Does the Gay lobby have a monopoly on discrimination?

Littlekittylou

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In fairness you make some good points a person could be a gay-black-disabled traveller. If such a person went into the public eye I think that it would be the gay community that would be far more successful in promoting the person then any other group would.

I am just wondering what are the reasons behind the gay communities success in capturing the larger public's attention in comparison to ethnic minorities and the disabled. Education? Flamboyance?

The gay community seem like they are top of the tree of the underdogs at least in regards of publicity.

The rainbow flag.

It is the symbolism of a mixed LGBT community.

It's because the gay community encompasses all other communities. So they are able to reach out to everyone. They engage with other minorities. They hold dating events for gay deal people and you will see many different races in Dublin gay clubs.

It's about 'INCLUSIVENESS'. And there are always sign interpreters for the main speeches at pride and to help anyone. They make a point of being accessible to everyone. They reach out to the traveling community.

They make an effort to reach out and accept to everyone.

It's a very powerful message and it captures the public imagination.

I have seen many gay people be strong advocates for other minorities too.


I know other minorities are under represented but that is not due to the gay community it is society as a whole that ignores them. It's nothing to do with gay people. It's a spurious connection at best. Blame Obama.

Littlekittylou

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Of course there are anti-traveller groups they just do not call their group anti-traveller. They call it a residents association. Who are concerned that a group of travellers that moved in beside them.
http://www.iol.ie/~fcrg/

I am sure there are some people in Ireland who love to abort a disabled child if it was detected soon enough.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/late-abortions-for-27-irish-women-on-disability-grounds-29057908.html There is no need for a group to be created to cause this.

Why are you bringing in every other topic to this. You seem to have a lot of other agendas. This is not a thread on abortion.

gormdubhgorm

Littlekittylou wrote: »

Why are you bringing in every other topic to this. You seem to have a lot of other agendas. This is not a thread on abortion.

I merely responded to the fact that it was put to me that there was no anti-disabled or anti-traveller groups while there are anti-gay groups.
It can clearly be argued (depending on your viewpoint) that such actions in the articles could be anti-disabled or anti-traveller without the need for "anti-groups".

Benny_Cake

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Of course there are anti-traveller groups they just do not call their group anti-traveller. They call it a residents association. Who are concerned that a group of travellers that moved in beside them.
http://www.iol.ie/~fcrg/

Strange example - Foxborough Concerned Residents appear to have been inactive for the last 11 and a half years, anyway. Although bigotry against travellers is an issue, certainly.

I think it's great that you're concerned about the rights of travellers, other ethnic minorities and the disabled. Guess what? Compassion and empathy aren't finite resources! Having a concern for one type of discrimination doesn't mean that you aren't concerned with other types. No need to take anything away from LGBT folks - for whom things have improved beyond all recognition in the last 20 years, but who still encounter many problems that the rest of us don't have to worry about.

shruikan2553

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Of course there are anti-traveller groups they just do not call their group anti-traveller. They call it a residents association. Who are concerned that a group of travellers that moved in beside them.
http://www.iol.ie/~fcrg/

I am sure there are some people in Ireland who love to abort a disabled child if it was detected soon enough.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/late-abortions-for-27-irish-women-on-disability-grounds-29057908.html There is no need for a group to be created to cause this.

I would look at that website but my I value my eyesight. I dont think anyone would "love" an abortion and trying to use that as an example just makes you look worse.

Currently when people wish to talk about LGBT people getting equality they must have an opposing viewpoint. Why are Pavee point and groups supporting disabled people allowed to talk without opposition?

RDM_83 again

lolosaur wrote: »

Sure i dont mind what the gays do as long as they do it in private. and nowhere near me. so as long as i dont see or hear them, it's ok. except in the eyes of god though, then its very wrong.

This country has not grown up at all. it's just easier to ignore things these days.

Hope I am not picking you up wrong but how am I saying about keeping it hidden? My point is that its not ever cool to give people abuse over their characteristics, you shouldn't yell "show us your tits" at a busty women, you shouldn't say to the overweight guy "who ate all the pies" you shouldn't throw bottles at someone cos they are dressed as a goth and you shouldn't give a same sex couple sh^t because they dare to hold hands or have a kiss in front of you. Attacking somebody verbally or physically over their appearance or characteristics when it has literally no impact on you is the behavior of dirtbags.

