Debate on the Working Group on Review of Firearms Licensing

Sparks

BTW, those sites that are allowing comments? That's a free conduit to people who aren't in the sport and wouldn't know a muzzle from a trigger. We ought to be using them to explain what it is we do, how the law is already set up to keep everyone (including ourselves) safe, and why what was said this morning was utter horse hockey. Because they just don't know...

Heckler

Problem is the attitude "well if even one legally held firearm is used in a crime they should be banned outright".

Very hard to have a reasonable debate with someone of that mindset.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

I don't mind so much that they don't know firearms - they're TDs, I don't expect them to be crack shots - but that they don't even know the basics of the existing firearms legislation (and I really do mean basics) when going into a Dail committee to discuss a new firearms act, that's unacceptable.

We always assumed they would not know the law to the degree others do/might, but as you said, to know nothing about a topic that THEY will decide upon is beyond scary. That is the key point. They will decide and have input to this.

It's like asking me to chair a committee on Yodeling. :mad:

Witcher

If this is the way this review is going to continue, we'll all be packing our guns in grease this time next year.

Heckler

Strider wrote: »

If this is the way this review is going to continue, we'll all be packing our guns in grease this time next year.

Haven't seen the footage but going by reports its looking bad alright. I have a nagging feeling that their mind is already made up and they won't be swayed by any amount of petitions or submissions but will put on a dog and pony show to make it look like they carefully considered everything.

Suffering Jbox

Sparks,
On Broadsheet.ie, you say Breivik used an automatic rifle. Are you sure? - I recall many news items saying it was semi-automatic.

juice1304

Suffering Jbox wrote: »

Sparks,
On Broadsheet.ie, you say Breivik used an automatic rifle. Are you sure? - I recall many news items saying it was semi-automatic.

He used a rugar mini 14 and it was converted from what i remember.

Grizzly 45

Nope it was a bog standard Ruger mini14,but it was "accesorised" to the Nines.He had about 5 kilos of junk hanging off it.Everything from a bayonet to tactical flashlites. but modified to full or select fire....Thats a first I've ever heard of.

Suffering Jbox

Per wikipedia: Upon returning to Norway, Breivik obtained a legal permit for a .223-caliber Ruger Mini-14 semi-automatic carbine, ostensibly for the purpose of hunting deer. He bought it in late 2010 for €1,400 ($2000). He wanted to purchase a 7.62x39mm Ruger Mini-30 semi-automatic carbine, but did however for unknown reasons buy the Mini-14.

Nothing about making it an automatic. What say you Sparks?

Cass

Does it really matter.

Lads ye are discussing a topic that has nothing to do with OUR reasons for having sporting firearms and to give it air time is simply prolonging a debate on a topic we should be ignoring. Not from the "i don't see it" point of view, but from the "it's not relevant to our sport" point of view.

The more you talk of such things the more those topics stay in the minds of people. No such incidents in our history (over 150 years) so it's not germane.

Sparks

Suffering Jbox wrote: »

Sparks,
On Broadsheet.ie, you say Breivik used an automatic rifle. Are you sure? - I recall many news items saying it was semi-automatic.

I'd heard news reports saying he'd gotten a Mini14 and illegally modified it. But they may have been wrong. I know he tried to get an AK47 but couldn't. But Cass is right, it's a sidetrack and one I shouldn't have bitten. But you can't be right all the time, that'd be boring :P

knockon

Sent by email to Sean Kenny TD

sean.kenny@oir.ie


Sir,


I am a referee with the IRFU where I served from 1998 to 2010 on the National Panel of the top 40 referees for 12 years. Since 2010 I moved on to the TMO Panel where I am one of 8 Television Match Officials representing Ireland in the European Rugby competitions while also the Guinness Pro 12 games.


