Attitude in the bus lane

07Lapierre

I think bus lanes should be abolished. Motorists ignore them, taxi's can use them and the Garda traffic unit don't have the resources to enforce the law.

Abolish them....problem solved.

Pawwed Rig

Speaking of complaints against buses, does anyone know if they are still responding? I have three complaints in within the last few weeks that haven't been addressed. Dublin Bus are usually pretty good about responding.
When cycling you are the vulnerable one. Cycle to keep yourself safe. If that involves taking primary position in a lane and getting beeped and swore at then so be it. Don't let it bother you. The ones that are tailgating and honking are also the ones that are most dangerous to you if they over take.

SparkySpitfire

bigar wrote: »

What do you propose a cyclist needs to do when there is a bus behind them? Get off and wait on the footpath until the bus passes and do so every time?

I find that when a bus overtakes me, I overtake it again a bit later when it is at a stop or junction. I doubt very much that cycles are the cause for slow traffic anywhere.

I propose they get rid of their bikes and get the bus instead.

Seriously, though, YES.

There could be 10 or 100 people on the bus and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or one.

LeinsterDub

mrbike wrote: »

Have a look again. That 'bike lane' is shared with the footpath. There's hardly room to do so, but that's the way we design bike lanes in this country.

Design would suggest planning and foresight went into the process not just paint a dashed line on that road and a solid line on that footpath.

SparkySpitfire

Aard wrote: »

You've obviously never used such a "cycle lane" before then!

I cycle at moderate speed (~20kmph) and last time I cycled in such a lane there were pedestrians spilling into the bike lane every hundred metres or so. Nowhere to overtake them, short of falling down the kerb. When I ring the bell the pedestrians get shocked and irate. Got called a prick once, so that was nice.

They don't work.

No and I never will.

And that's their fault! There's no need for pedestrians to take up the path AND the cycle lane. It's dangerous for them and cyclists, totally agree.

Keep ringing your bell and keep letting pedestrians know to get the f*ck out of the cycle lane when there's a footpath for their convenience.

monument

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

I propose they get rid of their bikes and get the bus instead.

Seriously, though, YES.

There could be 10 or 100 people on the bus and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or one.

If we want to be silly:

For most passengers, it would be serving the needs of the many better if more of the passangers cycled or cycling more often:

-- more room on the bus for people who have a greater need

-- getting / staying more healthy means less costs for the health services and a more productive workforce

-- less people on buses means less need for extra buses as travel demand rises, which means less emissions from both the manafacturing and running of said buses; less noise and less air polution; less congestion;

-- and less subsidising bus users with tax payer's money

mrbike

mmmcake wrote: »

60kph is the bus lane speed,so you admit to slowing the bus down to 30kph, pathetic behaviour.

The speed limit on that part of the n11 is 50kph, and I regularly beat the bus into town. Actually the bus slows me down. They have to stop all the time to pick up passengers. They also have to stop at traffic lights.

Also there are two other lanes on that road the bus can use to overtake when safe to do so.

The average speed of a bus in Dublin is 16.6kph, and trust me is not that low because of cyclists legally cycling in bus lanes.

LeinsterDub

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

There could be 10 or 100 people on the bus and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or one.

They sure do Mr Spock.

http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/kirk-and-spock-needs-quote.png

And there are far more drivers than bus passengers so they should be allowed use all available road space

paddyland

monument wrote: »

If we want to be silly:

For most passengers, it would be serving the needs of the many better if more of the passangers cycled or cycling more often:

-- more room on the bus for people who have a greater need

-- getting / staying more healthy means less costs for the health services and a more productive workforce

-- less people on buses means less need for extra buses as travel demand rises, which means less emissions from both the manafacturing and running of said buses; less noise and less air polution; less congestion;

-- and less subsidising bus users with tax payer's money

I have to challenge you on that one.

The more passengers using buses, the more efficient the bus service becomes. The more frequent and attractive the service, the safer, the cheaper, the more cost effective, less subsidy, the more choice available.

The less passengers using buses, services reduce, costs go up, lighter used services become infrequent, have to be subsidised more, or else abolished. Less frequent services, less reliability, means service less attractive, some people cycle instead, but far more use cars instead increasing the problems for everyone.