By the way I used Lifestyle Choice to refer to the other things I was talking about I don't consider homosexuality to be a choice (and there is enough scientific evidence to back up that view)

floggg

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am disappointed how this thread has gone.
It is not do with the various issues any minority group may have it is whether one minority group has a disproportionate voice to the rest. Also whether this group may be a monopolising voice as result of this disproportionate voice.

The 2006 census in the Republic of Ireland reported the number of Irish Travellers as 22,369.
http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=75490

From the CSO website Persons, males and females, at work aged 15 years and over with a disability classified by age group and percentage disabled, 2011. is 112,502
http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/health/personsmalesandfemalesatworkaged15yearsandoverwithadisabilityclassifiedbyagegroupandpercentagedisabled2011/

2006
A study of the responses of 7,441 individuals, conducted by the ESRI, found that 2.7% of men and 1.2% of women self-identified as homosexual or bisexual.
http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20061016131112/BKMNEXT084_Main%20Report.pdf
If the above extrapolated this equates to roughly 150000 who identify as gay. I could not find any definitive figure.


Based on these figures what do people think?

Again, what are you doing to give these other groups a louder voice?

Because if you feel one or more disadvantaged groups are under represented, then the solution is to increase their representation - not to try and reduce another groups representation to keep things balanced.

Everybody loses that way.

Assuming of course you're not just hoping to see those pesky gays knocked down a peg or two?

floggg

UCDVet wrote: »

I'm not implying YOU chose to be gay; but a lot of people do chose to self-identify with subcultures. For a lot of reasons.

Like face tattoos. If you get a face tattoo, you will face discrimination and judgement; but people choose to get them.

When I was young, the trendy thing for social outcasts to do was to embrace it and go 'goth'. I can't claim to understand it, but there were quite a few goth kids at my school - they intentionally chose to dress in a way that would bring them discrimination and judgement.

Anyway, for what it's worth; I think being gay does have some perks. If I could picked, I'd have picked to be gay. On paper, it makes more sense to me. I don't want children - and a lot of women do. With a gay man, I wouldn't have to worry about accidental pregnancies and it would be a lot easier to find a gay man who doesn't want children than a straight woman.

Gay men (on average) also have more sexual partners than any other orientation/sex. Now that I'm old and married, I don't care about that stuff. But as a 16 year old boy, if you gave me a choice between going to a party loaded with slutty girls who have sex with lots of people, and a party loaded with puritanical girls who don't have sex with anyone - I'd rather be in the party with the sex.

Plus, I was always told gay men were in better shape, better dressed, and better dancers than straight guys. That doesn't sound so bad to me.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that people can or do choose their orientation. But if it were (or if it is) a choice, I'm certain some people would choose it.

Respectfully, that is a very naive, ill-informed and over-simplified view point.

floggg

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Of course there are anti-traveller groups they just do not call their group anti-traveller. They call it a residents association. Who are concerned that a group of travellers that moved in beside them.
http://www.iol.ie/~fcrg/

I am sure there are some people in Ireland who love to abort a disabled child if it was detected soon enough.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/late-abortions-for-27-irish-women-on-disability-grounds-29057908.html There is no need for a group to be created to cause this.

Neither example is really comparable to the discrimination gay people face.

NIMBYs oppose halting sites in their locality. They don't however oppose travellers rights to live in halting sites generally, nor do they call for patent state discrimination against travellers, oppose family rights for travellers, freely make racist statements against them and tell them they will burn in hell for all eternity. It was also wasn't illegal to be a traveller until the early 1990s.

And somebody who would abort a baby suffering from a disability doesn't want to see all disabled people killed (as some people do with gay people). In fact I'm sure most have a great deal of compassion for disability and would love to see better funds, support and integration.

They just personally don't want to be responsible for raising a child with a disability.

Daith

UCDVet wrote: »

Plus, I was always told gay men were in better shape, better dressed, and better dancers than straight guys. That doesn't sound so bad to me.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that people can or do choose their orientation. But if it were (or if it is) a choice, I'm certain some people would choose it.

Straight guys can choose to get in better shape, dress better and learn how to dance! They don't have to shag men!

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is the disproportionate volume that one group gets over another that annoys me. A monopoly on playing the oppressed victim.

Don't worry. When they Gay Agenda takes over Ireland we won't get uppity when the straights complain they're being victimized.

gormdubhgorm

From the replies I have finally figured it out why the Gay community is much more organised and better at "marketing" itself then other minority groups I have mentioned.