I also have another sport, I am a pistol Target Shooter. I am one of the Licensed Firearm owners that you were discussing at the Justice committee this morning when you raised the murder of hundred in Pakistan yesterday morning. I would have though that it would be prudent for a man in your position to familiarise himself with Irelands firearms legislation before making ridiculous comments that have impugned the integrity of law abiding sports people.


Yours sincerely,

Heckler

Maybe I'm completely off bat here but what a bout a combination of a solicitor, someone extremely well versed in firearms legislation i.e. Sparks or Cass just from this forum maybe theres many more, and a very media savvy PR consultant.

In the eyes of the non shooting public theres absolutely no reason why any civilian should have a firearm.

This to me is the hardest obstacle to overcome.

Once someone brings up the notion of "public safety" its an uphill struggle.

Even from friends of mine i've known for 40 years they can't understand why I'd rather punch holes in paper than tap a ball into a cup in the ground. These friends play golf, soccer, cycle etc but if I mention anything about my sport I'm a gun nut. And theres no arguing with them. All you get is "why do you have to have a lethal weapon".

These are rational, hardworking people with degrees, diplomas, phd's out the swanny along with wives and children.

But when it comes to firearms clear thinking goes out the window for some reason.

And the more you argue the more they consider you a "gun nut"

Grizzly 45

Nice one Knockon.
That email should serve as a template[,if we may?] to be used by us to send mr Kenny TD a message that we are "a bit upset"about his thoughtless commentary..You just modify the first paragraph to say what you do in normal life and are a gun owner and shooting fan.Maybe if he gets enough messages from the Workers and proletariat that Labour "once "repersented he might realise that we arent religious nutters Hell bent on killing a bunch of children and are actually mostly working class in some or form or other, Joes and Janes who are peed off with his insensitive comments and would he please go away and get a grip on some basic knowledge of our firearms laws.

Grizzly 45

Heckler wrote: »

And the more you argue the more they consider you a "gun nut"

You reply "Yes I am a gun nut and Damn proud of it too you discriminitory SOB!:eek: Ask them do youstill refer to gay people as "Queer or Fag? or black people as a "wog,or spear chucker " still to their faces??No?Well referring to me as a gun nut is as offensive if you went and called a Jew a Shylock!
That usually shocks them as most people dont want to offend anyone in these PC times and actually puts them on the back foot,which actually opens them to have to enquire about what caused you to be offended.Ive used it a few times and it has worked enough for them to belive they have offended a minority and to listen properly to my views.
Simply said;we have to "come out of the closet," and defend our sport/lifestyle choice at every opportunity with an unapolagetic attitude and really take offence at being called something Un Pc and discriminitory.
Be a gun nut and be proud of it.:p

Wadi14

I have just sent off and email to david Stanton and a copy of it to sean Kenny pointing out a few things about the current legislation and as an ex peace keeper with the United Nations my taking offence to deputy Kenny's remark linking the Taliban and me as a firearms holder.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You reply "Yes I am a gun nut and Damn proud of it too you discriminitory SOB!:eek:

Actually, I'm not a gun nut, I'm a target shooting nut. Seriously, that's like saying a golfer is a golf club nut...

Heckler

Maybe I'm completely off bat here but what a bout a combination of a solicitor, someone extremely well versed in firearms legislation i.e. Sparks or Cass just from this forum maybe theres many more, and a very media savvy PR consultant.

In the eyes of the non shooting public theres absolutely no reason why any civilian should have a firearm.

This to me is the hardest obstacle to overcome.

Once someone brings up the notion of "public safety" its an uphill struggle.

Even from friends of mine i've known for 40 years they can't understand why I'd rather punch holes in paper than tap a ball into a cup in the ground. These friends play golf, soccer, cycle etc but if I mention anything about my sport I'm a gun nut. And theres no arguing with them. All you get is "why do you have to have a lethal weapon".

These are rational, hardworking people with degrees, diplomas, phd's out the swanny along with wives and children.

But when it comes to firearms clear thinking goes out the window for some reason.

And the more you argue the more they consider you a "gun nut"

Heckler

Opps. Double post there. Sent off an email to Kenny as well.

