Countering religious extremism in Ireland

Zebra3

RTÉ and the rest of the mainstream media seem delighted that a bunch of religious extremists have vandalised Carrauntoohill by placing a divisive religious symbol on top of it.

Why are the guards not moving against these vandals who were openly breaking the law on tv yesterday? Are the local council going to do anything?

Why do some Christians think they have the right to conquer public space with their propaganda?

RobYourBuilder

The Cross was sited on private land.

Why are the guards not moving against these vandals who were openly breaking the law on tv yesterday? 

They had the land owners permission to reinstate the Cross.

Are the local council going to do anything?

No, why would they?

longshanks

Question asked. Question answered. Lock it up.

keeponhurling

My blood is boiling with anger at the thought of people having different religious beliefs than the OP

Mr. Incognito

I see no difference between militant atheists and religious fundamentalists.

Its humans nature to declare " their" label / belief the only one and belittle /scorn / mock attack anyone with a different opinion be that religion, music, politics, economic ideas.

We are a petty violent race. Even your opening post is a sneer advocating your own view and welcoming people to agree or disagree.

Personally, who gives a monkeys.

RobertKK

Zebra3 wrote: »

RTÉ and the rest of the mainstream media seem delighted that a bunch of religious extremists have vandalised Carrauntoohill by placing a divisive religious symbol on top of it.

Why are the guards not moving against these vandals who were openly breaking the law on tv yesterday? Are the local council going to do anything?

Why do some Christians think they have the right to conquer public space with their propaganda?

lol, it was not religious extremism.

The only people with a problem are those who view a cross as a problem.

The Gardai were involved and investigated the site as a crime scene when the cross was cut down.

The only extremism is from people who see a cross as being a form of religious extremism.
Must be terrible going around the country, into town and cities where you see crosses on some buildings, maybe where somebody died on the side of the road, graveyards must be highly offensive.

The land on the mountain is privately owned and the owners gave the go-ahead for the cross to be put back up, everyone from that area wanted it back up.

It is ridiculous how a cross offends some people.

bodice ripper

Ireland's most elderly graffiti taggers go 3d...

corner of hells

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I see no difference between militant atheists and religious fundamentalists.

Its humans nature to declare " their" label / belief the only one and belittle /scorn / mock attack anyone with a different opinion be that religion, music, politics, economic ideas.

We are a petty violent race. Even your opening post is a sneer advocating your own view and welcoming people to agree or disagree.

Personally, who gives a monkeys.

What type of monkey would you like ? It just so happens I have a spider monkey and a squirrel monkey for sale , both should make excellent Christmas presents for the loved one in your life.

Riamfada

Zebra3 wrote: »

RTÉ and the rest of the mainstream media seem delighted that a bunch of religious extremists have vandalised Carrauntoohill by placing a divisive religious symbol on top of it.

Why are the guards not moving against these vandals who were openly breaking the law on tv yesterday? Are the local council going to do anything?

Why do some Christians think they have the right to conquer public space with their propaganda?

This is hilarious. And obviously quite trollish and ignorant.

Red Pepper

Zebra3 wrote: »

RTÉ and the rest of the mainstream media seem delighted that a bunch of religious extremists have vandalised Carrauntoohill by placing a divisive religious symbol on top of it.

Why are the guards not moving against these vandals who were openly breaking the law on tv yesterday? Are the local council going to do anything?

Why do some Christians think they have the right to conquer public space with their propaganda?

Explain and prove the bit in bold Mr Zebra by the time the Angelus rings.

Bubbaclaus

Living in a country that is becoming more diverse all the time I do find it a bit concerning as to why we need a crucifix up there. Would people have an issue if Jewish, Muslim or other religious symbolism was also put up there?

It's the tallest mountain in Ireland. Having a symbol that only represents a certain demographic on top of it doesn't sit easy with me.

RobertKK

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Living in a country that is becoming more diverse all the time I do find it a bit concerning as to why we need a crucifix up there. Would people have an issue if Jewish, Muslim or other religious symbolism was also put up there?

It's the tallest mountain in Ireland. Having a symbol that only represents a certain demographic on top of it doesn't sit easy with me.

It is private property, you can erect those on your own property if you wish.

These particular owners are happy to have a cross on their property. We shouldn't be telling people what religious symbols they can or can't have on private property.