1) More United - The LGBT cimmunity is united under one flag unlike the disparate groups other minority groups have. This leads to less in fighting and a common goal.

2) Wider interaction - then travellers or disabled people have with mainstream society. Also people that are non-Irish may find it difficult to break into Irish culture like the GAA and the pub scene.

3) Strong Media presence - The LGBT have a strong media presence in the national media compared to other minority groups. Therefore the agenda can be heard a lot louder and clearer then other minority groups have.

4) Better Education - a lot of the LGBT community are highly educated and motivated and can clearly yet forcefully get their message across. Other minority groups are not so fortunate.

5) Flamboyance - members of the LGBT know how to put on a show and get noticed more so then the other minority groups do not seem to have this knack.

floggg

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

5) Flamboyance - members of the LGBT know how to put on a show and get noticed more so then the other minority groups do not seem to have this knack.

So much stupid in one paragraph.

Links234

Ouch! My braincells!

Annasopra

floggg wrote: »

Respectfully, that is a very naive, ill-informed and over-simplified view point.

I agree. Perhaps you could explain why that is Floggg?

The_Captain

Rory O'Neill is clearly very good at playing the media game.

Personally I don't think he's done anything besides promote himself as Spokesman For All Gays of Ireland

Wez

floggg wrote: »

So much stupid in one paragraph.

Oh I'm sorry, you're dead right.

They know nothing about flamboyance.. They're just your regular blokes.

Those one line answers don't help people to understand your perspective, it's like the feminazi Tumblr responses. Explaining why you don't believe LBGT are more flamboyant than disabled people or travellers, would help the conversation to progress.

All you're doing is driving a wedge between people looking to know more, and those that are "victims of this curse" (as ye seem to suggest it is, since it's not a choice).

Annasopra

The_Captain wrote: »

Rory O'Neill is clearly very good at playing the media game.

Personally I don't think he's done anything besides promote himself as Spokesman For All Gays of Ireland

I dont remember him claiming that title.

Annasopra

Wez wrote: »

Oh I'm sorry, you're dead right.

They know nothing about flamboyance.. They're just your regular blokes.

Those one line answers don't help people to understand your perspective, it's like the feminazi Tumblr responses. Explaining why you don't believe LBGT are more flamboyant than disabled people or travellers, would help the conversation to progress.

All you're doing is driving a wedge between people looking to know more, and those that are "victims of this curse" (as ye seem to suggest it is, since it's not a choice).

You have an overall good point but resorting to aggressive language such as feminazi and picking a media stereotypical image doesnt actually do your point any justice.

You are slagging off 1 line answers with a dismissive and aggressive 3 line answer. Honestly I cant take you seriously because theres a deep irony in asking for more discussion and then dismissing us with images and aggressive rhetoric.

Daith

The_Captain wrote: »

Rory O'Neill is clearly very good at playing the media game.

Possibly but he made the most of it when the Iona Institute and John Waters decided to sue.

They made him and clearly he's quite intelligent in being able to turn what happened into something else.

The_Captain wrote: »

Personally I don't think he's done anything besides promote himself as Spokesman For All Gays of Ireland

Which he never has and even in his speech he commented on the work that others have done before him.

gormdubhgorm

floggg wrote: »

So much stupid in one paragraph.

Would you care to elaborate?

Although in fairness I possibly could have phrased it better. And termed it "positive flamboyance".

The only "traveller flamboyance" that is repeatedly publicized for the travellers is "my big fat gypsy wedding" which is set up to make light of the traveller in reality.

The only events for disabled I can think of is the special Olympics /para-olympics.

Cultural events for other ethic minorities seem to gather limited mainsteam attention.

cloudatlas

It pisses me off that you are playing other minority groups off each other that's not the point and it's a reductive argument, instead of asking why panti and not others you should be asking why give panti an award at all and look into some of the history and background that has lead to us having a referendum. It's not just shouting abuse at someone at traffic lights it's far more insidious and ingrained in society than that in the work place, schools, in the street, in the media. I get bored of the lazy 'why do they have to go on about being gay so much' well then change the channel, turn the page but the fact is that straight life is so ingrained and accepted that you don't bat an eye lid when that is mentioned in any shape or form. That speech was very powerful and got 675,097 views on youtube so clearly some people are interested and some people do want things to change and that should be praised.