Heckler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You reply "Yes I am a gun nut and Damn proud of it too you discriminitory SOB!:eek: Ask them do youstill refer to gay people as "Queer or Fag? or black people as a "wog,or spear chucker " still to their faces??No?Well referring to me as a gun nut is as offensive if you went and called a Jew a Shylock!
That usually shocks them as most people dont want to offend anyone in these PC times and actually puts them on the back foot,which actually opens them to have to enquire about what caused you to be offended.Ive used it a few times and it has worked enough for them to belive they have offended a minority and to listen properly to my views.
Simply said;we have to "come out of the closet," and defend our sport/lifestyle choice at every opportunity with an unapolagetic attitude and really take offence at being called something Un Pc and discriminitory.
Be a gun nut and be proud of it.:p

Sorry Grizz. I agree with you on most gun related stuff but can't agree with you on this one. Calling someone a gun nut isn't like calling someone a fag or a spearchucker.

To me a "gun nut" is someone with a gun fethish. Someone who owns lots of guns because they can and dreams of the day someone breaks into their house and they can lawfully shoot them.

On the other hand a "gun enthuasist" is someone who appreciates the skill of gun shooting accurately, the machination and engineering of such precision instruments and yes to me at least how great they can look.

I've hung replicas like others would hang art because to me they are a work of beauty. Trying to explain that to others is another story,

On the other hand I've never had one person walk into my house, see the replicas and not exclaim "wow, is that real ? can I hold it ?".

And anyone whos ever found out I shoot have always asked me if they could come down to the range to try it..

Anyone I've ever brought has left with a positive attitude and a smile on their face.

Even the totally anti gun piers morgan can be seen to be smiling while firing this .50 the hypocrite.

Can't find the clip at the moment but it was during his examination of firearms in the US. Post it up tomorrow.

Maybe I'm reading the look on his face wrong.

Brought a friend of mine who never shot before clay shooting and pistol shooting. He liked the pistol more than the shotgun but said he'd probably never do either again. Just wasn't his bag. And thats fair enough but he'd never have a problem with anyone else doing it because he saw how well it was run and conducted.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, I'm not a gun nut, I'm a target shooting nut. Seriously, that's like saying a golfer is a golf club nut...

Ok Sparks you go and try to explain that difference to a few of the spanners over on broadsheet.ie or the journal.ie.:pac: Ignoramuses like that you have been verbally duelling with over the night,wont want or try to see the difference..All they see is a GUN= evil and anyone who owns one = GUN Nut..

Grizzly 45

Heckler wrote: »

Sorry Grizz. I agree with you on most gun related stuff but can't agree with you on this one. Calling someone a gun nut isn't like calling someone a fag or a spearchucker.

Actually it is ..Its a deogoratory term meant to belittle a certain persons views,
Its accepted that if you said that in a work place any comment meant to demean a person is classified offensive.

To me a "gun nut" is someone with a gun fethish. Someone who owns lots of guns because they can and dreams of the day someone breaks into their house and they can lawfully shoot them.

FETISH def
a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.
"a man with a fetish for surgical masks"

an excessive and irrational devotion or commitment to a particular thing.
"men will never understand a woman's fetish for shoes and handbags"
2.
an inanimate object worshipped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit.
synonyms: juju, talisman, charm, amulet; More

Doesn't fit your above description at all Heckler.Whats "lots of guns"?? I mean the AGS think my 10 guns is lots of guns.I think it is pretty small collection.. Yet my German relatives between two of them own thirty guns and my half brother in the US owns over fourty.None of us think that is lots.Yet there people out there that think two is "lots".That idea of doing a kill on someone braking and entering is really only something expressed by [1] idiots sounding off on chat groups or in the pub who have never owned a gun in the first place [2] Would literally crap themselves if they had to do it in reality [3] have never thougt the whole sequence of events thru and the hassle they would have to [4] seem to live a lot in Ireland for some reason.
Doesnt sound like any gun owners I know here.

