Not a member of union for Tuesday's Strike! (Thread Re-opened)

flandabieduzie

Just wondering if there is anyone else that isn't am amber of a Union ahead of the strike on Tuesday?
What are my options for Tuesday? The reason I was not a member of a union is because I was out of work for two years and only had 8.5 hours at the start of the year and was advised not to bother at that time.
I am now teaching almost full hours in another school. Some are advising to join while others are saying it is not worth my time!

I now don't know what to do. Do I stay home and loose a days wages? Do I go to school? Or do I just join a union?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

2011abc

Be very careful about this .There is a (remote) chance of a 'break in service' which could have massive consequences for staff especially more experienced ones .We were told write a letter to principal advising them that you are 'available for work' although to be honest there are 101 different scenarios being thrown around .
Some have stated on Voice For Teachers Facebook page that last time round uncertified sick leave was not accepted by Dept.
Get this sorted before Monday evening .

endacl

Advise your principle that you are not a member of a union and are available for work. The school will be closed and won't have to pass a picket. Enjoy your day off. You won't lose pay, and there'll be no break in service.

amacca

Not being smart but I don't think anyone can answer that except you

What do you think yourself? which of those options are you leaning towards

1) Sick day…don't lose a days pay

2) Go in…don't lose a days pay…deal with fallout/negative consequences from other staff members if any…you're in the best position to to decide how that might play out as only you know you're colleagues

3) Try and join, hopefully have it put through and protest in solidarity to protect your terms and conditions in to the future

4) Find out if the principal etc knows if you're in a union or even has a right to know….if they don't pretend you are in union and protest…accept the fact that maybe they still might know and there could be negative consequences to lying.

5) Protest anyway because you think it is the right thing to do. Accept the consequences.

there may be other options but I think thats fairly comprehensive.

basically its down to you….what do you think is right here?…..if you think the protest is justified…then maybe join or show solidarity and accept the consequences.

if you think its not then stand up for what you believe in and go into work and accept the consequences.

May not be much help but thats how I see it.

amacca

2011abc wrote: »

Some have stated on Voice For Teachers Facebook page that last time round uncertified sick leave was not accepted by Dept.

I fail to see how thats possible.

doc_17

Join a union. If anything ever happened, such as losing your job/hours in an unfair manner to something like nepotism, they are a valuable resource. We all reap the rewards, yes there are rewards, so we should all contribute in my opinion. I know they sold out post 11 workers ( I was post 04 and I was sold out by older members) but the union are the only ones lobbying for post 11 entrants to regain their proper pay etc.

What the department want is for no union to exist them they would have carte Blanche to do whatever they wanted.

amacca

endacl wrote: »

Advise your principle that you are not a member of a union and are available for work. The school will be closed and won't have to pass a picket. Enjoy your day off. You won't lose pay, and there'll be no break in service.

Unfortunately thats not the case everywhere…some principals are telling non unionised staff they have to be in work.

I don't know if they have to because they are bound by rules or its an idealogical thing with them.

I suspect if you volunteer the information to them in a show of hand wringing oh woe is me what will I do type worry (but possibly really I just don't want to pay the subs because I think its no use to me) then they have no choice but to tell you to come in but Ill admit to not being sure of this.

amacca

doc_17 wrote: »

What the department want is for no union to exist them they would have carte Blanche to do whatever they wanted.

An increasing number of people just don't seem to be able to or want to join those dots unfortunately

A lot of long term pain being ignored for short term gain.

doc_17

amacca wrote: »

An increasing number of people just don't seem to be able to or want to join those dots unfortunately

A lot of long term pain being ignored for short term gain.

Very true. I've been to congress a few times and the stories I hear would horrify you, especially from VECs/ETBs. Some of the things they do are outrageous and god only knows what they and the department would do if there wasn't a union.

seavill

flandabieduzie wrote: »

Just wondering if there is anyone else that isn't am amber of a Union ahead of the strike on Tuesday?
What are my options for Tuesday? The reason I was not a member of a union is because I was out of work for two years and only had 8.5 hours at the start of the year and was advised not to bother at that time.
I am now teaching almost full hours in another school. Some are advising to join while others are saying it is not worth my time!