If you know of anyone in any other community that you thinks deserved the award then I would invite you to name them on this thread.

Wez

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You have an overall good point but resorting to aggressive language such as feminazi and picking a media stereotypical image doesnt actually do your point any justice.

Please excuse my language (I didn't intend for it to be taken as aggressive), but you understand the rough point I'm trying to make. You say you're not flamboyant (and that it's "stupid" to think so), yet I've never seen someone in a wheelchair dressed like those lads when trying to get their point across.

BTW: I literally Googled "dublin LBGT" and that was the first image, followed by plenty more.

Annasopra

Wez wrote: »

Please excuse my language (I didn't intend for it to be taken as aggressive), but you understand the rough point I'm trying to make. You say you're not flamboyant (and that it's "stupid" to think so), yet I've never seen someone in a wheelchair dressed like those lads when trying to get their point across.

BTW: I literally Googled "dublin LBGT" and that was the first image, followed by plenty more.

No. I have no idea what point you are trying to make at all.

You are asking for more discussion on the issue but then you have already decided there is no point in the discussion because we are wrong and you are right. You're saying you want us to explain something but then even before we get a chance you are dismisding the discusssion.

Daith

Wez wrote: »

BTW: I literally Googled "dublin LBGT" and that was the first image, followed by plenty more.

Yes that's taken from a parade.

This is of course what Irish people look and dress like

http://www.absolutelimos.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/xl-p-753-dublin-st-patricks-parade-smaller1.png

Wez wrote: »

yet I've never seen someone in a wheelchair dressed like those lads when trying to get their point across.

This is an actual march in trying to get their point across. Look at all that flamboyance.

http://www.amachlgbt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/338185_10151119996838395_1917970187_o.jpg

Wez

I wasn't being dismissive, you made a point and I countered it with an image from Wikipedia. If you take offence at that image, maybe you should spread the word in your community about how people compose themselves when representing your community.

Say what you want, I was honestly curious about some points you were making and wanted to discuss it more. All that I receive in reply are pop shots and having my posts reported.

I'll just ask my personal gay friends for their opinion on the situation.

Have a nice day.

Daith

Wez wrote: »

I'll just ask my personal gay friends for their opinion on the situation.

You'll have to send us on their names. We'll need to double check if they've paid their yearly membership to the Gay Agenda and if they're allow to make comments.

Wez

Daith wrote: »

You'll have to send us on their names. We'll need to double check if they've paid their yearly membership to the Gay Agenda and if they're allow to make comments.

Sure man : Mr. Ben Dover, Mr. Harry Cox and Mr. Homer Sexual.

Daith

Wez wrote: »

Sure man : Mr. Ben Dover, Mr. Harry Cox and Mr. Homer Sexual.

Ah so not Bruce and Lance or maybe Julian?

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

4) Better Education - a lot of the LGBT community are highly educated and motivated and can clearly yet forcefully get their message across. Other minority groups are not so fortunate..

I see your point.

Annasopra

Wez wrote: »

I wasn't being dismissive, you made a point and I countered it with an image from Wikipedia. If you take offence at that image, maybe you should spread the word in your community about how people compose themselves when representing your community.

Say what you want, I was honestly curious about some points you were making and wanted to discuss it more. All that I receive in reply are pop shots and having my posts reported.

I'll just ask my personal gay friends for their opinion on the situation.

Have a nice day.

If you want a genuine discussion fair enough. I didnt get a sense that you actually did with the dismissiveness of images and "feminazi" terminology. Even now you are continuing that dismissiveness in a passive agressive way by deciding that your friends can answer instead.

I have no idea why you are going on about your posts being reported.

DeadHand

As a flamboyent, black, gay, disabled traveller with a learning disability* I'm flummoxed by this thread.

Looking forward to a day when we mature as a society enough to generally see a person's sexuality for what it is- an irrelevance.

There are cretins on both sides here, there are those of the perpetually outraged within the LGBT community with a massive appetite for victimhood just as there as those without who hate that community simply for the crime of being who they are.

Neither contribute anything positive to the debate.

Sometimes, an element of "us and them" creeps into these discussions. It's nonsense when we consider the fact that we all live among, work and socialise with gay people and are probably close to at least one whether or not we are aware of it.

There's no "them", it's all us.





*Probably isn't true.