IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

gandalf

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The country is a tinderbox waiting to explode. 5 years of pent up anger and rage.

Both sides need to be careful before that match is lit.

Oh please this is just being dramatic. What will happen is we will have a change of Government in 2016. This government is not going to fall before then. Labour will not pull the plug, at the moment they will be obliterated. By hanging on they hope that they can minimise the damage. FG won't pull the plug either and I believe they have had all the defections already. I do see Enda being ousted before the next Election probably by Leo.

shedweller

BoatMad wrote: »

There is a current budget deficit, THAT means , you don't pay enough motor tax, income tax, fire tax or whatever


I mean where have you been in the least 5 years

We WERE though. We were paying enough tax. Then the crash happened (share prices, feck all to do with us in any meaningful sense) and people got let go (or went on the dole)and fecked off to wherever, leaving those left with more tax to pay.
I may actually be better off on the dole myself but i stupidly keep working away and paying a metric ****ton of money to creches(i could buy a small house outright with that alone!), diesel, tax, a plethora of insurances... and all the rest. So this water tax(which has feck all to do with conservation btw) is just another bill i have to pay now. It leaves less money for me to spend on the economy which will suffer just a teensy bit as a result. But thats a lot of teensy bits added together isnt it?
Do our troika lapdogs care? Maybe they do. But the cold steel of the troikas gun barrel is against their heads and has been for a long time and they will not stop and neither will whoever gets voted in after them. Because they are all the same and are sufficiently removed from reality to not give a flying feck about the reality on the ground.

So tax away lads and make sure your cronies have deep pockets because we have generations of mugs in (portakabin) schools right now that will keep you in the lifestyle you are accustomed to for a very long time.

BoatMad

gandalf wrote: »

No I do get it. We are paying for it. The people who have been tasked with running it have not done their jobs. Now some of those very same people are the upper management of Irish Water and the people who will be carrying out these repairs are the same workers who couldn't do the jobs for the councils.

I don't have faith in them to carry out this work with the current setup of IW..

I agree, about IW, its a disaster, But the fact remains that the infrastructure was allowed to collapse as a consequence of the removal of rates and the underfeeding of local authorities for decades, The LPT and water are rates in disguise.

Yes that is an issue. A bigger issue is the whole cost to run the PS. This has not been addressed at all. That is where this Government should have dedicated all their resources. Sort out the cost of running the Government, it benifits by lowering the cost of living, the cost to business and then you can look at widening the tax base and therefore ensure that there is a better tax stream for the country as a whole.

100% agree, the public service is too expensive , over payed and inefficient and is a massive drain on the ordinary average worker. I see no leftie on this message though

Introduce another tax without any real reform is just continuing on the same old bollix that got us in this mess in the first place.

True, but what Giv has the balls to take on the public service. In my view we had a chance during the crash, to massively cut back the sector, but FG, or more importantly Labour completely ducked it and supported their union friends.

If we had a choice I would agree with you 100%. However giving a Private company a complete and utter monopoly over a resource like water would be a recipe for disaster. Couple this with very weak any consumer regulators and we will be paying a hell of a lot more for our water in future if IW was owned privatel

regulations can be changed. Look at the UK, have a look at the bills for water.

Ultimately if you are not prepared to reform the public sector to levels of performance and cost comparable with the best private sector companies, then you will overpay for water.

remember if you privatise water, you can easily create a multiple producer , single network model, my broadband has got better as a result of that model.

Yes but there is no balance at all. No meaningful work has occured on the wastage in the delivery of PS. Now we have a situation where another "HSE" has been created to suck up more of our resources. I disagree with this totally.

unfortunately , waste is the excessive wages in the PS, waste is the gold plated pensions, waste is the poor and inefficient work practices. tackling them is very difficult. IN the meantime , we have to pay to keep the lights on.

I think we are closer on our opinions that you think. I just feel it is time to tackle the costs in running the PS aggressively before we try and pile more taxes onto the squeezed classes. The day of the job for life is over, it is time to push this mantra into the PS.

100%

I agree totally with consumption based taxes. Motor tax should be collected at source by adding a cost to the price of fuel. You could then remove the cost of having a fully populated staff dedicated in it's collection, no more IT systems to refresh, no more software to update and purchase, no more office space to rent.

100%, hence I support the water charges and hate IW.

yipeeeee

My name is URL wrote: »

lol. Do you honestly believe either of them intend or even want to be reelected?



They want their full pensions, and nobody else in either party want to take the helm in such choppy waters.

Ah so its just about their pensions.

I see.

The_Valeyard

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Ahhhh, the ever present dream of the revolutionary. But it never does explode does it ? Maybe its not a tinderbox at all....

Not a revolutionary. Just a centrist with bit of realism. Both sides are entrenched in their positions, with the middle class finally awake to the politic sphere rather than just ballot boxes every four years, there is a real sense of people have finally just had enough. So maybe this tinderbox is slowly smouldering and has been for some time. People are just sick of the same old and feel the need for a radical political overhaul, which does not necessarily mean the far left.

donvito99

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Just a centrist with bit of realism.