I now don't know what to do. Do I stay home and loose a days wages? Do I go to school? Or do I just join a union?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I can't advise on what you should do really except speak to your principal on Monday.
However in relation to joining the union I have no idea why you are letting the opinions of others mean anything to you. Do you want to join the union? or have you some objection to joining the union? Other peoples opinions are irrelevant in this regard.

Do you want the security of some backup if anything should happen (although at times the backup is not great, others it is) or are you happy to fight your own corner on issues?
If you are comfortable doing this then don't join the union.

If you agree with the idea of unions and what they stand for, then join.

Only you can answer those questions, other people opinions are irrelevant as its a personal issue.

I thought I heard somewhere that principals and DPs were being advised not to go in on Tuesday so if they are not in and no kids in you shouldn't be expected to go in, even if you tell them you are available.

doc_17

seavill wrote: »

I can't advise on what you should do really except speak to your principal on Monday.
However in relation to joining the union I have no idea why you are letting the opinions of others mean anything to you. Do you want to join the union? or have you some objection to joining the union? Other peoples opinions are irrelevant in this regard.

Do you want the security of some backup if anything should happen (although at times the backup is not great, others it is) or are you happy to fight your own corner on issues?
If you are comfortable doing this then don't join the union.

If you agree with the idea of unions and what they stand for, then join.

Only you can answer those questions, other people opinions are irrelevant as its a personal issue.

I thought I heard somewhere that principals and DPs were being advised not to go in on Tuesday so if they are not in and no kids in you shouldn't be expected to go in, even if you tell them you are available.

This. If you agre with unions and what they stand for. The race to bottom is alive and well and would be streaking even further ahead if it weren't for unions.

evolving_doors

flandabieduzie wrote: »

Just wondering if there is anyone else that isn't am amber of a Union ahead of the strike on Tuesday?
What are my options for Tuesday? The reason I was not a member of a union is because I was out of work for two years and only had 8.5 hours at the start of the year and was advised not to bother at that time.
I am now teaching almost full hours in another school. Some are advising to join while others are saying it is not worth my time!

I now don't know what to do. Do I stay home and loose a days wages? Do I go to school? Or do I just join a union?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Well at least you are seeking advice so that's a good thing.

If asked by non-union members what to do; the union reps in the schools have been instructed to tell you to either ...

A.Join the union and act accordingly.
or
B. Ask your principal what you should do. They will give you the non-union options.

Thread closed as this question is being done to death on the other thread. (Unless the OP wants further clarification in which case PM me and I'll re-open it)

Anyone else asks just send em here for a quick read.
MOD


.

evolving_doors

Armelodie wrote: »

Well at least you are seeking advice so that's a good thing.

If asked by non-union members what to do; the union reps in the schools have been instructed to tell you to either ...

A.Join the union and act accordingly.
or
B. Ask your principal what you should do. They will give you the non-union options.

Thread closed as this question is being done to death on the other thread. (Unless the OP wants further clarification in which case PM me and I'll re-open it)

Anyone else asks just send em here for a quick read.
MOD


.

UPDATE : Ok so it would appear that some non-union teachers are being instructed to be physically in the school on Tuesday. Is this true?

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

UPDATE : Ok so it would appear that some non-union teachers are being instructed to be physically in the school on Tuesday. Is this true?

In my school we were all told that any member of staff that will be reporting for work on Tuesday was to tell the principal the same. Despite being a union member he is opening the school. :rolleyes:

He had the same meeting with the SNAs. I saw it more of a divide and conquer strategy. None of our non teaching staff are coming in on Tuesday to the best of my knowledge. We only have one non union teacher, don't know what they are doing yet, don't think they know themselves.

thefasteriwalk

We were unofficially advised to ring in sick.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In my school we were all told that any member of staff that will be reporting for work on Tuesday was to tell the principal the same. Despite being a union member he is opening the school. :rolleyes:

He had the same meeting with the SNAs. I saw it more of a divide and conquer strategy. None of our non teaching staff are coming in on Tuesday to the best of my knowledge. We only have one non union teacher, don't know what they are doing yet, don't think they know themselves.