I suspect planning permission was not needed due to the height not being over regulations for a feature.
A person can put up a wind turbine on their property without planning permission if it is under a certain height.

Bubbaclaus

RobertKK wrote: »

It is private property, you can erect those on your own property if you wish.

These particular owners are happy to have a cross on their property. We shouldn't be telling people what religious symbols they can or can't have on private property.

I suspect planning permission was not needed due to the height not being over regulations for a feature.
A person can put up a wind turbine on their property without planning permission if it is under a certain height.

Private property or not it is still a national landmark and it doesn't seem right to have a big symbol right at the top of it only representing a certain demographic.

Just my opinion.

Tail Docker

It makes people cross, but I think they're marking a mountain out of an oldhill.

MRnotlob606

All religions are wrong and I am definitely right about everything.Militant atheist worldview.

keithclancy

Atheists can be as bad as Religious types.

Forcing a belief of non belief on others is just as bad as the opposite.

I'm in the camp of believing whatever i choose to believe (and not pushing it on others) up until the point that it conflicts with other beliefs/religions on the basic fair treatment of human beings.

E.G.
Education for women
The choice of joining a religion when you are old enough to do so and not when you are a child
The right to live and have children with someone without the need to have some sort of religious contract.
The right for women to wear whatever without being deemed dirty or evil.

For me that thing was just a metal cross that some men put on a hill many years ago.

It wasn't a Swastica or something

MRnotlob606

Just leave the cross there !Christ it never caused any offence.

Riamfada

Those who call for it to be taken down are religious extremists, they just dont see it.

fran17

I'm just home from mass and I noticed that those bloody extremists put one of those symbols on the building and also on three other buildings on my drive home!

looksee

I would consider myself to be more atheist than anything else, and I do not have a great deal of time for religion. I can't get worked up about this cross though. It was put up when attitudes were rather different, and individuals do not have a right to vandalise anything. It has to be replaced or the vandals have won. What next, celtic crosses all around the country? They are all part of the history and culture of the country. There are also neolithic graves carefully preserved, do we pull them down as well?

If I were asked to vote on a new religious symbol being placed in a public area I would probably vote against, but this is different, it is vandalism by a few who feel entitled to inflict their opinions on everyone else.

Firefox11

What ever happened to that fella that used to carry a cross around the country which had a handy wheel on the end. I don't see him around any more.

Tail Docker

Firefox11 wrote: »

What ever happened to that fella that used to carry a cross around the country which had a handy wheel on the end. I don't see him around any more.

His feet were crucifying him, he had to stop.

Red Pepper

keithclancy wrote: »

It wasn't a Swastica or something

I thought the swastika was a cross of some sort.

hfallada

After a while religious symbols are no longer just religious symbols but an icon of an area. Like the statue of Jesus in Rio de Janeiro in Brazil. With Brazil no longer being that Catholic, should the Jesus statue be removed? No as its the icon of the city.

Atheist removing these symbols are just taking their intolerance of religion to another level. Im not religious but Im not going to loss sleep over a cross at the top of a mountain. For a intercultural society, people need to be tolerant of each other. As secularism has failed in places like France. Where as in Catholic Quebec, the region didnt dilute its culture to integrate its immigrants. It remained Catholic and French speaking. It thought its heritage to newly arrived immigrants and as a result, its multicultural society has fewer issues than secular countries like France

Cantremember

It's on private land, doesn't seem to require planning permission and is completely silly. I hope a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a Sikh, a Zoroastrian, a Buddhist, a Mormon, a Scientologist, a devotee of the spaghetti monster all buy land on Kerry mountains, maybe even Carantuhil. And they all put up giant symbols of their beliefs. The crowning glory would be a fertility cult with symbols of human genitalia. It could be a new theme park for Kerry, sales of Flat caps could soar and it would be an Irish Disneyland.

diomed

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why do some Christians think they have the right to conquer public space with their propaganda?

I think Ireland is different from the USA. All land in Ireland is owned, most privately, while in the USA a high percentage is government owned "public lands".
Don't go gold prospecting in Ireland.

keithclancy

Red Pepper wrote: »

I thought the swastika was a cross of some sort.

No, your thinking of the Swastika that's the other way around used in Hinduism/Buddhism.

Usually has a dot in each square.

shruikan2553

I think it is weird to put a religious symbol at the top of the highest mountain in the country but I struggle to care too much. Put a McDonalds up there for all I care.

stimpson

I love the way people assume atheists did this. It could have just as easily been the People's Front of Judea.

