Time for a revolution??

Joshua J

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Throw up a list of the people we can vote for that have never lied, just so we know in advance.

Seems people want it both ways. Put it in your manifesto that water charges will be brought in and then people vote for you but roll out **** like "sure people dont expect parties to keep to manifesto's" or dont put it in then your a liar for not having it there and bringing it in.

How's about rather than accepting lies as part of political reality we demand honesty and accountability. There's nothing more pointless than saying "well yeah they lied but sure they're in now you can vote them out in 18 months. That's it." Once a party loses its mandate it should be game over. Like FG at present.

lufties

Jawgap wrote: »

Peacefully overthrowing the government is called an election - we'll have one in about 18 months, like we had in 2011.

Personally, I think the Dec 10th thing is a waste of time. It fails to fundamentally understand the mentality of the politicians we elect in Ireland.

150,000 people on the streets might look good on the news and worry them but not overly so - however, if 3,000 people turned up at each Labour TD's next constituency clinic it would scare the living sh1te out of them - you'd have an election announced in 3 months as they 'dash for the lifeboats.'

Or if you want to be a bit more 'subtle' look at those Labour TDs who got in on the coat tails of other people's transfers - target their constituencies and I reckon they'd be quick enough to pull their support from Labour and the government and take their chances as an independent.

A revolution is required now. By the time 2016 comes, election campaigns will be underway and the liars and spinners will be out in force to con their way into power.

Jawgap

lufties wrote: »

A revolution is required now. By the time 2016 comes, election campaigns will be underway and the liars and spinners will be out in force to con their way into power.

Why a revolution? Why wreck the place - we'll only end up having to pay for it.

The election process (and to be fair Irish republican democracy) is fairly open here.

Anyone can run, canvass and be elected - likewise people can highlight prospective candidates as liars, spinners, shysters etc.

Then the people decide - and if they send the same shower back then much and all as I think that will demonstrate the collective stupidity of the Irish electorate, an undemocratic revolution is not the answer.

And, yes there is a huge accountability deficit in Ireland - and everyone wants accountability as long as it's for the other guy!

Guy:Incognito

Joshua J wrote: »

How's about rather than accepting lies as part of political reality we demand honesty and accountability. There's nothing more pointless than saying "well yeah they lied but sure they're in now you can vote them out in 18 months. That's it." Once a party loses its mandate it should be game over. Like FG at present.

They didnt lie about water charges though. They said theyd bring them in and did.

Who decides when they dont have a mandate?The mob? How big does the mob have to be ?

Does this swing back and forward on a weekly basis? General election every fortnight is it?

What happens if they have a GE next week and say, SF , get elected and in the reality of running the country it turns out some of their policies arent workable so have to be scrapped? Another GE in January?

What consistutes a lie? Anything you say in an election/put in your manifesto that you dont 100% stick to? No government would ever last beyond a couple o fmonths.

I hope your saving up a nic ebig list of every promise and idea put out by all the opposition so we can scrutinise it in future. You wouldnt want to look hypcritical.

lufties

Jawgap wrote: »

Why a revolution? Why wreck the place - we'll only end up having to pay for it.

The election process (and to be fair Irish republican democracy) is fairly open here.

Anyone can run, canvass and be elected - likewise people can highlight prospective candidates as liars, spinners, shysters etc.

Then the people decide - and if they send the same shower back then much and all as I think that will demonstrate the collective stupidity of the Irish electorate, an undemocratic revolution is not the answer.

And, yes there is a huge accountability deficit in Ireland - and everyone wants accountability as long as it's for the other guy!

Well in fairness, fg/lab spun their way into power a few years ago, and blatantly lied to a vunerable electorate..The current system of gravy train cronyism and corruption has to stop. The political classes need to be taught a lesson or nothing will ever change.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

No worries. Ill meet you at the spire at four. I might be late if theres a queue for the nespresso pods in bts

Save some cars for me to burn.

Pathetic excuse! The new nespresso "boutique" just off Grafton St should reduce the queue in BTs.

Joshua J

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They didnt lie about water charges though. They said theyd bring them in and did.

Who decides when they dont have a mandate?The mob? How big does the mob have to be ?

Does this swing back and forward on a weekly basis? General election every fortnight is it?

What happens if they have a GE next week and say, SF , get elected and in the reality of running the country it turns out some of their policies arent workable so have to be scrapped? Another GE in January?

What consistutes a lie? Anything you say in an election/put in your manifesto that you dont 100% stick to? No government would ever last beyond a couple o fmonths.

I hope your saving up a nic ebig list of every promise and idea put out by all the opposition so we can scrutinise it in future. You wouldnt want to look hypcritical.