Go on rainbowtrout , you know what i'm going to suggest.... report his a55.

A strike means total withdrawal of labour; in this case for the full 24 hour
period.

Picketing should commence 30 minutes before the normal opening time of the
school/centre.

For the duration of the strike, members must remain completely off the
premises of the employer – tea breaks or “bathroom breaks” must be taken
elsewhere

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

Go on rainbowtrout , you know what i'm going to suggest.... report his a55.

A strike means total withdrawal of labour; in this case for the full 24 hour
period.

Picketing should commence 30 minutes before the normal opening time of the
school/centre.

For the duration of the strike, members must remain completely off the
premises of the employer – tea breaks or “bathroom breaks” must be taken
elsewhere

Let's just say the union are aware of the situation.

TheDriver

Its not possible to ring in sick on Tues unless you have a cert, I believe this is the case across the ETBs.
I understand a number of staff members not in unions are having difficulty joining at short notice. This puts them in a bind.
Principals and DPs in a union should not be involved in school business that day unless for some massive health and safety reason i.e. school has been vandalised and must be dealt with etc.
I know that in some ETBs, the schools will be open extra early prior to any picketing for the purpose of "turning up to work"
SIPTU and IMPACT have instructed their members to work as normal and this must be respected also. These workers are in a bind. Imagine if 2 SIPTU workers had an issue in the building, would the whole school close?

RealJohn

What any members of staff not part of TUI or ASTI should be doing is coming to the gate and refusing to pass the picket. It's then up to their employers whether or not to dock them a day's pay or to accept that they made themselves available for work but were entitled to refuse to pass the picket.

While I don't advocate any bullying or intimidating behaviour, anyone who passes the picket should be told that they are undermining a legitimate protest by doing so and that we don't approve of their behaviour.

Any union member passing the picket for any reason must be reported, preferably being informed that this was what was going to happen. Whether you agree with the strike or not, you should forfeit your union protection for passing the picket.

r93kaey5p2izun

TheDriver wrote: »

Its not possible to ring in sick on Tues unless you have a cert, I believe this is the case across the ETBs.
I understand a number of staff members not in unions are having difficulty joining at short notice. This puts them in a bind.
Principals and DPs in a union should not be involved in school business that day unless for some massive health and safety reason i.e. school has been vandalised and must be dealt with etc.
I know that in some ETBs, the schools will be open extra early prior to any picketing for the purpose of "turning up to work"
SIPTU and IMPACT have instructed their members to work as normal and this must be respected also. These workers are in a bind. Imagine if 2 SIPTU workers had an issue in the building, would the whole school close?

Our non-union teachers have been told by ETB HR that self-certified sick leave is a legitimate option for tomorrow. TUI have said that new members will be considered accepted if online form is filled in by midnight tonight or if paper form is given to rep. Is it technical difficulties they are having? Or is ASTI working a different system?

Alqua

Our school was originally supposed to close tomorrow but is now opening (management are ASTI so they will be striking too). I'm non-union but have put my name down to picket - have I made a mess of this now meaning a break in service?

rainbowtrout

Alqua wrote: »

Our school was originally supposed to close tomorrow but is now opening (management are ASTI so they will be striking too). I'm non-union but have put my name down to picket - have I made a mess of this now meaning a break in service?

Who's opening the school?

I don't think you can join the picket if you are non union. You have the option of not crossing the picket.

Alqua

Will be literally just admin and maintenance staff from what I can gather. Hopefully I can explain to the union rep at the gate and just not cross the picket?

rainbowtrout

Alqua wrote: »

Will be literally just admin and maintenance staff from what I can gather. Hopefully I can explain to the union rep at the gate and just not cross the picket?