All things considered, how do we not know that it wasn't gods will that it be cut down. Personally speaking, if I was God and people were putting up representations of the murder weapon used to kill my son I'd be pretty pissed off. I'd be smiting those people like there was no tomorrow. Think Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Ficton.

Cantremember

stimpson wrote: »

I love the way people assume atheists did this. It could have just as easily been the People's Front of Judea.

All things considered, how do we not know that it wasn't gods will that it be cut down. Personally speaking, if I was God and people were putting up representations of the murder weapon used to kill my son I'd be pretty pissed off. I'd be smiting those people like there was no tomorrow. Think Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Ficton.

But you're forgetting that he willed his son dead as an atonement sacrifice to himself to make up for all the bad people. He'd better start smiting himself. POW! KerPLLAAAAT!

shruikan2553

stimpson wrote: »

I love the way people assume atheists did this. It could have just as easily been the People's Front of Judea.

All things considered, how do we not know that it wasn't gods will that it be cut down. Personally speaking, if I was God and people were putting up representations of the murder weapon used to kill my son I'd be pretty pissed off. I'd be smiting those people like there was no tomorrow. Think Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Ficton.

The atheists are big into religious violence, just look at the north! I'm just confused on if I am meant to be a rebellious teenager living at home or if I'm a big strong guy carrying powertools up the highest mountain in the country.

Annasopra

shruikan2553 wrote: »

The atheists are big into religious violence, just look at the north!

What does that mean?

shruikan2553

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What does that mean?

It was a sarcastic comment about how atheists are big into extremism and violence when I'm sure most people living in this country know that the Christians do a great job of it to each other already

Riamfada

shruikan2553 wrote: »

atheists are big into extremism and violence

Are they really?

Son Of A Vidic

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I see no difference between militant atheists and religious fundamentalists.

I agree, there is no difference. Both try to force their views down our throats and make grandiose pronunciations of how right they are. The world would be a safer and happier place if they would just fúck off and leave us all in peace.

Paco Rodriguez

How did all the atheists cope for all the amount of years that cross was up there? Why is this debate only happening now?
It's not like there is an atheist convention held on top of that mountain every year, and ye having to look at it all the time!

Calibos

Could just as easily have been some poor fellow who lost his wife and child in a car crash, doesn't approve of gods 'plan' for his family, still believes in god but now hates him, and is reminded of Gods 'plan' every time he looked out his kitchen window at the cross and decided to take an angle grinder to it. Atheists are the least likely to do something like this.

It's taken courthouse walls in the US being covered in symbols of Judaism, Islam, spaghetti monster and satanism etc for the Christians to finally cop onto the fact that if their symbols and 10 commandments are to be allowed on the courthouse wall, then they need to allow the satanists etc to put up theirs too. Invariably it's only then they quietly acquiesce to having theirs removed in order that they don't have to look at the satanists.

padd b1975

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

How did all the atheists cope for all the amount of years that cross was up there? Why is this debate only happening now?
It's not like there is an atheist convention held on top of that mountain every year, and ye having to look at it all the time!

Most of them probably weren't aware of it's existence up to a few weeks back.

Cantremember

padd b1975 wrote: »

Most of them probably weren't aware of it's existence up to a few weeks back.

Lol. There are none of them atheists in Kerry. None of them type climb mountains.

The Diabolical Monocle

3.1 - And yay the non-god botherers did become more of a pestilence upon my harvest than the god botherer of days past.

AlekSmart

Cantremember wrote: »

It's on private land, doesn't seem to require planning permission and is completely silly. I hope a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a Sikh, a Zoroastrian, a Buddhist, a Mormon, a Scientologist, a devotee of the spaghetti monster all buy land on Kerry mountains, maybe even Carantuhil. And they all put up giant symbols of their beliefs. The crowning glory would be a fertility cult with symbols of human genitalia. It could be a new theme park for Kerry, sales of Flat caps could soar and it would be an Irish Disneyland.

How about a giant Zebra ?...like the cows that appeared around the place a few years back..

Zebra's are cool,cos everything in Zebraville is black'n white...just like in the real world....('cept perhaps the Kingdom ?)

Paramite Pie

looksee wrote: »

It has to be replaced or the vandals have won.

