Debate on the Working Group on Review of Firearms Licensing

clivej

Tune into the Oireachtas Justice, Defence and Equality (Joint Committee) this morning from 10:30am to watch a debate on the Working Group on Review of Firearms Licensing [with Officials from the Department of Justice and Equality and Representatives from An Garda Síochána].

It can be watched at the following link:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/live-flashplayer/committeeroom2/

extremetaz

linky no worky

clivej

I'm watching it live now at

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/live-flashplayer/committeeroom2/

Sparks

That's not sounding fantastic for us at the moment...

Sparks

"Of those 200,000 firearms, about 145,000 are shotguns and about 70,000 are rifles".
Erm...

Sparks

"weapon"
Oh ffs. And now we use assault rifles in the Olympics.
/facepalm

Sparks

We shouldn't have any pistols in private ownership, period.
But if they're used for sporting purposes, that's okay.
/facepalm

Sparks

Listening to this is *fecking hard*.

Sparks

"The smith and weston .38 is an unrestricted weapon?"
GAAAAAH

Cass

He (Garda) is avoiding saying that they cannot be licensed NOW. Only those before 2008. (Handguns)

HE (Garda) says that a restricted rifle can be licensed in the morning. Funny that everyone has been refused, and had to go to court.

Sparks

And we don't care about shotguns as we're not from farms and so know nothing about them, but we're worried about rifles so lets talk about them...

Cass

Why does Alan Farrel keep on asking about uses for handguns OTHER than sporting use?

Cass

FFS - Pakistan, Dunblane,

Sparks

The garda view on keeping your pre-2008 centerfire pistol?
No answer given.


And now we're on to comparing us to Dunblane and yesterdays Taliban attack in Pakistan where 132 children were murdered.

Grizzly 45

Oh sweet jumping JAYSUS!!! Pakistan and Dunblane could happen here !!!
This is is feckin pathetic!!

Cass

Produce numbers to prove that show stolen guns were used - oh wait, he cannot. Speculation again.

Grizzly 45

Sean Kenny TD,a blithering IDIOT!!:mad:
Honest to GOD...I've never heard such ignorance and downright lies from AGS!!

Cass

Automatic guns - IOW prohibited guns.

Sparks

http://twitter.com/SeanKennyTD

Might be nice to ask him why he thinks we want to murder children.
:mad:

Cass

FFS - YOU CANNOT GET A 9MM ANYMORE. NO CENTRFIRE.

The law says only target shooting for ANY handgun. Fergus Healy. Remember that name. Cherry picking his stats and bastardising the facts.

Cass

Starting pistols classed as firearm?????????????????/

Sparks

Yup, and that makes up the three recovered stolen pistols it seems...

Sparks

Now blurring the lines between magazines and clips in shotguns, though bringing up the question of banning all shotguns where you can change the magazine and now have a capacity over three shells. And then saying the same thing about handguns.

Cass

Now we are all law breakers because we COULD make an unrestricted gun into a restricted one.

Cass

Kinda makes the whole background check, and previous history a mockery. I mean if we are capable of breaking the law why license us at all.

It's a f**king joke and people should bee getting these people's names and e-mailing them picking apart this biased, derogatory, attack.

Sparks

Oh, here we go, we have emotional attachments to our weapons now.

CJhaughey

How the hell can a right thinking person link events by extremists in Pakistan to firearm ownership here?
Oh wait..

Cass

The guns that were "surrendered" in 1972.

Y'is changed the law and made them unlicenseable otherwise we'd have our stolen property back.

Sparks

And the Chair (who thinks we have "emotional attachments to our weapons" - his words, not mine) wants us to store them with the Army because he was in the FCA.

Cass

Marion Walsh
David Stanton
Alan Farrell
Sean Kenny

And of course Garda Chief Super Fergus Healy.

Cass

Expertise my bollix.

Three admitted to knowing nothing about guns, and one was a weekend warrior.

We're f**ked.

Grizzly 45

David Stanton FG TD
.If that guy was in the FCA and handled" weapons " he must have missed out on gun handling and weapons fammilisaration 101!:mad:That was the most horrific and miserable incompetant and outright damaging bulsht meeting and group I've ever seen or heard.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Marion Walsh
David Stanton
Alan Farrell
Sean Kenny

And of course Garda Chief Super Fergus Healy.

And of course sitting beside him Sgt Paul Greene the architect of all this .

Sparks

To sean.kenny@oir.ie:

Re: Murdering Children
Dear Deputy Kenny,
I'm a licenced firearms owner, who owns two rifles and a pistol. I have used them to represent my country in Olympic target shooting and I have medalled for Ireland in a minor international match. I have been shooting for a little over twenty years now. I have personally trained about a thousand people to shoot safely. I'm a licenced international judge for target shooting. I have written one part of the current Irish Firearms Act and edited most of the rest of it. I've helped run two clubs and the national governing body for Olympic rifle shooting in Ireland.