But who's opening the school? Caretaker? Union members have been instructed not to prevent people from passing the picket to go to work. I don't think you'll have to do much with the union to be honest.

vamos!

Two of my colleagues asked me to propose their ASTI membership. One sent away form last week and the other today. They are down to picket. I wonder do they need to contact ASTI or the department to explain that their membership may not yet be valid?

Alqua

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But who's opening the school? Caretaker? Union members have been instructed not to prevent people from passing the picket to go to work. I don't think you'll have to do much with the union to be honest.

The caretaker is opening the school. I'm just worried because there was a letter put up in the staffroom for non union members and I can't fully remember what it said. It was something along the lines of 'attend for work as usual', don't think it said anything about coming in extra early to avoid picket or anything like that..I hope!

spurious

When I was teaching, it was none of management's business who was or wasn't in the union. They may have had their suspicions (or even known for sure) that some people were non-union, but we never enlightened them either way (and they never indicated officially that they knew or suspected).
Has this changed now?

vamos!

How do they know who's supposed to be in school tomorrow? Union rep? Not on strike roster?

r93kaey5p2izun

vamos! wrote: »

How do they know who's supposed to be in school tomorrow? Union rep? Not on strike roster?

Would they have deduction at source info?

spurious

Margaret Vast Yeast wrote: »

Would they have deduction at source info?

They can't be given that under Data Protection stuff.

amacca

Margaret Vast Yeast wrote: »

Would they have deduction at source info?

Should they have, would be a more pertinent question imo

r93kaey5p2izun

spurious wrote: »

They can't be given that under Data Protection stuff.

Does payroll not have it anyway? I assume it's them who will be checking who presented for work to determine who loses a day' s pay, so they will see who was not present and not in union either.

evolving_doors

spurious wrote: »

When I was teaching, it was none of management's business who was or wasn't in the union. They may have had their suspicions (or even known for sure) that some people were non-union, but we never enlightened them either way (and they never indicated officially that they knew or suspected).
Has this changed now?

A few ways... (And this isn't a management bashing thing it has to be said, as I know my principal doesn't really give a fig either way but if you come forward then that's your own lookout!)

1. School asks all non-union members to attend a briefing about the strike. You're not obliged to go BTW as the management in a school can't act as both a union member (if they are union members) and your boss at the same time. I know a few in our school are saying nothing to no-one...

2. .. although in saying that the roster is posted on the notice board in school so it's obvious enough who's not in the union !( although you could be actually in the union but away for a doctors appointment/wedding or something on the Tuesday too!)

3. With the advent of E-mails .. usually all union members are sent updates via email .... baring in mind the Principal/VP are union members, then they can see from the mailing list who is or isn't in the union!

TheDriver

To clarify a few points
1) other unions seemingly have informed their members to attend work as normal because its not a congress "all out" type of strike hence caretakers, secretarial staff, SNAs etc all turn up for work as usual (in theory)
2) our non union teachers who tried to join were told so many mixed messages. They couldn't get a straight answer about if they were members or not

evolving_doors

TheDriver wrote: »

To clarify a few points
1) other unions seemingly have informed their members to attend work as normal because its not a congress "all out" type of strike hence caretakers, secretarial staff, SNAs etc all turn up for work as usual (in theory)
2) our non union teachers who tried to join were told so many mixed messages. They couldn't get a straight answer about if they were members or not

Ya I think you still have to go through the ratification process (at a district meeting) before becoming a 'full member'. So they are probably being cagey in case you might decide not to bother as it might be too late. I'd say the unions will definitely see an uptake in their membership as we've had 3 teachers in our school join last week! I don;t think they would have bothered if a strike wasn;t on the cards.