I agree. I'm completely non-religious and I wouldn't normally advocate putting a religious symbol on a mountaintop but the principle of not letting the vandals win is far more important than my opposition to the cross itself. We can't establish a precedence of mob rule.

Paco Rodriguez

padd b1975 wrote: »

Most of them probably weren't aware of it's existence up to a few weeks back.

That's my point. So why get all worked up about it? If you think someone is in the wrong and are oblivious/ don't want to change/ or are not in the wrong, just let them. They're not climbing the mountain anyway. Why stress over something that isn't relevant to their immediate lives?

padd b1975

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

That's my point. So why get all worked up about it? If you think someone is in the wrong and are oblivious/ don't want to change/ or are not in the wrong, just let them. They're not climbing the mountain anyway. Why stress over something that isn't relevant to their immediate lives?

It's the Liveline caller syndrome.

"Joe I haven't read the article/watched the programme, but it's a disgrace whatever it is".:rolleyes:

Badly Drunk Boy

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Private property or not it is still a national landmark and it doesn't seem right to have a big symbol right at the top of it only representing a certain demographic.

Just my opinion.

I don't think people really saw it as a religious symbol. I've seen interviews with people who have climbed Carrauntoohil, and they were saying that seeing the landmark of the cross gave them a spur, showing that they were nearly there.

stimpson wrote: »

I love the way people assume atheists did this. It could have just as easily been the People's Front of Judea.

All things considered, how do we not know that it wasn't gods will that it be cut down. Personally speaking, if I was God and people were putting up representations of the murder weapon used to kill my son I'd be pretty pissed off. I'd be smiting those people like there was no tomorrow. Think Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Ficton.

The group Atheist Ireland practically admitted to doing. They just didn't admit it for definite, being the cowards they are.

I'm an atheist, by the way.

bodice ripper

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

I don't think people really saw it as a religious symbol. I've seen interviews with people who have climbed Carrauntoohil, and they were saying that seeing the landmark of the cross gave them a spur, showing that they were nearly there.



The group Atheist Ireland practically admitted to doing. They just didn't admit it for definite, being the cowards they are.

I'm an atheist, by the way.

source?

stimpson

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

The group Atheist Ireland practically admitted to doing. They just didn't admit it for definite, being the cowards they are.

Let's sacrifice them to our God!!!!


Cmon - we did it all the time in the thirties.

fitzy24

im big an mussel'y and can cut down anything
big hill no bother ;
cobwebs on the cave
no bother
clear dem right away
no bother
im; the angel grinder man

catallus

Does anyone actually know if there is/was any planning permission for the structure to be erected?

Any lawyer types know that if it were dismantled would such permission need to be re-applied for before it was resurrected, as it were?

Grayson

hfallada wrote: »

After a while religious symbols are no longer just religious symbols but an icon of an area. Like the statue of Jesus in Rio de Janeiro in Brazil. With Brazil no longer being that Catholic, should the Jesus statue be removed? No as its the icon of the city.

Atheist removing these symbols are just taking their intolerance of religion to another level. Im not religious but Im not going to loss sleep over a cross at the top of a mountain. For a intercultural society, people need to be tolerant of each other. As secularism has failed in places like France. Where as in Catholic Quebec, the region didnt dilute its culture to integrate its immigrants. It remained Catholic and French speaking. It thought its heritage to newly arrived immigrants and as a result, its multicultural society has fewer issues than secular countries like France

Secularism failed in France? Has anyone told the French that they can start wearing burkas and put the religious crap back up on the walls in schools.

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

I don't think people really saw it as a religious symbol. I've seen interviews with people who have climbed Carrauntoohil, and they were saying that seeing the landmark of the cross gave them a spur, showing that they were nearly there.

I don't think that means anything. Just because people said they recognised it doesn't mean it's not a religious symbol. I could put a 50ft giant day glo yellow cock in my front yard. Just because people can use it to determine their proximity to the cock, doesn't make it any less a cock.

bodice ripper

The plot thickens


http://www.newstalk.com/Footage-of-Carrauntoohil-cross-being-cut-is-released

Footage of the Carrauntoohil cross being felled has been released to the media and is now being examined by gardaí.

A video of the incident was sent to TheJournal.ie earlier today and shows an unidentified individual cutting the cross at the base with an angle grinder. The cross is seen falling later in the video.

The Journal reports that the footage was passed on to detectives in Kilorglin who said it a “new development” in the investigation.