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Not a member of union for Tuesday's Strike! (Thread Re-opened)

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    #32
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    spurious wrote: »
    They can't be given that under Data Protection stuff.

    Does payroll not have it anyway? I assume it's them who will be checking who presented for work to determine who loses a day' s pay, so they will see who was not present and not in union either.


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    #33
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    spurious wrote: »
    When I was teaching, it was none of management's business who was or wasn't in the union. They may have had their suspicions (or even known for sure) that some people were non-union, but we never enlightened them either way (and they never indicated officially that they knew or suspected).
    Has this changed now?

    A few ways... (And this isn't a management bashing thing it has to be said, as I know my principal doesn't really give a fig either way but if you come forward then that's your own lookout!)

    1. School asks all non-union members to attend a briefing about the strike. You're not obliged to go BTW as the management in a school can't act as both a union member (if they are union members) and your boss at the same time. I know a few in our school are saying nothing to no-one...

    2. .. although in saying that the roster is posted on the notice board in school so it's obvious enough who's not in the union !( although you could be actually in the union but away for a doctors appointment/wedding or something on the Tuesday too!)

    3. With the advent of E-mails .. usually all union members are sent updates via email .... baring in mind the Principal/VP are union members, then they can see from the mailing list who is or isn't in the union!


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    #34
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,402 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    To clarify a few points
    1) other unions seemingly have informed their members to attend work as normal because its not a congress "all out" type of strike hence caretakers, secretarial staff, SNAs etc all turn up for work as usual (in theory)
    2) our non union teachers who tried to join were told so many mixed messages. They couldn't get a straight answer about if they were members or not


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    #35
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    TheDriver wrote: »
    To clarify a few points
    1) other unions seemingly have informed their members to attend work as normal because its not a congress "all out" type of strike hence caretakers, secretarial staff, SNAs etc all turn up for work as usual (in theory)
    2) our non union teachers who tried to join were told so many mixed messages. They couldn't get a straight answer about if they were members or not

    Ya I think you still have to go through the ratification process (at a district meeting) before becoming a 'full member'. So they are probably being cagey in case you might decide not to bother as it might be too late. I'd say the unions will definitely see an uptake in their membership as we've had 3 teachers in our school join last week! I don;t think they would have bothered if a strike wasn;t on the cards.


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    #36
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    What did non union members do? We had four who passed the picket at school start time this morning, and left about half an hour before school finishing time. Waving to the picket as they left. Have to say it made me pretty mad, even though it can't be an easy decision to make. What did others do?


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    #37
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Moody_mona wrote: »
    What did non union members do? We had four who passed the picket at school start time this morning, and left about half an hour before school finishing time. Waving to the picket as they left. Have to say it made me pretty mad, even though it can't be an easy decision to make. What did others do?

    Our school was closed. So no non union/ non teaching staff were in. Our ETB instructed the closure.


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    #38
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    School was shut but NUM's were told that if they want to be paid then write the letter to say they are available!
    if they want to not be paid then dont write the letter.
    Quite surprised at how many weren't in the union actually.


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    #39
    flandabieduzie
    Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭flandabieduzie


    Joined a union and was on the picket line. School was open. Admin and caretakers had to attend.


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    #40
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    flandabieduzie wrote: »
    Joined a union and was on the picket line. School was open. Admin and caretakers had to attend.

    Fairplay

    Now you may officially have a moan about the union (and how 'downhill' it's gone since you joined):pac:


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    #41
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    next strike day is Thursday jan 22nd although I've a feeling that may well be postponed


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    #42
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Heard a bit of an interview on radio yesterday lunchtime with ASTI guy .While he denied it at the end it was like to me a turning point had been reached.Theyre going to cave on this ( latest !) 'line in the sand' issue for a few bob being thrown by the government whether to 'resourcing' , teachers or whomever ....(!?) At this stage it's pathetic how much RTE are the government propaganda division much of the time ( guess it depends on individual show editor )
    Will be surprised if Jan 22 happens and almost certain it will be the end of their 'optical' ' resistance' .Sure they (Head Office) don't even lose the day's pay that their hapless members do
    .

    PRESENTER "In essence you're still against the notion of this self assessment system working within the schools aren't you ?"

    MR IRWIN " We are , however...."

    On hearing that word 'however' any doubts I had about leaving union evaporated.They went on to discuss 'lack of capacity of schools after several years of cutbacks ' and in a most unusual red herring Mr Irwin referenced the casualisation of profession ( as if it's anything to do with JC reform) .HRA 2 IF it was introduced 'fair and square' was definitely rammed through on the latter . Expect them to cave on this for a few new laptops in schools , a few more CIDs and whatever Quango / 'Advisory' group seats are going ...( just like they've caved on EVERYTHING .' Give and take ' / 'meet in the middle ' indeed !!!!????To list all we've lost you would be at over the dozen mark , union has facilitated the disassembly of our pay and conditions and now we will be sold talk of 'pay rises' .It would take a hell of a pay rise to counter what they've cost us in last 12 months alone and as for the poor unfortunate NQTs ....


