Joshua J wrote: » Your problem is you think this begins and ends with water charges. I get the feeling I'd be wasting my time explaining to you that it's not about IW but a culmination of years of bad governance. Even in your worst case scenario a general election would be called and you, like everyone else, gets a vote. The sky wouldn't fall in. You could even vote for Enda again. Double the love.
For Forks Sake wrote: » We have failed to agree a programme for government. Fresh elections will be called. In unrelated news, Comrades Murphy and Coppinger have been shot. End Communication.
Mr. Incognito wrote: » Id love to join in but i will be at work and then i have to do my christmas shopping. Fine for some.
Streetwalker wrote: » Rebuilding our democracy is thing to take effort and time. FG/FF and Labour have done great damage to the nation. I am taking some time off work on the 10th along with a few workmates to try and bring about some change for the good of us all. Maybe you could join the effort
smcgiff wrote: » What specific damage have FG/Labour done to the country, what would you have done differently? At the March what will you be specifically agitating for?
Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: » And of course what are the alternative - SF, Independents I presume - going to offer?
Streetwalker wrote: » Further destroyed the health service. Further destroyed education system Hired college fees Didn't lower social welfare rates enough Kept higher paid civil servants in the lifestyle they are used to Drove god knows how many young people from our shores Failed to address the homelessness situation Bent over backwards for multinationals to help them avoid tax Failed to get a decent deal on the bankers gambling debts Engaged in outrageous spin and PR Carried on where FF left off I could go on and on and don't get me even started on the abolition of quangos. Jesus I haven't even mentioned IW. They have been an utter failure also on the jobs front we are still at above 11% of our people unemployed ffs. At the demo I will be calling for an election and the disbandment of the water scam.
Streetwalker wrote: » Didn't lower social welfare rates enough
lufties wrote: » I don't know what you are trying to say there. You mean protest aginst vunerable TD's? What has voting ever achieved?
lufties wrote: » The system needs to change now more than ever. I don't have faith in any political parties, they are all gonna have vested interests to look after along with themselves. I hoped direct democracy would gain some support but it wasn't to be. The current government is only representing wealthy, Ireland has become Ireland inc, people are only pps numbers.
Jawgap wrote: » ......and my sense of the water protests is that they are anything but democratic - what plebiscite was held to select the leaders? Who among them is not self-appointed?
KomradeBishop wrote: » Yes, protesting - a basic exercise of freedom of expression/speech - is undemocratic...
Jawgap wrote: » Try living in a country where there's no voting and see if what they achieve is any better. My point is that vulnerable TDs are more easy to persuade to drop their support from the government (in the hope of being re-elected) - that provokes the desired for election and then we get to see if the whole electorate, rather than those shrieking the loudest, have an appetite for change and what that change might be. We also get to see if the left of left wing personalities can generate the mandate they assert is there. I agree the system needs to change, and when we get an election you get to pay your money to put yourself before your fellow citizens and see if they agree with you. ......and my sense of the water protests is that they are anything but democratic - what plebiscite was held to select the leaders? Who among them is not self-appointed?
Jawgap wrote: » Feel free to quote me out of context there, bud. I was referring to the irony of a 'direct democracy' campaign being led by a self-appointed leadership. Peaceful protesting is indeed a fundamental right - even obligation - my issue is with those who hijack the citizens' right to protest and skew in a direction that suits their own agenda.
Zonda999 wrote: » "Carried on where FF left off" You mean by cutting the deficit? Sure the deficit was only €20.9 billion in 2011. The government tax take in 2011 was €34 billion. Think about that for a second to give you an idea of the kind of position we were in, in 2011. We were taking in €34 billion and spending €55 billion. Enlighten us as to how you would have closed that gap there why don't you?
SpaceTime wrote: » Actually, to me it just shows that Ireland's democratic system works. The politicians tried to do something that was deeply unpopular and thanks to the electoral system which is increasingly being used to its full extent, they're running terrified of losing their seats. Ireland's PR-STV multi-seat constituency voting system basically creates a situation where parties cannot guarantee being in power and where you've a risk of losing seats in constituencies much more dramatically than in the UK, US or French systems. The fact that FF remained in power for about 80% of the time in the past just shows that the electorate didn't really comprehend how to use the system or actually liked the way FF did things thus were some kind of sadists. However, since the 80s and really over the last decade+ that's changed and people are using the system to its full extent. We don't really need a revolution, we just need to let the TDs know that their jobs are on the line. They know that and that's why they've backtracked so dramatically. You cannot really push something through in a system like ours if it doesn't have some degree of popular support or at least acceptance and understanding by the public. The austerity measures had to be sold as something that we needed to do and I think a lot of people just put up with them but the water charges were really a bridge too far. You see really aggressive protesting in countries like France, because you've an executive president who until recently had a 7 year term which gave them huge power that was very unaccountable other than that one election every 7 years. The result of that was the growth of a culture of aggressive protesting to express public opinion. I think all you're really seeing is Irish people sending a message that they're discontented with the government and the government, if it wants to have a future in politics, will just have to respond to that or face sending out CVs at the next election. There's also a serious risk that backbenchers, especially in Labour but also in FG will pull the plug. Or that Enda will be handed the Irish Water branding, blamed on everything and replaced as leader. To me, that actually just says a lot about Ireland as a flexible, mature democracy in 2014.
Graces7 wrote: » Really? Water bombs, trapping leaders in cars for hours, attacking leaders car...Infantile more like.,, kids yelling GIMME GIMME GIMME
Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: » And now Ruth Coppinger thinks Dell should be commandeered by the State. The lack of reason from the Left is mind blowing
SpaceTime wrote: » Well, the current government tried to implement some of the highest water charges in the EU (and probably the world)… they appear to have carried out no feasibility studies on the meter roll out, duplicated bureaucracy, agreed politically unacceptable levels of bonus pay for the new quango, seem to have completely underestimated levels of public discontent about charging... It's a political disaster worthy of Mrs Thatcher during the Poll Tax era when she also lost the ability to read the electorate. The protests haven't really been violent other than a few stupid incidents. Compared to protests on the continent, these are very polite. The issue with Joan Burton's car being blocked in just shows that the deputy PM can normally wander around without any serious security because normally she's well-liked. The problem is she's attached herself to a political disaster that's trying to implement something I doubt many labour voters would have thought she'd stand for. In general though I think you're just seeing a ground swell of public anger. This happened before with FF too in the bailout period. They're just protests, not riots or anything more agressive.
Zonda999 wrote: » If you're to look at the comments on the likes of the Journal and the likes, you'd swear people believe they are about to topple the government, which I think is seriously deluded. This government will run its full term until March 2016, and people will have their choice then. Will SF and the independents make gains, no doubt they will. Will they form a government, no to be honest, I don't think so. They would require FF as a coalition party and that won't happen as far as I can tell. The only even half plausible scenario is some mega coalition of SF and everything to their left, a hard left government. Given the make up of Irelands economy, who thinks that would be a good thing? A governments job as far as I can tell is do its best to keep a country on a sustainable path, and attempt to improve the overall quality of life of its citizens, if possible. Who here can honestly say that they think a hard left government would achieve that?
Little CuChulainn wrote: » She'd completely deluded. She reckons that December 10th could become a national day of strike because some people have told her they'll be taking the day off to protest. Two things about that made me question her sanity. First of all, taking a day off is not striking. Second, an unofficial strike against your employer would not only damage his business but also endanger your job The problem is not that she attached herself to an unpopular policy, it's that people think they can break the law and also take the law into their own hands to get what they want.