On the other hand a "gun enthuasist" is someone who appreciates the skill of gun shooting accurately, the machination and engineering of such precision instruments and yes to me at least how great they can look.

With you there.

I've hung replicas like others would hang art because to me they are a work of beauty. Trying to explain that to others is another story,

Why have you to justify to anyone what you want to hang on your walls?

n the other hand I've never had one person walk into my house, see he replicas and not exclaim "wow, is that real ? can I hold it ?".

And anyone whos ever found out I shoot have always asked me if they could come down to the range to try it..
Anyone I've ever brought has left with a positive attitude and a smile on their face.

So has this worked on your discriminitory golf playing degree totin friends?:P

Even the totally anti gun piers morgan can be seen to be smiling while firing this .50 the hypocrite.

Can't find the clip at the moment but it was during his examination of firearms in the US. Post it up tomorrow.

]

Piers Morgan is an utter waste of valuable oxygen and natural resources on this planet.So I wouldn't pay that little toad any attention.Jeremy Clarkson did the right thing by punching him one in the snot:D.If he couldnt even take on Clarkson in an old dads tussle,he isnt even worth talking about.Plus he got his anti gun agenda slapped about his head so many times he isnt creditable anymore as a counter arguement.

Brought a friend of mine who never shot before clay shooting and pistol shooting. He liked the pistol more than the shotgun but said he'd probably never do either again. Just wasn't his bag. And thats fair enough but he'd never have a problem with anyone else doing it because he saw how well it was run and conducted

And thats great and what we want.But how do you deal with the utterly irrational who just bleat guns are bad ,and no I'll never try it " types out there?

Heckler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Actually it is ..Its a deogoratory term meant to belittle a certain persons views,
Its accepted that if you said that in a work place any comment meant to demean a person is classified offensive.



FETISH def
a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.
"a man with a fetish for surgical masks"

an excessive and irrational devotion or commitment to a particular thing.
"men will never understand a woman's fetish for shoes and handbags"
2.
an inanimate object worshipped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit.
synonyms: juju, talisman, charm, amulet; More

Doesn't fit your above description at all Heckler.Whats "lots of guns"?? I mean the AGS think my 10 guns is lots of guns.I think it is pretty small collection.. Yet my German relatives between two of them own thirty guns and my half brother in the US owns over fourty.None of us think that is lots.Yet there people out there that think two is "lots".That idea of doing a kill on someone braking and entering is really only something expressed by [1] idiots sounding off on chat groups or in the pub who have never owned a gun in the first place [2] Would literally crap themselves if they had to do it in reality [3] have never thougt the whole sequence of events thru and the hassle they would have to [4] seem to live a lot in Ireland for some reason.
Doesnt sound like any gun owners I know here.






With you there.


Why have you to justify to anyone what you want to hang on your walls?



So has this worked on your discriminitory golf playing degree totin friends?:P


]

Piers Morgan is an utter waste of valuable oxygen and natural resources on this planet.So I wouldn't pay that little toad any attention.Jeremy Clarkson did the right thing by punching him one in the snot:D.If he couldnt even take on Clarkson in an old dads tussle,he isnt even worth talking about.Plus he got his anti gun agenda slapped about his head so many times he isnt creditable anymore as a counter arguement.



And thats great and what we want.But how do you deal with the utterly irrational who just bleat guns are bad ,and no I'll never try it " types out there?

So many points there ! You know we are on the same page. C'mon You're not naive enough not to have read certain websites, "the shooters log" etc where they run articles every week about the best weapon for concealment, stopping power etc.

You do quote,

an excessive and irrational devotion or commitment to a particular thing.

Many Americans do have this relation to guns. Don't even try to deny it Grizz.

And yes many Americans have an inexcessive, rational and noncommital regard to firearms but don't disregard the others because of this.

