell her what to do. Some real Game of Thrones stuff here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_of_the_Maldives
Muslim women are not subservient and assuming they are persecuted and oppressed is insulting and strips them of their autonomy. Funnily enough, we do the same with sex workers, so I guess you can't win no matter what you do as a woman.0 -
mollymosfet wrote: »... do people here realise the first University was founded by a Muslim woman? When you talk about "the way you treat your women" it's offensive because it assumes that all Muslim cultures are the same first and foremost, and also assumes that misogyny is the default when some muslim cultures are less misogynistic than western ones, and have even had more female heads of state. Also, Islam ALWAYS puts the onus on men for their "animal urges" before it puts the onus on women to cover up. Something our western culture does not do as we still regularly blame victims of sexual assault for how they dress. Hijab is not mandatory, though it is sunnah. Women choose it to de-emphasise certain features to push people into seeing others(like their intelligence). Some women who are muslim prefer to be more sexual and "immodest", and that's fine too. Muslim sex workers and exotic dancers exist, and they are still Muslim. There are Muslim cultures such as the Tuareg where the man covers up more often than the woman. Aside from there being several different schools Every culture and every individual has their own interpretation and path. I am friends with both Muslims and sex workers, so both ends of the extreme. Sometimes it becomes difficult to resolve the concept of "modesty" but I think we have a habit of conflating it with our western values in a lazy way.
Also assuming nobody here has heard of Queen Khadijah of the Maldives. She didn't let any man tell her what to do. Some real Game of Thrones stuff here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_of_the_Maldives
Muslim women are not subservient and assuming they are persecuted and oppressed is insulting and strips them of their autonomy. Funnily enough, we do the same with sex workers, so I guess you can't win no matter what you do as a woman.
Please tell me a Muslim society where women are totally equal to men, and which is less misogynistic than Western societies. I'd be happy to move there.
Most Muslim women ARE subservient, as they accept membership of a religion that tells them that their value is less than that of men; their sworn testimony is only half the value of that of man, for instance.0 -
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Please tell me a Muslim society where women are totally equal to men, and which is less misogynistic than Western societies. I'd be happy to move there.
Tell me of a western society were women are totally equal to men. No such society exists.
5 Muslim countries elected female presidents - something the US has yet to do.Most Muslim women ARE subservient, as they accept membership of a religion that tells them that their value is less than that of men; their sworn testimony is only half the value of that of man, for instance.
A typical non-muslim understanding of the Qu'ran. If a woman's value was less than that of a man, why would there be so many female public officials in Muslim countries? Islam does not preach this.
The inequality in muslim countries is cultural - and more specifically in many cases - colonial. Almost all Muslim countries were affected by European colonialism and for example many of their anti-LGBT laws are colonial artefacts rather than that of Sharia.0 -
Just to point out that Turkey, a muslim country, decriminalised homosexuality under a Caliph 150 years before Ireland did.
Most of the anti-LGBTQ values present in the Muslim world actually come from western colonialist values that were absorbed into their cultures. While Islam is not a homophobic religion, in the presence of these values it's unfortunately quite easy to read it that way. The same is true of Christianity, and this we have Uganda.
There are Muslim LGBTQs, and some of them don't even make a distinction between the "act" and "person" as there are many different ways to interpret the Qu'ran. Please understand that there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and many Muslims in the west who's social values are in fact more progressive than the average white westerner since they understand oppression more deeply. There are potentially thousands or even millions or Muslims who will tell you homosexuality is perfectly fine.
I am against all forms of homophobia whether it be against the person or act, but we should not be quick to judge the Muslim world when it's largely the fault of European imperialists(or a reaction to what they perceive as modern western values) that those values exist. We need to get our collective boot of the Muslim world's throat before we demand they modernise to our standards.0 -
I didn't ask about female presidents. Ireland has elected a female president. I asked you to tell me a Muslim society where men and women are perfectly equal...mollymosfet wrote: »Tell me of a western society were women are totally equal to men. No such society exists.
5 Muslim countries elected female presidents - something the US has yet to do.
A typical non-muslim understanding of the Qu'ran. If a woman's value was less than that of a man, why would there be so many female public officials in Muslim countries? Islam does not preach this.
The inequality in muslim countries is cultural - and more specifically in many cases - colonial. Almost all Muslim countries were affected by European colonialism and for example many of their anti-LGBT laws are colonial artefacts rather than that of Sharia.
The Qur'an says that the testimony of a woman is worth half that of a man. And that women should inherit half of what a man inherits.
Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.
Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."
What's to misunderstand?0 -
So much language - so little thought . So much doctrine - so little reasoning.0
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You can't pull random passages out of the Qu'ran without looking at them in context. People always get this wrong. I am absolutely certain that if you actually googled those and read up you would get your answer, yet you demand answers of muslims and muslim allies or else you paint the whole religion as misogynist.
Show me a Christian/Secular society where men and women are perfectly equal.0 -
Islam is not a "bad" religion. No more than Christianity, Judaism, and any other religion that people truly believe in. If those within those faiths choose to contravene the tenets of their religion for personal enhancement, and if their actions are of hatred and despair then they must be the enemies that Islam and the Prophet warned about.0
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mollymosfet wrote: »You can't pull random passages out of the Qu'ran without looking at them in context. People always get this wrong. I am absolutely certain that if you actually googled those and read up you would get your answer, yet you demand answers of muslims and muslim allies or else you paint the whole religion as misogynist.
Show me a Christian/Secular society where men and women are perfectly equal.
So tell me the context that changes the fact that the Qur'an says that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man, or that a woman should inherit half what a man inherits?
YOU are claiming they mean something else other than the meaning that is there in black and white. So it's up to you to explain.
I never claimed that in any Christian or secular society men and women are perfectly equal. There is a long way to go. But they are not contenting with people who believe the above.0 -
phater phagan wrote: »Islam is not a "bad" religion. No more than Christianity, Judaism, and any other religion that people truly believe in. If those within those faiths choose to contravene the tenets of their religion for personal enhancement, and if their actions are of hatred and despair then they must be the enemies that Islam and the Prophet warned about.
No, it's not a bad religion. But it certainly has elements that are discriminatory and promote inequality. And because of the nature of the religion - the claim and demand that everything what is written in the Qur'an is the direct and inerrant word of God, and the acceptance of this by most believers, those elements have a larger influence on them than in other religions.0 -
Sorry- i didn't realise the substance of the argument at the time I entered this forum. I agree with you Mollymosfet. No harm to you Katydid0
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