I have never broken a law in my life. Never been in trouble with the Gardai. I've met and worked with some of the Gardai you spoke with this morning.

I also have a son who is two years and eight months old.

And I was watching you in the Dail Committee this morning, broadcast live on the internet, as were hundreds of other licenced firearms owners like myself, all of whom were, like myself, personally signed off on by Superintendents and Chief Superintendents in the Gardai as being safe to own our firearms and not a threat to the public or the peace.

I would like to know, and I'm sure the other licenced firearms owners would be interested as well, why you think that we want to murder children in Irish schools the way the Taliban just murdered 132 children in a Pakistani school yesterday.

Yours Sincerely,

clivej

It's looking grim for us from what was said and the support Chief Super Fergus Healy was getting.

They told blatant lies to the committee.... They sounded so convincing but lies always are lies

Grizzly 45

Wonder do we get a chance to address this comittee??Will be a Hell of a job to undo all that damage!

Sparks

They meet again in January so maybe.

SVI40

Anyone know where I can get a transcript of this? Alan Farrell is my local TD.

Sparks

It's not up yet (and it'll be an edited transcript like all Oireachtas transcripts) but it'll show up here in a day or three.

SVI40

Thanks Sparks.

Sparks

To david.stanton@oir.ie (the chair of the committee):

Re: Dail committee on justice and the review of firearms legislation

Dear Deputy,

I’m a licenced firearms owner, who owns two rifles and a pistol. I have used them to represent my country in Olympic target shooting and I have medalled for Ireland in a minor international match. I have been shooting for a little over twenty years now. I have personally trained about a thousand people to shoot safely. I’m a licenced international judge for target shooting. I have written one part of the current Irish Firearms Act and edited most of the rest of it. I’ve helped run two clubs and the national governing body for Olympic rifle shooting in Ireland.

I have never broken a law in my life. Never been in trouble with the Gardai. I’ve met and worked with some of the Gardai you spoke with this morning.

I also have a son who is two years and eight months old.

And I was watching the Dail Committee this morning, broadcast live on the internet, as were hundreds of other licenced firearms owners like myself, all of whom were, like myself, personally signed off on by Superintendents and Chief Superintendents in the Gardai as being safe to own our firearms and not a threat to the public or the peace.

I would like to know, and I’m sure the other licenced firearms owners would be interested as well, why, when a TD honestly asked if we would be murdering children in Irish schools the way the Taliban just murdered 132 children in a Pakistani school yesterday, he wasn't informed that:

a) We are people who have been signed off on by senior Gardai as being safe to own firearms - something the Gardai are not legally permitted to do if they believe that we would be a danger to the public or the peace;

b) We are honest, decent people who spent most of last night hugging their children a little tighter because we watched the news; not psychotic murderous deviants with an urge to visit incredible suffering on people;

c) That even asking that question was deeply offensive and defamatory to a huge number of law-abiding, tax-paying voters.

I would also appreciate it if you could ensure that before the next meeting to discuss this topic, that the TDs who will be in attendance are given a basic briefing on Irish firearms legislation as it currently stands because the questions asked today showed a complete lack of knowledge of even the rudimentary basics of that legislation.

For examples:

- we do not use assault rifles in the Olympics and they cannot be licenced in Ireland. No fully automatic firearm can be licenced anywhere in the EU as they are category A firearms and are only held by police and the army.

- the magazine in a shotgun is a fixed part, not a detachable one; changing it is not a trivial operation and doing so to give a larger magazine would void your licence leaving you breaking the Firearms Act by possession of an unlicenced restricted firearm, the penalty for which is up to seven years in prison and twenty thousand euro in fines. If proven you had this to endanger another person, that sentence goes up to life in prison and whatever fine the court cares to apply. Saying that you can just change the magazine is like saying that a driver can "just" drive down Grafton street at sixty miles an hour running down pedestrians during Christmas shopping season. It might be technically possible, but we do not lock up every person who applies for a driving licence on the basis that they might do so. Our system of laws does not punish people for possible future crimes they may commit.

If no briefing on the basics of firearms licencing has yet been provided, may I suggest this one? It's a bit basic and aimed at target shooters, but covers the basics :
http://10point9.ie/how-do-i-apply-for-a-firearms-licence/
And this final point seems minor, but language shapes thought Deputy, so I would ask that you please take heed of this point:

We do not have weapons.
We have firearms.