Theres no refuting the american fascination with firearms. Trying to explain that a 250 year law may not be relevant in todays society is a seemingly pointless exercise.

Heckler

Anyway this has little to do with what we are all trying to do here which is trying to stop this nonsense being proposed.

Wadi14

Guys, just checking if any of you picked up on what deputy Kenny said on the you tube clip at 1.43 on the clip, he said " I accept there is a need to tighten up the regulations" I have asked the committee chairman to explain this remark and is it the view of the committee prior to the reviews completion.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok Sparks you go and try to explain that difference to a few of the spanners over on broadsheet.ie or the journal.ie.:pac: Ignoramuses like that you have been verbally duelling with over the night,wont want or try to see the difference..All they see is a GUN= evil and anyone who owns one = GUN Nut..

Yup, but as always, I don't care about those individual people, I'm thinking of the much larger group of undecided people who are also reading but not participating. I don't want them deciding I'm some stereotype sitting in his mom's basement with a copy of Guns'n'Ammo and some gun oil. I want them to see what our sport is actually like, I want this to be the image they have in their mind when they think of target shooting:




(And yes, I know, not everyone shoots ISSF, but that's so far from the point that you can't see it from there. You know what I mean - I want them to see the sport as it is, not the stereotype Hollywood put in their heads of a bunch of dodgy eejits fetishising guns).

knockon

Sparks wrote: »

I want this to be the image they have in their mind when they think of target shooting:

Exactly - and when they do they see ordinary people who are also sports people, some are past Olympians other are Golfers, Rugby people etc.

Grizzly 45

Heckler wrote: »

So many points there ! You know we are on the same page. C'mon You're not naive enough not to have read certain websites, "the shooters log" etc where they run articles every week about the best weapon for concealment, stopping power etc.

You do quote,

an excessive and irrational devotion or commitment to a particular thing.

Many Americans do have this relation to guns. Don't even try to deny it Grizz.

And yes many Americans have an inexcessive, rational and noncommital regard to firearms but don't disregard the others because of this.

Theres no refuting the american fascination with firearms. Trying to explain that a 250 year law may not be relevant in todays society is a seemingly pointless exercise.

Simple answer for anyone who brings that type of nonsense up.."We are NOT IN AMERICA!And if we wer all my concerns would be totally irrevelant.":D

It is pointless trying to compare Ireland and the USA in any shape or form as comparing a blue whale is to a field mouse and especially firearms in their;availability,possesion laws,amount and especially attiudes to them and their usage in self defence,which on an aside according to the latest FBI statistics personal attacks are dropping yet again in any state that has concealed carry permits now something like 45 states. Yes you will have people discussing home defence loads ,best concealed carry etc because its revelant and they can do so.Yeah every month there is plenty of "gun porn" out the newsstands and like Playboy its nice to read the articles and check out Miss Dec or the latest tricked out whatever.However the chance of Joe Average going down to the gun store and paying 4 thousand dollars for the newest and bestest is about as likely as me dating Miss Dec over the next week.:(

I dont blame people who dont know any better because of the stupidifier in their living room being their only source of information on the subject. What grinds my gears is that there is a segment that belives that their opinion because of their education or position in life is the only right one and will go to any lengths to enforce it on others,and cant come up with a rational explanation for their views apart from parroting cliches and slogans.

Grizzly 45

Heckler wrote: »

Anyway this has little to do with what we are all trying to do here which is trying to stop this nonsense being proposed.

Agreed.:)

yubabill1

Wadi14 wrote: »

Guys, just checking if any of you picked up on what deputy Kenny said on the you tube clip at 1.43 on the clip, he said " I accept there is a need to tighten up the regulations" I have asked the committee chairman to explain this remark and is it the view of the committee prior to the reviews completion.

+1 on that.

Emailed Deputy Kenny immediately, with some of Spark's message pasted in.

He seems to have his finger on the pulse of Garda thinking.

He has accepted the need for amendments before hearing the submissions?