I am not stating that there should be more buses, or less bicycles. I am saying that your arguments are ill thought out, and predicated on a bias towards cycling, or dare I say it, an antagonism towards buses. There is nothing wrong with being biased towards cycling. Cycling is a good thing, for all the reasons you mention. But trying to undermine buses, and say there should be less buses, is not a clever argument to make. You need to take people out of cars, and onto buses, and onto bicycles. Taking people off of buses onto bicycles contributes comparatively nothing, until the cars are lessened.

Moving on to the eternal problem in the OP, I make the same answer I have made before, and the one answer ignored by practically everyone. The infrastructure is the problem. We have cyclists blaming bus drivers, bus drivers blaming cyclists, everyone blaming cars, but few enough blame rotten infrastructure design.

Millions were spent on cycle lanes in this city. Millions of other people's hard earned money. Millions, spent on junk. Rubbish cycle lanes, rubbish bus lanes, designed by abject amateurs, with no reference to best practice anywhere else, and no reference to the long suffering people who would actually have to use the damn things. That is why the Green Party sicken me. Pontificating, when they were in government about all the miles of new cycle lanes. They are not cycle lanes. They are rubbish. And every cyclist here will agree. What a waste of money, and a wasted opportunity.

The problem now is we would be told there is no money to redo it all. So the answer is stark. Either find the money, and redesign it all properly. Or else, failing that, everyone, and that means cyclists, bus drivers, car drivers, lorry drivers, whoever, are all just going to have to learn to live alongside each other, put up with each other, and try, for God's sake, to give an inch to each other, and show a modicum of courtesy. Blaming one, or the other, or the other, is a waste of time, and smacks of impatience and begrudgery.

Danjamin1

Actually I'm not blaming any one group in particular, I'm simply pointing out that extreme ignorance & dangerous activity is completely uncalled for by all road users. Particularly when it's for no particular reason (as I said the bus that was honking at me pulled in behind me & had previously cut across me to make a stop, I don't recall if it passed me again, but if it did I had moved to the cycle lane by that point).

I appreciate a bit of courtesy from other people and try to be courteous myself. Frankly some of the attitudes throughout the responses are disgraceful and personify the entire problem.

AlekSmart

Danjamin1 wrote: »

As a cyclist I'm getting tired of the attitude of some drivers in the bus lane. There's a lot of impatience on the Dublin roads when it comes to this. I'll preface this by saying I don't make a habit of adamantly cycling in the bus lane, if there's a cycle lane that's comfortable to use & easily accessible I'll use it, but otherwise I'll take to the road.

I've had drivers (who shouldn't be in the bus lane in the first place) tailgating closely & honking their horn, bus drivers making very close passes, also tailgating closely and honking their horn & taxi drivers doing the same. Not all drivers I might add, there's plenty of very considerate ones, but some would really try your patience.

Yesterday evening was a particular pain, it was a very wet & dark evening & I was cycling southbound on the N11 from town via Donnybrook. Cue a taxi driver honking his horn behind me even though the traffic was stopped at a red light 20 yards up the road.

Following this there was the bus that blocked me actually moving up to the off road cycle lane outside Donnybrook church & then closely overtaking me outside RTE only to cut across me to pull in to a bus stop immediately. Next incident was with the same bus on the N11 leading down to the UCD flyover. With the rain yesterday the cycle lane (which is in terrible condition on a good day) was riddled with puddles covering any cracks or potholes so I opted for the Bus lane as the safer choice. The same driver pulled closely behind me honking his horn & then proceeded to pull in to the bus stop behind me. The rest of the cycle home passed without any other incident.

That's just one journey,this kind of behaviour is a frequent occurrence for cyclists.

I don't want anyone to think I was purposely antagonising any other road users here, I was trying to get home as safely as possible in poor conditions. I just don't see the point in having such a poor attitude towards another road user. I was doing nothing wrong, I had my lights on my bike & I was wearing a hi-viz jacket & a helmet. I wasn't crawling along either, I was doing easily 30km/h. I stick to the rules as well, never run red lights, always signal before I move out to a lane. My use of the bus lane was based solely on either not being able to get on to the cycle path or the cycle path being in a poor condition & it was only for as long as necessary.

This kind of attitude on the roads is a daily occurrence that I for one am sick of. It's incredibly inconsiderate & dangerous.

Also I didn't get the bus route or registration number so I can't report them to Dublin Bus, hence this rant.