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    #43
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    2011abc wrote: »
    Heard a bit of an interview on radio yesterday with ASTI guy .While he denied it at the end it was like to me a turning point had been reached.Theyre going to cave on this ( latest !) 'line in the sand' issue for a few bob being thrown by the government whether to 'resourcing' , teachers or whomever ....At this stage it's pathetic how much RTE are the government propaganda division much of the time ( guess it depends on individual show editor )
    Will be surprised if Jan 22 happens and almost certain it will be the end of their 'optical' ' resistance' .Sure they (Head Office) don't even lose the day's pay that their hapless members do .
    I fully expect the proposed talks to go ahead and a new "deal" with an arbitrary figure such as 10 but probably 20% assessment included. it may as well be 100% if we agree to it
    This is THE defining moment for the union and its future in my eyes. I was unhappy with HRA etc but this is much much more important for both students and teachers alike. The school environment will changed forever for the worse if we accept this . ....


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    #44
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Quite surprised at how many weren't in the union actually.

    I wonder will it ever be revealed how many left after HRA2 . They lost more than a few of their long serving school stewards myself included .


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    #45
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭2011abc


    km79 wrote: »
    I fully expect the proposed talks to go ahead and a new "deal" with an arbitrary figure such as 10 but probably 20% assessment included. it may as well be 100% if we agree to it
    This is THE defining moment for the union and its future in my eyes. I was unhappy with HRA etc but this is much much more important for both students and teachers alike. The school environment will changed forever for the worse if we accept this . ....


    Unfortunately the HRA2 vote 12 months ago was the defining moment. New union is only hope now .1000 interested members prepared to commit 25 euro a head needed . (Could make a good start on a union with 1000 times 200-250 euro ?) Deafening silence ....Mad to think so many of the 1916 guys were teachers . We've been well and truly castrated in last 5 -10 years .I felt the same about country as a whole but Irish Water scenario gives me hope , is there any hope for teachers or will it spiral downward in flames like in England and US?


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    #46
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,121 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    For a start, every Branch in the country should be submitting motions to Congress to allow any that want to 'opt out' of S&S.

    It is crucifying people in the more difficult schools. It, along with restoration of new entrants to the proper level on the scale and re-examination of a number of other issues should be a given before any nonsense about JC reform is tackled.

    They want JC Reform through, they can pay for it.


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    #47
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    2011abc wrote: »
    Heard a bit of an interview on radio yesterday lunchtime with ASTI guy .While he denied it at the end it was like to me a turning point had been reached.Theyre going to cave on this ( latest !) 'line in the sand' issue for a few bob being thrown by the government whether to 'resourcing' , teachers or whomever ....(!?) At this stage it's pathetic how much RTE are the government propaganda division much of the time ( guess it depends on individual show editor )
    Will be surprised if Jan 22 happens and almost certain it will be the end of their 'optical' ' resistance' .Sure they (Head Office) don't even lose the day's pay that their hapless members do
    .

    PRESENTER "In essence you're still against the notion of this self assessment system working within the schools aren't you ?"

    MR IRWIN " We are , however...."

    On hearing that word 'however' any doubts I had about leaving union evaporated.They went on to discuss 'lack of capacity of schools after several years of cutbacks ' and in a most unusual red herring Mr Irwin referenced the casualisation of profession ( as if it's anything to do with JC reform) .HRA 2 IF it was introduced 'fair and square' was definitely rammed through on the latter . Expect them to cave on this for a few new laptops in schools , a few more CIDs and whatever Quango / 'Advisory' group seats are going ...( just like they've caved on EVERYTHING .' Give and take ' / 'meet in the middle ' indeed !!!!????To list all we've lost you would be at over the dozen mark , union has facilitated the disassembly of our pay and conditions and now we will be sold talk of 'pay rises' .It would take a hell of a pay rise to counter what they've cost us in last 12 months alone and as for the poor unfortunate NQTs ....

    If the refusal of secondary teachers to assess their students for the JCSA continues into the next academic year and the one after that then the assessment will not happen and it is reasonable to assume that, in that scenario, the terminal exam that constitutes 60% of the marks in JCSA English would constitute all of the marks instead. Therefore, I don't see why the unions regard strikes as necessary.


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    #48
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    endakenny wrote: »
    If the refusal of secondary teachers to assess their students for the JCSA continues into the next academic year and the one after that then the assessment will not happen and it is reasonable to assume that, in that scenario, the terminal exam that constitutes 60% of the marks in JCSA English would constitute all of the marks instead. Therefore, I don't see why the unions regard strikes as necessary.

    Because it's unfair to leave students in limbo as to how they will be assessed for their exams???

    Any changes to assessment are flagged 2 years in advance for LC courses.

    It wouldn't be fair to a Junior Cert who thought 40% of their grade was to be awarded based on their coursework and then tell them in third year, sorry that is being scrapped, that exam you thought was only 60% is now 100%, there's going to be substantially more required on the exam now because of the change.


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    #49
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    oh great he is back


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    #50
    f3232
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭f3232


    km79 wrote: »
    oh great he is back

    I for one don't see the value of Groupthink and welcome Endas contribution.


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    #51
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    f3232 wrote: »
    I for one don't see the value of Groupthink and welcome Endas contribution.

