Time for a revolution??

Flange/Flanders

Joshua J wrote: »

Your problem is you think this begins and ends with water charges. I get the feeling I'd be wasting my time explaining to you that it's not about IW but a culmination of years of bad governance.

Even in your worst case scenario a general election would be called and you, like everyone else, gets a vote. The sky wouldn't fall in. You could even vote for Enda again. Double the love.

Im actually beginning to think there's a significant percentage of people who are more than happy to pay for water. Definitely a straw poll amongst my friends would suggest that (post grad college students, young professionals from the public and private sector). Obviously they're not impressed with having another bill but they accept the vast need for a change to how we deal with water in this country. The separate local authorities are inept at dealing with the matter.

Secondly, bad governance. Give me specific examples. The government had to follow set out by the troika in order to ensure we still functioned as a country. Some will say burn the bondholders or to hell with what the troika says. Well what happens when we cannot go to the markets to borrow money? Social spending falls instantly, public wages cut in an instant, money stops coming out of the ATMs, an immediate increase in all taxes.

Finally, you think Ireland are itching for a revolution? Well, bet you a pint that Michael Lowry beats the quota on the first count in Tipp North in 18 months time....

Flange/Flanders

For Forks Sake wrote: »

We have failed to agree a programme for government. Fresh elections will be called.

In unrelated news, Comrades Murphy and Coppinger have been shot.

End Communication.

Peacefully shot I'm sure?

Streetwalker

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Id love to join in but i will be at work and then i have to do my christmas shopping.

Fine for some.

Rebuilding our democracy is thing to take effort and time. FG/FF and Labour have done great damage to the nation. I am taking some time off work on the 10th along with a few workmates to try and bring about some change for the good of us all. Maybe you could join the effort

KomradeBishop

On leaving the EU - the question there is whether we want to take a large economic hit today, in return for future redevelopment and eventually full employment, or do we want to be stuck in a European Union headed for long-term stagnation (ala Japan's 'Lost Two Decades'), where we have constant high-unemployment for decades.

Right now, Europe is trending for deflation, and once that sets in, any meagre economic recovery we're seeing, is going to be dragged down along with Europe:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/inflation-cpi

I'd like to see Europe resolve its economic/political problems without any country leaving, but that looks completely impossible now, given how dysfunctional Europe is, when it comes to engaging in recovery policies - the increasing political/social unrest both here and in Europe, is only going to get worse and worse, until countries start to leave the EU.

smcgiff

Streetwalker wrote: »

Rebuilding our democracy is thing to take effort and time. FG/FF and Labour have done great damage to the nation. I am taking some time off work on the 10th along with a few workmates to try and bring about some change for the good of us all. Maybe you could join the effort

What specific damage have FG/Labour done to the country, what would you have done differently? At the March what will you be specifically agitating for?

Arbiter of Good Taste

smcgiff wrote: »

What specific damage have FG/Labour done to the country, what would you have done differently? At the March what will you be specifically agitating for?

And of course what are the alternative - SF, Independents I presume - going to offer?

Streetwalker

smcgiff wrote: »

What specific damage have FG/Labour done to the country, what would you have done differently? At the March what will you be specifically agitating for?

Further destroyed the health service.

Further destroyed education system

Hired college fees

Didn't lower social welfare rates enough

Kept higher paid civil servants in the lifestyle they are used to

Drove god knows how many young people from our shores

Failed to address the homelessness situation

Bent over backwards for multinationals to help them avoid tax

Failed to get a decent deal on the bankers gambling debts

Engaged in outrageous spin and PR

Carried on where FF left off

I could go on and on and don't get me even started on the abolition of quangos. Jesus I haven't even mentioned IW.

They have been an utter failure also on the jobs front we are still at above 11% of our people unemployed ffs.

At the demo I will be calling for an election and the disbandment of the water scam.

Streetwalker

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

And of course what are the alternative - SF, Independents I presume - going to offer?

They deserve the chance imo and thank god many others see it that way according to recent polls. As always FG/FF/Labour have let the people down, I for one will be giving SF and the Independents the chance to prove their worth.

smcgiff

Streetwalker wrote: »

Further destroyed the health service.

Further destroyed education system

Hired college fees

Didn't lower social welfare rates enough

Kept higher paid civil servants in the lifestyle they are used to

Drove god knows how many young people from our shores

Failed to address the homelessness situation

Bent over backwards for multinationals to help them avoid tax

Failed to get a decent deal on the bankers gambling debts

Engaged in outrageous spin and PR

Carried on where FF left off

I could go on and on and don't get me even started on the abolition of quangos. Jesus I haven't even mentioned IW.