A weapon is something that has been used to harm a human being (as in "we discovered the weapon at the scene your Honour"). The Gardai have rather strong views on weapons, so they don't licence them and would arrest anyone looking for such a licence. The Gardai issue licences for firearms, which we use as tools for specific jobs - farmers to control vermin, target shooters for sport, vets for humane dispatch, hunters for hunting food, airport officials for scaring birds, race officals for starting races and so on. We don't have emotional connections to our tools, though we do appreciate good tools if they let us do a job better. But these are not fetishistic objects, they are just equipment to do a job. It is the job itself that we pay attention to, not the tools.

Regards,

Sparks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBQFujQ4wUQ

Sparks

Reply and response from Sean Kenny.
By email:

Hello Mark,

I don't think you want to murder children, of course I don't.

I'd also point out that I never once suggested that sporting gun owners or users would ever want to commit such an atrocity.

But that said, as a legislator on the Committee, I must consider the matter of guns being used for things other than sport.
That means I have to consider risk of atrocity. I am sorry if that offends you, as I genuinely do not intend that.

I'd further point out to you that such an atrocity is a key concern of the very Superintendents and Chief Superintendents that sign permits for weapons used by yourself and other target shooters.

As I said, I sit on the Justice Committee, I need to consider all possibilities - it's my job.

Yours sincerely,

Dear Deputy,
You may not have intended to say those words; but I was watching, live, and say them you did. You specifically asked if the Gardai were worried that an atrocity like Dunblane or the Taliban attack yesterday could happen here, while discussing licenced firearms ownership.

Sir, you might as well have asked if they were worried about a zombie attack, it would have made as much sense.

I refer you to section four of the Act, where it states that a Garda *MAY NOT* issue a certificate if he or she believes the applicant would represent a danger to the public or the peace if issued a firearms certificate. In layman's terms, the Gardai cannot legally issue a licence even if they wanted to, if they thought it might cause a problem. Even if they signed the paperwork, the licence would be null and void.

I also refer you to the point that we have been active in target shooting in Ireland since at least 1850 (according to the records in the National Botanic Garden's library) without incident or injury.
You're discussing the single safest sport in Ireland as though we were drug gang members. It's wildly inappropriate and offensive. Every last one of us has been signed off on by a senior member of the Gardai at Superintendent rank or above.

There's worrying about all possibilities Deputy, and there's worrying about being hit by lightning while being attacked by a great white shark after winning the Lotto and the Euromilllions.

Please, familiarise yourself with the existing legislation as it stands. If no basic brief has been provided to you as yet, allow me:
http://10point9.ie/how-do-i-apply-for-a-firearms-licence/

That's more intended for target shooting than other applications, but it covers the fundamentals. If even that is too much reading, please just remember this: the Gardai already have enormous powers to refuse licence applications and to revoke licences and repossess firearms if they have concerns over public safety. We already have the most draconian firearms legislation and the lowest rate of firearms ownership in the EU. And nobody gets a firearms licence in Ireland without having a good reason to have one; a safe place to use it; a secure place to store it; a raft of references from doctors and general character references; and a small host of other hoops they must jump through.

Our current firearms legislation just does not cause safety concerns in the mind of any informed occupant of the Clapham Omnibus. Comments like those made in the Committee this morning are offensive and hurtful to law-abiding decent people who do not deserve that kind of treatment.

Regards

And on twitter:

@MarkDennehy I don't think you want to murder children, Mark, of course I don't.
@MarkDennehy As a legislator on the Committee, I must consider the matter of guns being used for things other than sport.
@MarkDennehy That means I have to consider risk of atrocity. I am sorry if that offends you, as I genuinely do not intend that.
@MarkDennegy Finally, I never once said target shooters like yourself would commit an atrocity.

Sparks

Response on twitter from David Stanton:

@MarkDennehy Apologies if my terminology was not as precise as it should have been this morning. I presume you will make a submission?

(Note: anyone can make a submission, not just NGBs - you've all got something written, right?)

BattleCorp

You'd go a long way to find a more clueless bunch when it comes to firearms.

They know as much about firearms as a pig knows about a suit and tie.

Sparks

I don't mind so much that they don't know firearms - they're TDs, I don't expect them to be crack shots - but that they don't even know the basics of the existing firearms legislation (and I really do mean basics) when going into a Dail committee to discuss a new firearms act, that's unacceptable.

gunhappy_ie

Sparks wrote: »

I don't mind so much that they don't know firearms - they're TDs, I don't expect them to be crack shots - but that they don't even know the basics of the existing firearms legislation (and I really do mean basics) when going into a Dail committee to discuss a new firearms act, that's unacceptable.

Im Meeting Stanton on Monday.

ace86

anyone have a playback link we could watch it on?

Sparks

Not yet for the full thing, but Kenny's bit is in that youtube link above.

deeksofdoom

David Stanton I know that man, he was one of our officers in the FCA! and he is also one of my local TD's.

I was thinking about sending him a letter, I will be now.

homerhop

It sums up irish politics to a tee, a bunch of clowns talking through their rears about things they know sweet feck all about