    Ya look folks its a public forum so we just gotta go with that.
    Usual..
    Report, ignore, dont respond, keep to your own line of argument (plenty of issues to bring up here). Try to not comment on things other than the ball in play.
    Charter etc.
    We'll try to keep things in line too.
    Dont respond to this post.
    Feel free to PM me.
    Mod


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    #52
    f3232
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭f3232


    spurious wrote: »
    For a start, every Branch in the country should be submitting motions to Congress to allow any that want to 'opt out' of S&S.

    It is crucifying people in the more difficult schools. It, along with restoration of new entrants to the proper level on the scale and re-examination of a number of other issues should be a given before any nonsense about JC reform is tackled.

    They want JC Reform through, they can pay for it.

    On the basis that we are no longer getting paid for s and s, if the option were given to opt out would all teachers just not opt out? I don't understand your logic.


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    #53
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    f3232 wrote: »
    On the basis that we are no longer getting paid for s and s, if the option were given to opt out would all teachers just not opt out? I don't understand your logic.

    You have to take pay cut of around €1700 to opt out so that would deter many.

    For me it would be worth it though as S&S involves dealing with significant levels of physical violence, verbal abuse and sexual harassment. I think it's very unfair that some were given the option and others not.


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    #54
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    spurious wrote: »
    For a start, every Branch in the country should be submitting motions to Congress to allow any that want to 'opt out' of S&S.

    It is crucifying people in the more difficult schools. It, along with restoration of new entrants to the proper level on the scale and re-examination of a number of other issues should be a given before any nonsense about JC reform is tackled.

    They want JC Reform through, they can pay for it.

    Aye but I think once the negotiations vere into anything else but JC assessment then it'll be 'about the money' and thus giving fodder to the likes of Ed Walsh.

    The ONLY way teachers are going to abolish assessment is to hold the line and play a very long game on a single issue.
    Once they start introducing concessions to 'facilitate' the self assessment (moderators,inspectors,more training, PRP, more AP' posts etc) then its game over.

    THe Unions position is clear (well it used to be!) ...no self assessment.


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    #55
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,121 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    f3232 wrote: »
    On the basis that we are no longer getting paid for s and s, if the option were given to opt out would all teachers just not opt out? I don't understand your logic.

    Many (or most) would and part-time teachers would have to be paid for taking the classes, which is as it should be.


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    #56
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,121 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Margaret Vast Yeast wrote: »
    You have to take pay cut of around €1700 to opt out so that would deter many.

    For me it would be worth it though as S&S involves dealing with significant levels of physical violence, verbal abuse and sexual harassment. I think it's very unfair that some were given the option and others not.

    I agree. I know it is having a seriously bad effect in some schools. Teachers are being assaulted and intimidated. No one has any time to do anything other than their own classes and these extra unpaid classes. Post work is slipping due to crazy work overloads, all the small things that teachers do that make the place run more easily are being neglected and the slope is getting very slippery.


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    #57
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Aye but I think once the negotiations vere into anything else but JC assessment then it'll be 'about the money' and thus giving fodder to the likes of Ed Walsh.

    The ONLY way teachers are going to abolish assessment is to hold the line and play a very long game on a single issue.
    Once they start introducing concessions to 'facilitate' the self assessment (moderators,inspectors,more training, PRP, more AP' posts etc) then its game over.

    THe Unions position is clear (well it used to be!) ...no self assessment.

    the union has played this right so far
    zero %
    hope they continue in this vein
    Jan is on the backfoot


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    #58
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    There's no need to get tangled up in anything to do with HRA I think. Keep it clean and to a single issue.

    Opposition to school based assessment full stop. Even with not marking your own students workload will increase significantly in planning and running the project components.

    While the s/s is a difficulty for everyone the rest of the HRA seems to be coming along on the lines it was sold.

    The three year CID has been delivered, this will be two from next September. There has been movement on the pay scales issue for new entrants. The next hurdle is to work on getting the hours up for contracts because we all know that a CID for ten hours isn't worth a ****e to anyone.

    If we get into horse trading on elements of the HRA we may forget it. The sweeteners above got HRA over the line. There is no sweetener in JCSA, keep the issues apart. This has nothing to do with pay or tenure. Its a long view, fundamental issue that shouldn't be sold out on for thirty pieces of silver.


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    #59
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭acequion


    f3232 wrote: »
    On the basis that we are no longer getting paid for s and s, if the option were given to opt out would all teachers just not opt out? I don't understand your logic.

    And if every single teacher opted out,should they not have that right if they so wish? I don't understand your logic!


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    #60
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭acequion


    km79 wrote: »
    the union has played this right so far
    zero %
    hope they continue in this vein
    Jan is on the backfoot

    I would urge all of you to write to your union leaders telling them exactly that: 0% They need to keep getting that message repeatedly. Loud and clear!


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    #61
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Alqua wrote: »
    Will be literally just admin and maintenance staff from what I can gather. Hopefully I can explain to the union rep at the gate and just not cross the picket?

    I'm surprised the admin and maintenance staff will pass the picket. They are generally union members too. They should be reminded of such...


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