They have been an utter failure also on the jobs front we are still at above 11% of our people unemployed ffs.

At the demo I will be calling for an election and the disbandment of the water scam.

Fair play, you answered me. I don't agree with what you've said mind.

BTW, what was the percentage unemployment rate when the current government took over?

Also, are you happy for those that currently pay income tax to pay even more than the flat rate currently being proposed through higher taxes? Assuming you want to drink treated water. It's contradictory to your desire for less social welfare.

Also, don't forget to mention your desire for lower social welfare to your fellow marchers.

Flange/Flanders

Streetwalker wrote: »

Further destroyed the health service.

Further destroyed education system

Hired college fees

Didn't lower social welfare rates enough

Kept higher paid civil servants in the lifestyle they are used to

Drove god knows how many young people from our shores

Failed to address the homelessness situation

Bent over backwards for multinationals to help them avoid tax

Failed to get a decent deal on the bankers gambling debts

Engaged in outrageous spin and PR

Carried on where FF left off

I could go on and on and don't get me even started on the abolition of quangos. Jesus I haven't even mentioned IW.

They have been an utter failure also on the jobs front we are still at above 11% of our people unemployed ffs.

At the demo I will be calling for an election and the disbandment of the water scam.

Destroyed health service/education system? Give me specific examples.

By the way, our health service in 2003 cost around €3bn, in 2009 it costs around €13bn. Far too much for what this country can afford.

Higher college fees? So what other system do you propose to address the underfunding of our colleges and universities?

Didnt lower social welfare rates enough?!! So labour are actually defending the people they proport to represent?! Shame on them.

Civil servents fancy lifestyle? Fair enough they should have dont more to address civil service renumeration, standards and efficiency. But there are plenty of lower level civil servents who are not living the life of reilly. Also, there's the mighty jugernaut of the unions that have to be accounted for.

Bent over backwards so the multinational can avoid tax? Ever think that the reason that these multinationals are in Ireland is because of our favourable tax scheme? And why Europe wants to us get rid of it? Absolutely let them keep paying reduced taxes because it means they stay here providing jobs.

Failed to get a deal on the banking debts? Fair point, however it comes down to the troika not being willing to fund us it we burned the bondholders.

Outrageous spin & PR? Examples?

Carried on where FF left off? Yeah like trying to stop us borrowing 20bn a year. But if you have an alternative economic policy then feel free to tell us? Keynesian maybe?

I actually couldnt be arsed explaining why we need to pay for water again. What I will say is that unemployment is falling, our budget deficit is falling, consumer sentiment is rising, tax takes are better than expected, GDP is slowly improving.

ArmaniJeanss

Streetwalker wrote: »

Didn't lower social welfare rates enough

This one is interesting.
It makes you an enemy of large swathes of the purported revolutionaries and will see you up against the wall with us capitalists.

Jawgap

lufties wrote: »

I don't know what you are trying to say there. You mean protest aginst vunerable TD's? What has voting ever achieved?

Try living in a country where there's no voting and see if what they achieve is any better.

My point is that vulnerable TDs are more easy to persuade to drop their support from the government (in the hope of being re-elected) - that provokes the desired for election and then we get to see if the whole electorate, rather than those shrieking the loudest, have an appetite for change and what that change might be.

We also get to see if the left of left wing personalities can generate the mandate they assert is there.

lufties wrote: »

The system needs to change now more than ever. I don't have faith in any political parties, they are all gonna have vested interests to look after along with themselves. I hoped direct democracy would gain some support but it wasn't to be. The current government is only representing wealthy, Ireland has become Ireland inc, people are only pps numbers.

I agree the system needs to change, and when we get an election you get to pay your money to put yourself before your fellow citizens and see if they agree with you.

......and my sense of the water protests is that they are anything but democratic - what plebiscite was held to select the leaders? Who among them is not self-appointed?

KomradeBishop

Jawgap wrote: »

......and my sense of the water protests is that they are anything but democratic - what plebiscite was held to select the leaders? Who among them is not self-appointed?

Yes, protesting - a basic exercise of freedom of expression/speech - is undemocratic...

Jawgap

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Yes, protesting - a basic exercise of freedom of expression/speech - is undemocratic...