It's not ALL though,bad is it ?

A considered re-reading of the OP,allows me to focus on at least some positives....:)

It appears that the OP had some "moments" with ONE Bus Driver between Donnybrook and Belfield,however apart from the horn-honking,the actual rant could be said to be quite general in the Motorist Vs Cyclist genre ?

The main issue for me,is that everybody appears to have emerged unscathed from the confrontation.

It may also be worth noting that the N11 of an evening would be quite Bus Heavy,so presumably all of the other Bus & Coach Drivers managed to avoid brushing up against the OP,which is praiseworty of itself,one hopes ?

The rest of the cycle home passed without any other incident.

The main issue...another journey safely completed...(For both Busdriver AND Cyclist )

dubscottie

Danjamin1 wrote: »

(as I said the bus that was honking at me pulled in behind me & had previously cut across me to make a stop, I don't recall if it passed me again, but if it did I had moved to the cycle lane by that point).

Did you not stop to check that your bag etc was not open and maybe the driver was trying to get you attention???

100 reasons why he could of honked, but you presume its cause you are on a bike.

But when cyclists start observing red lights (i.e. when a green man comes on, you stay stopped) then maybe us other road users might start treating you with respect.

I travel by bus twice a week at most but always see cyclists oblivious to what is going on around them holding up busses or other traffic. (or choosing to ignore it).

Sean9015

mrbike wrote: »

The speed limit on that part of the n11 is 50kph, and I regularly beat the bus into town. Actually the bus slows me down. They have to stop all the time to pick up passengers. They also have to stop at traffic lights.

Also there are two other lanes on that road the bus can use to overtake when safe to do so.

The average speed of a bus in Dublin is 16.6kph, and trust me is not that low because of cyclists legally cycling in bus lanes.

Re the bold - SO DO CYCLISTS IF THEY ARE ON THE ROAD. The Rukles of the Road apply to you to.

And yes, I did cycle through Dublin when I commuted. I was probably the only cyclist who obeyed the Rules of the Road in that regard. And I would make sure I blocked any cyclists from passing me on the road at a stop line if possible.

You want to cycle on the road? THEN OBEY THE RULES!!!!!

Danjamin1

@AlekSmart: Exactly, part of the point of the original post is that for the vast majority of my journeys everything is fine, most drivers (and other road users) are courteous & very careful but there's some tools out there that would really have you wondering.

@dubscottie: I did check my bag at the next lights, there was nothing out of the ordinary with it, hadn't lost anything from my person along the way. From the way the driver cut across my previously & then drew up closely to me I'm presuming he was honking for me to get out of his way because he perceived himself to have more right to be there. There's a level of presumption here obviously.

It's not a cyclist vs motorist thing, it's an issue of common courtesy on the roads, in this case with regard to the bus lane. I could have written a similar post about irritating & dangerous behaviour of some other road users from my perspective from a car, but the reason it's more noticable when on a bike is that you're far more vulnerable so it's more dangerous. There's ignorant people everywhere that will do stupid things and act dangerously, but when it could lead to serious injury or worse (and it does more often than it should) then it's a serious problem. There's no need to be a**holes to each other when driving, cycling, walking, etc.

LeinsterDub

AlekSmart wrote: »

It may also be worth noting that the N11 of an evening would be quite Bus Heavy,so presumably all of the other Bus & Coach Drivers managed to avoid brushing up against the OP,which is praiseworty of itself,one hopes ?

Well praise (choose deity here) the rest of drivers decided to abide by the rules of the road and show some common manors

DrMike

Dublin Cycling Campaign/Cyclist.ie - The Irish Cycling Advocacy Network - intend to seek a meeting with Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Aircoach managements in the New Year to discuss better training for drivers.

We last met with Dublin Bus some five years ago in the presence of its chief driving instructor and just to record that it is our experience that driver behaviour generally had improved since the meeting.

Bear in mind too that all bus and coach drivers have to undergo annual CPC with an ADI under the Road Safety Authority professional driver training regime. Despite this we recognise that there are still some recidivist drivers who don't understand how to overtake cyclists safely and considerately. The 'dangerous overtaking' offence comes into play but unfortunately it has to be witnessed by a Garda unless you have convincing helmet-cam evidence. Don't forget to make a formal complain to local Garda station when these incidents happen. By formal we mean a statement that you write in your own time at home and present later to the Garda. You need to ask the Garda in the statement to sequester the CCTV footage from the bus involved. The recording hard-drive is wiped after approx. 4 days so you need to act swiftly.