You're not being critical at all though. You're arguing for tradition and the system as is. It doesn't work and is not fit for purpose. Who decides you say. Well the people of course and they have spoken recently. Traditionalists don't like it but people are eager for change and want honesty and accountability. FG have gone back on their election promises, simple as. They promised change, a new republic and did nothing but carry on like FF. Now unlike you I have no party favorites. They all live by their word, government or opposition.

smcgiff

Joshua J wrote: »

You're not being critical at all though. You're arguing for tradition and the system as is. It doesn't work and is not fit for purpose. Who decides you say. Well the people of course and they have spoken recently. Traditionalists don't like it but people are eager for change and want honesty and accountability. FG have gone back on their election promises, simple as. They promised change, a new republic and did nothing but carry on like FF. Now unlike you I have no party favorites. They all live by their word, government or opposition.

You want change. But offer no specifics. Would you like a dictator perhaps?

How about no government, something like madmax law. Would that suit?

Anything specific, rather than wishful thinking?

Grayson

lufties wrote: »

A revolution is required now. By the time 2016 comes, election campaigns will be underway and the liars and spinners will be out in force to con their way into power.

have you seen some of the lefties out there? Most are grand but there's that group that believe in some amount of shyte

http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jan2012/sovereign_seal_pr_release_with_images__links.pdf

they have more bull**** per cubic centimetre than most politicians

Guy:Incognito

Joshua J wrote: »

Who decides you say. Well the people of course and they have spoken recently. .

I already asked. How many of "the people" have decided? Is 150,000 out of 4,500,000 at a march , "the people".
Plus they're marching again the water charges, which FG told them before the election would be brought in. So not a lie. Sticking to the manisfesto is what it is.

Jawgap

lufties wrote: »

Well in fairness, fg/lab spun their way into power a few years ago, and blatantly lied to a vunerable electorate..The current system of gravy train cronyism and corruption has to stop. The political classes need to be taught a lesson or nothing will ever change.

I don't disagree with anything you've written.

But the way to teach them a lesson is through the ballot box........and in the mean time if people feel aggrieved, dig out the last of election results - do the maths to identify the vulnerable TDs and hammer them through civil peaceful, protest.

TDs only want one thing and that's re-election and they'll do just about anything to get it. If you identify those TDs in the government parties, esp Labour, who are vulnerable (low first preferences, reliant on transfers etc) and make it plain their continued support for the current government will lead to their electoral ruin because people will campaign against them (not just not vote for them) - watch how that changes their outlook and priorities.

Arbiter of Good Taste

smcgiff wrote: »

You want change. But offer no specifics. Would you like a dictator perhaps?

How about no government, something like madmax law. Would that suit?

Anything specific, rather than wishful thinking?

Funnily, the discussion panel on George Hook yesterday were discussing whether a dictatorship is what we need. In theory, it may not be the worst idea as every political party is only looking to the next election. A dictatorship on the other hand might actually get something done if it was guaranteed a free hand (economically) for, say, 15-20 years.

That's just the theory though....

Grayson

lufties wrote: »

Well in fairness, fg/lab spun their way into power a few years ago, and blatantly lied to a vunerable electorate..The current system of gravy train cronyism and corruption has to stop. The political classes need to be taught a lesson or nothing will ever change.

They didn't spin themselves into power. When did that happen? They were an alternative to FF. And an inanimate carbon rod would have gotten more votes than FF at that point.

Guy:Incognito

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Funnily, the discussion panel on George Hook yesterday were discussing whether a dictatorship is what we need. In theory, it may not be the worst idea as every political party is only looking to the next election. A dictatorship on the other hand might actually get something done if it was guaranteed a free hand (economically) for, say, 15-20 years.

That's just the theory though....

So a democratic dictator that leaves when we want them too?

phater phagan

Will it be televised? If so, I'll watch it then...

The Ghost of Bill Hicks

omega man wrote: »

No.

Come on really? people usually attempt to over throw dictator led, oppressive and non democratic regimes. Yes our political system is far from perfect to say the least and this government have failed to deliver on a number of electoral promises but talk like this is absurd.

The problem is that there is no real alternative to this goverment. We need new ideas, not revolution.

Implementation of new ideas is a revolution.

omega666

So who's going to replace the current government after this revolution has taken place? Who's this magically party that will stamp out cronyism, never make a mistake and never lie to the people? Fianna Fail? Sinn Fein?

Joshua J

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I already asked. How many of "the people" have decided? Is 150,000 out of 4,500,000 at a march , "the people".
Plus they're marching again the water charges, which FG told them before the election would be brought in. So not a lie. Sticking to the manisfesto is what it is.

Your problem is you think this begins and ends with water charges. I get the feeling I'd be wasting my time explaining to you that it's not about IW but a culmination of years of bad governance.

Even in your worst case scenario a general election would be called and you, like everyone else, gets a vote. The sky wouldn't fall in. You could even vote for Enda again. Double the love.

smcgiff

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So a democratic dictator that leaves when we want them too?

Yeah - because that's how it usually works right.

I'd be happy with me as dictator. Not so much anybody else.

Grayson

Joshua J wrote: »

You're not being critical at all though. You're arguing for tradition and the system as is. It doesn't work and is not fit for purpose. Who decides you say. Well the people of course and they have spoken recently. Traditionalists don't like it but people are eager for change and want honesty and accountability. FG have gone back on their election promises, simple as. They promised change, a new republic and did nothing but carry on like FF. Now unlike you I have no party favorites. They all live by their word, government or opposition.