Feel free to quote me out of context there, bud.

I was referring to the irony of a 'direct democracy' campaign being led by a self-appointed leadership.

Peaceful protesting is indeed a fundamental right - even obligation - my issue is with those who hijack the citizens' right to protest and skew in a direction that suits their own agenda.

Zonda999

If you're to look at the comments on the likes of the Journal and the likes, you'd swear people believe they are about to topple the government, which I think is seriously deluded. This government will run its full term until March 2016, and people will have their choice then.

Will SF and the independents make gains, no doubt they will. Will they form a government, no to be honest, I don't think so. They would require FF as a coalition party and that won't happen as far as I can tell. The only even half plausible scenario is some mega coalition of SF and everything to their left, a hard left government. Given the make up of Irelands economy, who thinks that would be a good thing? A governments job as far as I can tell is do its best to keep a country on a sustainable path, and attempt to improve the overall quality of life of its citizens, if possible. Who here can honestly say that they think a hard left government would achieve that?

lufties

Jawgap wrote: »

Try living in a country where there's no voting and see if what they achieve is any better.

My point is that vulnerable TDs are more easy to persuade to drop their support from the government (in the hope of being re-elected) - that provokes the desired for election and then we get to see if the whole electorate, rather than those shrieking the loudest, have an appetite for change and what that change might be.

We also get to see if the left of left wing personalities can generate the mandate they assert is there.



I agree the system needs to change, and when we get an election you get to pay your money to put yourself before your fellow citizens and see if they agree with you.

......and my sense of the water protests is that they are anything but democratic - what plebiscite was held to select the leaders? Who among them is not self-appointed?

Well jack o connor and his band of gravy seekers can't be relied on. If people keep protesting then eventually have to act. Doing nothing will gain nothing.

Zonda999

Streetwalker wrote: »

Further destroyed the health service.

Further destroyed education system

Hired college fees

Didn't lower social welfare rates enough

Kept higher paid civil servants in the lifestyle they are used to

Drove god knows how many young people from our shores

Failed to address the homelessness situation

Bent over backwards for multinationals to help them avoid tax

Failed to get a decent deal on the bankers gambling debts

Engaged in outrageous spin and PR

Carried on where FF left off

I could go on and on and don't get me even started on the abolition of quangos. Jesus I haven't even mentioned IW.

They have been an utter failure also on the jobs front we are still at above 11% of our people unemployed ffs.

At the demo I will be calling for an election and the disbandment of the water scam.

"Carried on where FF left off"

You mean by cutting the deficit? Sure the deficit was only €20.9 billion in 2011. The government tax take in 2011 was €34 billion. Think about that for a second to give you an idea of the kind of position we were in, in 2011. We were taking in €34 billion and spending €55 billion. Enlighten us as to how you would have closed that gap there why don't you?

KomradeBishop

Jawgap wrote: »

Feel free to quote me out of context there, bud.

I was referring to the irony of a 'direct democracy' campaign being led by a self-appointed leadership.

Peaceful protesting is indeed a fundamental right - even obligation - my issue is with those who hijack the citizens' right to protest and skew in a direction that suits their own agenda.

Fair enough, but you referred to the water protests in general; I don't see any affiliation between direct democracy supporters and the protesters.

KomradeBishop

People talking about the deficit: Economics is not as simple as balancing budgets. Europe will not have a proper recovery until significant and sustainable deficit spending occurs, to boost aggregate demand and to reduce private debt levels - this is a lesson well learned from the Great Depression and subsequent New Deal economic policies.

While Ireland is using the Euro for public spending, there is very little we can do locally to engage in proper recovery policies - however there is plenty that can be done at a European level to bring recovery and end the economic crisis (because the Euro is managed centrally in Europe), but it is politically unlikely for that to happen (because Germany effectively has a veto on potential recovery policies).

The more people that realize this the better, because otherwise (if people only think of economics in local terms) people will not be aware of the very wide array of alternatives available.


There are numerous other ways that Ireland can stay in the Euro, while reducing our dependence on the Euro, in ways that allow increased government spending and increased aggregate demand though - so again, even at a local level it is not as simple as balancing budgets.

People need to learn more about Economics at a European level, and to actually put time into researching alternative policies and to learn economics as a subject (and how deeply flawed a subject it is), so that the problems with our current system, and the alternatives, can be understood; simplistic ideas about balancing budgets, give people a very skewed and misleading view of economics, and the options which are available to us.

mad muffin

Enough of this petty squabbling!