Go to the Dublin Cycling Campaign's web-site and search for the legal advice section.

Pawwed Rig

Danjamin1 wrote: »

It's not a cyclist vs motorist thing, it's an issue of common courtesy on the roads, in this case with regard to the bus lane. I could have written a similar post about irritating & dangerous behaviour of some other road users from my perspective from a car, but the reason it's more noticable when on a bike is that you're far more vulnerable so it's more dangerous. There's ignorant people everywhere that will do stupid things and act dangerously, but when it could lead to serious injury or worse (and it does more often than it should) then it's a serious problem. There's no need to be a**holes to each other when driving, cycling, walking, etc.

This is the whole point. Cyclists and pedestrian and to a lesser extent motorcyclists are the vunerable road users. A car driver in city centre traffic is as safe as could be and cannot really be hurt by any of the above. The opposite is not true however which is why a bus/car/lorry driver require training before they are allowed behind the wheel. It is a moral responsibility to be as careful as possible around more vunerable users.
While I don't condone cyclists jumping red lights I have never heard of a cyclist destroying a car or injuring a car driver by these actions. They are more of a danger for pedestrians than anyone else.

I had a brief period of cycling in the city centre and tbh it is not for the faint hearted. I was hit by 2 taxis, nearly squashed by a bus, side swiped by 2 private vehicles. All of these people responded to nearly killing me with anger rather than an apology for variously moving off without looking, over taking within inches, being unaware of lanes. As others have said some people are just arseholes. There is no monopoly on one mode of transport.

Seaswimmer

DrMike wrote: »

Dublin Cycling Campaign/Cyclist.ie - The Irish Cycling Advocacy Network - intend to seek a meeting with Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Aircoach managements in the New Year to discuss better training for drivers.

We last met with Dublin Bus some five years ago in the presence of its chief driving instructor and just to record that it is our experience that driver behaviour generally had improved since the meeting.

Bear in mind too that all bus and coach drivers have to undergo annual CPC with an ADI under the Road Safety Authority professional driver training regime. Despite this we recognise that there are still some recidivist drivers who don't understand how to overtake cyclists safely and considerately. The 'dangerous overtaking' offence comes into play but unfortunately it has to be witnessed by a Garda unless you have convincing helmet-cam evidence. Don't forget to make a formal complain to local Garda station when these incidents happen. By formal we mean a statement that you write in your own time at home and present later to the Garda. You need to ask the Garda in the statement to sequester the CCTV footage from the bus involved. The recording hard-drive is wiped after approx. 4 days so you need to act swiftly.

Go to the Dublin Cycling Campaign's web-site and search for the legal advice section.

I use a fair few bus lanes on my cycling commute and by and large I find Dublin Bus to be pretty good. The odd "out of service" Dublin bus appears to be more in a hurry but in my opinion Dublin bus are streets ahead of the other (mostly coach) operators.

Maybe their training is better, maybe they are in less of a hurry as they stop more often or maybe they are more used to cyclists as most of their routes are in urban areas.

blackwhite

micar wrote: »

60km around the city centre???? I don't think so!!!!!!!

The limit is 60kmph on the road that the OP is about, and also in the google street view link that was posted in the post you quoted (I do notice that you deleted part with the link from the quote though - maybe you noticed how it doesn't support your little quip).

Macy0161

FunLover18 wrote: »

Ok sorry for the confusion. I am aware that cyclists are allowed in most bus lanes in the same way that most drivers are allowed in them after certain time however if there's an off road cycle lane available you'd be better off using it when you can to save yourself the hassle.

A lot of the cycle paths on this route are in a pretty ropey condition, with potholes, and roots across them. They probably look fine from a car/ bus/ taxi, but when you're actually cycling them you get a completely different perspective. They are not the oft quoted "perfectly good cycle lane", that a cyclist is choosing not to use.

I would have similar experiences to the op on the N11, even in the last few weeks when various sections of the cyclepath have been randomly closed (clear signposts made no difference to the dicks), or blocked by cars (which is several times a week). I have on-going issues with the stretch between Whites Cross and Brewery Road inbound - poor surface, poor interactions with buses and pedestrians and dumps you in a crap spot at the Brewery Road junction. I often use the bus lane, but then vehicles take issue and try and intimidate you.