Moody_mona

What did non union members do? We had four who passed the picket at school start time this morning, and left about half an hour before school finishing time. Waving to the picket as they left. Have to say it made me pretty mad, even though it can't be an easy decision to make. What did others do?

rainbowtrout

Moody_mona wrote: »

What did non union members do? We had four who passed the picket at school start time this morning, and left about half an hour before school finishing time. Waving to the picket as they left. Have to say it made me pretty mad, even though it can't be an easy decision to make. What did others do?

Our school was closed. So no non union/ non teaching staff were in. Our ETB instructed the closure.

evolving_doors

School was shut but NUM's were told that if they want to be paid then write the letter to say they are available!
if they want to not be paid then dont write the letter.
Quite surprised at how many weren't in the union actually.

flandabieduzie

Joined a union and was on the picket line. School was open. Admin and caretakers had to attend.

evolving_doors

flandabieduzie wrote: »

Joined a union and was on the picket line. School was open. Admin and caretakers had to attend.

Fairplay

Now you may officially have a moan about the union (and how 'downhill' it's gone since you joined):pac:

km79

next strike day is Thursday jan 22nd although I've a feeling that may well be postponed

2011abc

Heard a bit of an interview on radio yesterday lunchtime with ASTI guy .While he denied it at the end it was like to me a turning point had been reached.Theyre going to cave on this ( latest !) 'line in the sand' issue for a few bob being thrown by the government whether to 'resourcing' , teachers or whomever ....(!?) At this stage it's pathetic how much RTE are the government propaganda division much of the time ( guess it depends on individual show editor )
Will be surprised if Jan 22 happens and almost certain it will be the end of their 'optical' ' resistance' .Sure they (Head Office) don't even lose the day's pay that their hapless members do
.

PRESENTER "In essence you're still against the notion of this self assessment system working within the schools aren't you ?"

MR IRWIN " We are , however...."

On hearing that word 'however' any doubts I had about leaving union evaporated.They went on to discuss 'lack of capacity of schools after several years of cutbacks ' and in a most unusual red herring Mr Irwin referenced the casualisation of profession ( as if it's anything to do with JC reform) .HRA 2 IF it was introduced 'fair and square' was definitely rammed through on the latter . Expect them to cave on this for a few new laptops in schools , a few more CIDs and whatever Quango / 'Advisory' group seats are going ...( just like they've caved on EVERYTHING .' Give and take ' / 'meet in the middle ' indeed !!!!????To list all we've lost you would be at over the dozen mark , union has facilitated the disassembly of our pay and conditions and now we will be sold talk of 'pay rises' .It would take a hell of a pay rise to counter what they've cost us in last 12 months alone and as for the poor unfortunate NQTs ....

km79

2011abc wrote: »

Heard a bit of an interview on radio yesterday with ASTI guy .While he denied it at the end it was like to me a turning point had been reached.Theyre going to cave on this ( latest !) 'line in the sand' issue for a few bob being thrown by the government whether to 'resourcing' , teachers or whomever ....At this stage it's pathetic how much RTE are the government propaganda division much of the time ( guess it depends on individual show editor )
Will be surprised if Jan 22 happens and almost certain it will be the end of their 'optical' ' resistance' .Sure they (Head Office) don't even lose the day's pay that their hapless members do .

I fully expect the proposed talks to go ahead and a new "deal" with an arbitrary figure such as 10 but probably 20% assessment included. it may as well be 100% if we agree to it
This is THE defining moment for the union and its future in my eyes. I was unhappy with HRA etc but this is much much more important for both students and teachers alike. The school environment will changed forever for the worse if we accept this . ....

2011abc

Armelodie wrote: »

Quite surprised at how many weren't in the union actually.

I wonder will it ever be revealed how many left after HRA2 . They lost more than a few of their long serving school stewards myself included .

2011abc

km79 wrote: »

I fully expect the proposed talks to go ahead and a new "deal" with an arbitrary figure such as 10 but probably 20% assessment included. it may as well be 100% if we agree to it
This is THE defining moment for the union and its future in my eyes. I was unhappy with HRA etc but this is much much more important for both students and teachers alike. The school environment will changed forever for the worse if we accept this . ....