Let them eat cake!

Flange/Flanders

Zonda999 wrote: »

"Carried on where FF left off"

You mean by cutting the deficit? Sure the deficit was only €20.9 billion in 2011. The government tax take in 2011 was €34 billion. Think about that for a second to give you an idea of the kind of position we were in, in 2011. We were taking in €34 billion and spending €55 billion. Enlighten us as to how you would have closed that gap there why don't you?

How dare you bring reasoned, informed debate into this conversation?!

Arbiter of Good Taste

And now Ruth Coppinger thinks Dell should be commandeered by the State. The lack of reason from the Left is mind blowing

SpaceTime

Actually, to me it just shows that Ireland's democratic system works.

The politicians tried to do something that was deeply unpopular and thanks to the electoral system which is increasingly being used to its full extent, they're running terrified of losing their seats.

Ireland's PR-STV multi-seat constituency voting system basically creates a situation where parties cannot guarantee being in power and where you've a risk of losing seats in constituencies much more dramatically than in the UK, US or French systems.

The fact that FF remained in power for about 80% of the time in the past just shows that the electorate didn't really comprehend how to use the system or actually liked the way FF did things thus were some kind of sadists.

However, since the 80s and really over the last decade+ that's changed and people are using the system to its full extent.

We don't really need a revolution, we just need to let the TDs know that their jobs are on the line. They know that and that's why they've backtracked so dramatically.

You cannot really push something through in a system like ours if it doesn't have some degree of popular support or at least acceptance and understanding by the public. The austerity measures had to be sold as something that we needed to do and I think a lot of people just put up with them but the water charges were really a bridge too far.

You see really aggressive protesting in countries like France, because you've an executive president who until recently had a 7 year term which gave them huge power that was very unaccountable other than that one election every 7 years. The result of that was the growth of a culture of aggressive protesting to express public opinion.

I think all you're really seeing is Irish people sending a message that they're discontented with the government and the government, if it wants to have a future in politics, will just have to respond to that or face sending out CVs at the next election.

There's also a serious risk that backbenchers, especially in Labour but also in FG will pull the plug. Or that Enda will be handed the Irish Water branding, blamed on everything and replaced as leader.

To me, that actually just says a lot about Ireland as a flexible, mature democracy in 2014.

Graces7

SpaceTime wrote: »

Actually, to me it just shows that Ireland's democratic system works.

The politicians tried to do something that was deeply unpopular and thanks to the electoral system which is increasingly being used to its full extent, they're running terrified of losing their seats.

Ireland's PR-STV multi-seat constituency voting system basically creates a situation where parties cannot guarantee being in power and where you've a risk of losing seats in constituencies much more dramatically than in the UK, US or French systems.

The fact that FF remained in power for about 80% of the time in the past just shows that the electorate didn't really comprehend how to use the system or actually liked the way FF did things thus were some kind of sadists.

However, since the 80s and really over the last decade+ that's changed and people are using the system to its full extent.

We don't really need a revolution, we just need to let the TDs know that their jobs are on the line. They know that and that's why they've backtracked so dramatically.

You cannot really push something through in a system like ours if it doesn't have some degree of popular support or at least acceptance and understanding by the public. The austerity measures had to be sold as something that we needed to do and I think a lot of people just put up with them but the water charges were really a bridge too far.

You see really aggressive protesting in countries like France, because you've an executive president who until recently had a 7 year term which gave them huge power that was very unaccountable other than that one election every 7 years. The result of that was the growth of a culture of aggressive protesting to express public opinion.

I think all you're really seeing is Irish people sending a message that they're discontented with the government and the government, if it wants to have a future in politics, will just have to respond to that or face sending out CVs at the next election.

There's also a serious risk that backbenchers, especially in Labour but also in FG will pull the plug. Or that Enda will be handed the Irish Water branding, blamed on everything and replaced as leader.

To me, that actually just says a lot about Ireland as a flexible, mature democracy in 2014.

Really? Water bombs, trapping leaders in cars for hours, attacking leaders car...Infantile more like.,, kids yelling GIMME GIMME GIMME

Zonda999

Graces7 wrote: »

Really? Water bombs, trapping leaders in cars for hours, attacking leaders car...Infantile more like.,, kids yelling GIMME GIMME GIMME

It wasn't just these things though, the government party's thought that there was a significant proportion of the reasonable people who actually voted them in in the first place who were strongly opposed to the charges, however well reasoned they may be.