Must say I find Dublin Bus generally ok. Private Buses (especially Air Coach and Wexford Bus) and Taxi's, and cars that shouldn't even be in the Bus Lane are the main offenders in my experience. I had one taxi give out to me for not using the cyclepath, then once he'd past, a few hundred metres down the road was up and on and blocking the cyclepath to get a fare!

blackwhite

Macy0161 wrote: »

I had one taxi give out to me for not using the cyclepath, then once he'd past, a few hundred metres down the road was up and on and blocking the cyclepath to get a fare!

I really hope you gave a sharp rap on the window as you passed the pr*ck


(that, or reported him to the regulator)

Macy0161

DrMike wrote: »

Dublin Cycling Campaign/Cyclist.ie - The Irish Cycling Advocacy Network - intend to seek a meeting with Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Aircoach managements in the New Year to discuss better training for drivers.

Please add Wexford Bus to the list!

Jawgap

Macy0161 wrote: »

Please add Wexford Bus to the list!

.....and Kavanagh's

bigar

Have to agree that Dublin Bus drivers are the most courteous towards cyclist and indeed other traffic. Bus Eireann are mostly OK to but I did had a few shout at me for god knows what reason.

The worst are Matthews and Sword Express. Not only do they endanger cyclists, they seem to swerve all over the road just to get through. They really could use the training Dublin Bus drivers are getting.

The less said about Taxi's the better

mmmcake

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I don't recall if it passed me again, but if it did I had moved to the cycle lane by that point).
.

so when you where in the cycle lane you had no problems

Danjamin1 wrote: »

There's no need to be a**holes to each other when driving, cycling, walking, etc.

so why don’t you use the cycle lane

Lemming

dubscottie wrote: »

But when cyclists start observing red lights (i.e. when a green man comes on, you stay stopped) then maybe us other road users might start treating you with respect.

Ah ... this old pig-ignorant-as-muck argument.

I'm a cyclist. I'm also a driver. On any given day I see more bad behaviour, aggressive behaviour, poor judgement, lack of attention to surroundings, and .. wait for it ... running red lights by drivers behind the wheel than cyclists. Even statistically speaking, more drivers run lights than cyclists in any given hour, day, year, whatever.

Change the tune, it's old. And a dishonest argument.

mmmcake

Lemming wrote: »

Ah ... this old pig-ignorant-as-muck argument.
Change the tune, it's old. And a dishonest argument.

I'm a driver. I'm also a cyclist. On any given day I see more bad behaviour, aggressive behaviour, poor judgement, lack of attention to surroundings, and .. wait for it ... running red lights by cyclists than drivers behind the wheel. Even statistically speaking, more cyclists run lights than drivers in any given hour, day, year, whatever.

Yea,yea,yea, cyclists are little eco warrior angels saving the planet who are always considerate careful road users.
Use the bike lane and you would have nothing to complain about, me thinks you are just obstreperous dicks looking for trouble.*

*not all, but a sizable percentage.

Danjamin1

mmmcake wrote: »

so why don’t you use the cycle lane

I do use the cycle lanes, are you reading the thread at all?

Nothing worse than a simple mind who can't deviate from their illogical hatred of one group.

LeinsterDub

mmmcake wrote: »

I'm a driver. I'm also a cyclist. On any given day I see more bad behaviour, aggressive behaviour, poor judgement, lack of attention to surroundings, and .. wait for it ... running red lights by cyclists than drivers behind the wheel. Even statistically speaking, more cyclists run lights than drivers in any given hour, day, year, whatever.

Yea,yea,yea, cyclists are little eco warrior angels saving the planet who are always considerate careful road users.
Use the bike lane and you would have nothing to complain about, me thinks you are just obstreperous dicks looking for trouble.*

*not all, but a sizable percentage.

90% of cyclists?
http://irishcycle.com/myths/myths-law-breaking/

One survey found 90% of motorists were breaking the 30km/h zone in Dublin City Centre.

mmmcake

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I do use the cycle lanes, are you reading the thread at all?

Nothing worse than a simple mind who can't deviate from their illogical hatred of one group.

Nothing worse than a ignoramus selfish individual who knows how to remedy their problem, but wont.
Use the cycle lane all the time and you will have NO grievance.