Unfortunately the HRA2 vote 12 months ago was the defining moment. New union is only hope now .1000 interested members prepared to commit 25 euro a head needed . (Could make a good start on a union with 1000 times 200-250 euro ?) Deafening silence ....Mad to think so many of the 1916 guys were teachers . We've been well and truly castrated in last 5 -10 years .I felt the same about country as a whole but Irish Water scenario gives me hope , is there any hope for teachers or will it spiral downward in flames like in England and US?

spurious

For a start, every Branch in the country should be submitting motions to Congress to allow any that want to 'opt out' of S&S.

It is crucifying people in the more difficult schools. It, along with restoration of new entrants to the proper level on the scale and re-examination of a number of other issues should be a given before any nonsense about JC reform is tackled.

They want JC Reform through, they can pay for it.

endakenny

2011abc wrote: »

Heard a bit of an interview on radio yesterday lunchtime with ASTI guy .While he denied it at the end it was like to me a turning point had been reached.Theyre going to cave on this ( latest !) 'line in the sand' issue for a few bob being thrown by the government whether to 'resourcing' , teachers or whomever ....(!?) At this stage it's pathetic how much RTE are the government propaganda division much of the time ( guess it depends on individual show editor )
Will be surprised if Jan 22 happens and almost certain it will be the end of their 'optical' ' resistance' .Sure they (Head Office) don't even lose the day's pay that their hapless members do
.

PRESENTER "In essence you're still against the notion of this self assessment system working within the schools aren't you ?"

MR IRWIN " We are , however...."

On hearing that word 'however' any doubts I had about leaving union evaporated.They went on to discuss 'lack of capacity of schools after several years of cutbacks ' and in a most unusual red herring Mr Irwin referenced the casualisation of profession ( as if it's anything to do with JC reform) .HRA 2 IF it was introduced 'fair and square' was definitely rammed through on the latter . Expect them to cave on this for a few new laptops in schools , a few more CIDs and whatever Quango / 'Advisory' group seats are going ...( just like they've caved on EVERYTHING .' Give and take ' / 'meet in the middle ' indeed !!!!????To list all we've lost you would be at over the dozen mark , union has facilitated the disassembly of our pay and conditions and now we will be sold talk of 'pay rises' .It would take a hell of a pay rise to counter what they've cost us in last 12 months alone and as for the poor unfortunate NQTs ....

If the refusal of secondary teachers to assess their students for the JCSA continues into the next academic year and the one after that then the assessment will not happen and it is reasonable to assume that, in that scenario, the terminal exam that constitutes 60% of the marks in JCSA English would constitute all of the marks instead. Therefore, I don't see why the unions regard strikes as necessary.

rainbowtrout

endakenny wrote: »

If the refusal of secondary teachers to assess their students for the JCSA continues into the next academic year and the one after that then the assessment will not happen and it is reasonable to assume that, in that scenario, the terminal exam that constitutes 60% of the marks in JCSA English would constitute all of the marks instead. Therefore, I don't see why the unions regard strikes as necessary.

Because it's unfair to leave students in limbo as to how they will be assessed for their exams???

Any changes to assessment are flagged 2 years in advance for LC courses.

It wouldn't be fair to a Junior Cert who thought 40% of their grade was to be awarded based on their coursework and then tell them in third year, sorry that is being scrapped, that exam you thought was only 60% is now 100%, there's going to be substantially more required on the exam now because of the change.

km79

oh great he is back

f3232

km79 wrote: »

oh great he is back

I for one don't see the value of Groupthink and welcome Endas contribution.

evolving_doors

f3232 wrote: »

I for one don't see the value of Groupthink and welcome Endas contribution.

Ya look folks its a public forum so we just gotta go with that.
Usual..
Report, ignore, dont respond, keep to your own line of argument (plenty of issues to bring up here). Try to not comment on things other than the ball in play.
Charter etc.
We'll try to keep things in line too.
Dont respond to this post.
Feel free to PM me.
Mod