Traditionalists = people who don't like violence and who think the best way of deciding what everyone wants is to actually conduct a poll.

Grayson

smcgiff wrote: »

Yeah - because that's how it usually works right.

I'd be happy with me as dictator. Not so much anybody else.

I think I'd be ok with you as dictator too


(please don't send me to a gulag)

Joshua J

Grayson wrote: »

Traditionalists = people who don't like violence and who think the best way of deciding what everyone wants is to actually conduct a poll.

Traditionalists= People who don't like change and defend the status quo, even to their detriment. Your definition is ridiculous.

lufties

Jawgap wrote: »

I don't disagree with anything you've written.

But the way to teach them a lesson is through the ballot box........and in the mean time if people feel aggrieved, dig out the last of election results - do the maths to identify the vulnerable TDs and hammer them through civil peaceful, protest.

TDs only want one thing and that's re-election and they'll do just about anything to get it. If you identify those TDs in the government parties, esp Labour, who are vulnerable (low first preferences, reliant on transfers etc) and make it plain their continued support for the current government will lead to their electoral ruin because people will campaign against them (not just not vote for them) - watch how that changes their outlook and priorities.

I don't know what you are trying to say there. You mean protest aginst vunerable TD's? What has voting ever achieved? The system needs to change now more than ever. I don't have faith in any political parties, they are all gonna have vested interests to look after along with themselves. I hoped direct democracy would gain some support but it wasn't to be. The current government is only representing wealthy, Ireland has become Ireland inc, people are only pps numbers.

smcgiff

Grayson wrote: »

I think I'd be ok with you as dictator too


(please don't send me to a gulag)

Gulag? Nope, you've just been promoted to Governor of Dublin.

Grayson

Joshua J wrote: »

Traditionalists= People who don't like change and defend the status quo, even to their detriment. Your definition is ridiculous.

no, you said the people had spoken. Well a group of skangers shouting abuse at ministers hardly indicates that "the people" want a revolution.

We have elections where we decide who runs the country. They are the fairest and least violent method of changing governments.

Grayson

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So a democratic dictator that leaves when we want them too?

I just remembered something I'd read. It was Hitler (yep, I've godwinned it). The reason Hitler got to become a dictator was because of a promise like that. Democracy wasn't working in Germany at the time. the nazi line was that Germany needed a strong leader, not a group of ineffectual ones. This strong leader would take charge and make the changes that were needed.
For Hitlers first few years it appeared to work. If we ignore the parts where minorities were persecuted, Germany appeared to be a very successful country between 33 and 38.

Most societies have some kind of myth about a benevolent/wise ruler. We have Fionn Mac Cumhaill. The English had king Arthur. Jews have Solomen etc... Even Plato said that a philosopher king, raised from birth to be just, wise and honest, would be the best leader.

the problem is that real dictators tend not to leave. Stalin, Hitler etc... they all hang around.
Even guys with good motives like Sulla. Sulla actually took the dictatorship to save the Roman republic. Although he remained dictator till he died he did pass loads of laws making the republic stronger and trying to prevent another dictator taking power. He still refused to relinquish power whilst he was alive.

Omackeral

Help!!!! wrote: »

With the protest happening on December 10th at the Dail & reading articles like the following


Would it not be a good idea to over through the present government like they do in other countries? ( Obviously,peaceful like )
I mean there will be thousands already there, so it would be like killing two birds with one stone.
What harm would it do?

Well there'd be two birds dead, for starters.

Omackeral

smcgiff wrote: »

So, you've been successful in your revolution. Enda and Joan are wearing sack cloth and are holed up in Mountjoy. Congratulations.

You're addressing your mighty band of revolutionaries, the cameras are poised, the nation awaits with baited breath on your commands. Destiny awaits and you say/promise ...

You: Abortions for all.
[crowd boos]

You: Very well, no abortions for anyone.
[crowd boos]

You: Hmm... Abortions for some, miniature Irish flags for others.
[crowd cheers and waves miniature flags]

smcgiff

Grayson wrote: »

The reason Hitler got to become a dictator was because of a promise like that.

Not an accurate comparison to Ireland. Can't possibly think of any party waiting in the long grass, offering populist opinions, willing to say anything (even if contradictory to what they've agreed in other jurisdictions) to get power. Nope, can't think of any. And if there were the Irish people, unlike the Germans, are far too clever not to see through such political opportunism. :rolleyes:

For Forks Sake

smcgiff wrote: »

So, you've been successful in your revolution. Enda and Joan are wearing sack cloth and are holed up in Mountjoy. Congratulations.

You're addressing your mighty band of revolutionaries, the cameras are poised, the nation awaits with baited breath on your commands. Destiny awaits and you say/promise ...

We have failed to agree a programme for government. Fresh elections will be called.

In unrelated news, Comrades Murphy and Coppinger have been shot.

End Communication.