For the people engaging in the stuff we saw last weekend, they may as well take the opinion that "Well, they weren't going to vote for us anyway"

SpaceTime

Graces7 wrote: »

Really? Water bombs, trapping leaders in cars for hours, attacking leaders car...Infantile more like.,, kids yelling GIMME GIMME GIMME

Well, the current government tried to implement some of the highest water charges in the EU (and probably the world)… they appear to have carried out no feasibility studies on the meter roll out, duplicated bureaucracy, agreed politically unacceptable levels of bonus pay for the new quango, seem to have completely underestimated levels of public discontent about charging... It's a political disaster worthy of Mrs Thatcher during the Poll Tax era when she also lost the ability to read the electorate.

The protests haven't really been violent other than a few stupid incidents. Compared to protests on the continent, these are very polite.

The issue with Joan Burton's car being blocked in just shows that the deputy PM can normally wander around without any serious security because normally she's well-liked.

The problem is she's attached herself to a political disaster that's trying to implement something I doubt many labour voters would have thought she'd stand for.

In general though I think you're just seeing a ground swell of public anger. This happened before with FF too in the bailout period. They're just protests, not riots or anything more agressive.

Little CuChulainn

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

And now Ruth Coppinger thinks Dell should be commandeered by the State. The lack of reason from the Left is mind blowing

She'd completely deluded. She reckons that December 10th could become a national day of strike because some people have told her they'll be taking the day off to protest. Two things about that made me question her sanity. First of all, taking a day off is not striking. Second, an unofficial strike against your employer would not only damage his business but also endanger your job

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well, the current government tried to implement some of the highest water charges in the EU (and probably the world)… they appear to have carried out no feasibility studies on the meter roll out, duplicated bureaucracy, agreed politically unacceptable levels of bonus pay for the new quango, seem to have completely underestimated levels of public discontent about charging... It's a political disaster worthy of Mrs Thatcher during the Poll Tax era when she also lost the ability to read the electorate.

The protests haven't really been violent other than a few stupid incidents. Compared to protests on the continent, these are very polite.

The issue with Joan Burton's car being blocked in just shows that the deputy PM can normally wander around without any serious security because normally she's well-liked.

The problem is she's attached herself to a political disaster that's trying to implement something I doubt many labour voters would have thought she'd stand for.

In general though I think you're just seeing a ground swell of public anger. This happened before with FF too in the bailout period. They're just protests, not riots or anything more agressive.

The problem is not that she attached herself to an unpopular policy, it's that people think they can break the law and also take the law into their own hands to get what they want.

DarkyHughes

Well I'm a Bray native & we have a very revolutionary past. Former IRA Volunteer, IRSP founder & INLA Founder Seamus Costello is from here. He was gunned down by the SAS in 1977. And former Provo gunrunner is also from here, I won't state his family name here for no particular reason but he was awarded some Republican award a few years ago & Gerry Adams handed it to him,

So basically yeah, I'm all up for doing the revolution. Who does Sinead want me to blow away?

DarkyHughes

Zonda999 wrote: »

If you're to look at the comments on the likes of the Journal and the likes, you'd swear people believe they are about to topple the government, which I think is seriously deluded. This government will run its full term until March 2016, and people will have their choice then.

Will SF and the independents make gains, no doubt they will. Will they form a government, no to be honest, I don't think so. They would require FF as a coalition party and that won't happen as far as I can tell. The only even half plausible scenario is some mega coalition of SF and everything to their left, a hard left government. Given the make up of Irelands economy, who thinks that would be a good thing? A governments job as far as I can tell is do its best to keep a country on a sustainable path, and attempt to improve the overall quality of life of its citizens, if possible. Who here can honestly say that they think a hard left government would achieve that?

You sound like a enemy of this revolution. Booooooo off with your head.

DarkyHughes

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

She'd completely deluded. She reckons that December 10th could become a national day of strike because some people have told her they'll be taking the day off to protest. Two things about that made me question her sanity. First of all, taking a day off is not striking. Second, an unofficial strike against your employer would not only damage his business but also endanger your job



The problem is not that she attached herself to an unpopular policy, it's that people think they can break the law and also take the law into their own hands to get what they want.

Your thinking like a counter-revolutionary. A revolution is all about taking power away from the established order & handing it over to the people or a new order. Free your mind, become one with the earth, eat soil.