I cant read that with a straight face.

The_Valeyard

donvito99 wrote: »

I cant read that with a straight face.

See a doctor.

My name is URL

yipeeeee wrote: »

Ah so its just about their pensions.

I see.

You must have missed the second part of what I said. They can't just walk away now after bringing their parties this far, and with such a shitstorm ongoing.

There's nothing more that some FG TD's would like than for Kenny to be gone, but they're not prepared to push him out if it means that one of them has to sacrifice their political future by taking his place now.

So no, it's not all about pensions. Perhaps just 70-80%

donvito99

The_Valeyard wrote: »

See a doctor.

You call yourself a realist and predict some sort of revolution. That'd be unthinkable and no amount of beleagured water protesters are gonna make that happen.

So my amusement at your assertion requires no medical attention, thanks.

gandalf

BoatMad wrote: »

100%, hence I support the water charges and hate IW.

So you supported an organisation that you agree is tainted and one that has already proven is wasting a very large proportion of the resources that are allocated to it?

Whilst in theory I support consumption based taxes I will not pay money to an organisation that has been set up in a very haphazard fashion, that doesn't value data protection and does waste resources in a fashion worst than the leakage through the pipes it uses to deliver its services.

I also refuse to be double, triple I mean quadruple taxed for a service.

donvito99

My name is URL wrote: »

So no, it's not all about pensions. Perhaps just 70-80%

I do like a bit of faux empiricism.

The_Valeyard

donvito99 wrote: »

You call yourself a realist and predict some sort of revolution. That'd be unthinkable and no amount of beleagured water protesters are gonna make that happen.

So my amusement at your assertion requires no medical attention, thanks.

I believe I said it was possible with so many people on edge. A tipping point could easily be reached as some revolutions do tend to happen by chance and not through long term planning. Democracies that are precieved to be weak or lame ducks can easily be thrown into open revolt.

BoatMad

shedweller wrote: »

We WERE though. We were paying enough tax. Then the crash happened (share prices, feck all to do with us in any meaningful sense) and people got let go (or went on the dole)and fecked off to wherever, leaving those left with more tax to pay.
I may actually be better off on the dole myself but i stupidly keep working away and paying a metric ****ton of money to creches(i could buy a small house outright with that alone!), diesel, tax, a plethora of insurances... and all the rest. So this water tax(which has feck all to do with conservation btw) is just another bill i have to pay now. It leaves less money for me to spend on the economy which will suffer just a teensy bit as a result. But thats a lot of teensy bits added together isnt it?
Do our troika lapdogs care? Maybe they do. But the cold steel of the troikas gun barrel is against their heads and has been for a long time and they will not stop and neither will whoever gets voted in after them. Because they are all the same and are sufficiently removed from reality to not give a flying feck about the reality on the ground.

So tax away lads and make sure your cronies have deep pockets because we have generations of mugs in (portakabin) schools right now that will keep you in the lifestyle you are accustomed to for a very long time.

No we were not paying enough tax. Sucessive FF governments throughout the 90s repealed and reduced taxes. Capital taxes were reduced, income taxes were reduced ben Vat and other consumption taxes were reduced.

This was on the back of a previous FF gov, which removed rates, leaving local authorities with no revenue base and totally dependant on central gov

What then happened is we ran larger and larger budget deficits , what "saved" us , was entry into the euro, suddenly we had access to loads of cheap credit and we spent like no tomorrow,

Then the consumption taxes and especially stamp duty provided a false reality.

Then we had the unfortunate luck to experience a banking credit collapse, banks then couldn't lend, people couldn't buy houses, then developers couldn't sell them and then the house of cards collapsed,

what that revealed was a tax base that couldn't pay to run the country

The troika didn't hold any gun to our head, we held it to our head ourselves. All the troika pointed out was , clearly , the tax base was too small, and therefore we had to widen it. ( or else we weren't getting a cheap bailout money)


stop looking for other people to blame

MouseTail

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Not a revolutionary. Just a centrist with bit of realism. Both sides are entrenched in their positions, with the middle class finally awake to the politic sphere rather than just ballot boxes every four years, there is a real sense of people have finally just had enough. So maybe this tinderbox is slowly smouldering and has been for some time. People are just sick of the same old and feel the need for a radical political overhaul, which does not necessarily mean the far left.

Whatever this is, its not a middle class revolution. The middle class (generally) support broadening the tax base. Takes a bit of pressure off them.

BoatMad

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I believe I said it was possible with so many people on edge. A tipping point could easily be reached as some revolutions do tend to happen by chance and not through long term planning. Democracies that are precieved to be weak or lame ducks can easily be thrown into open revolt.

maybe , but no sign of that here, "paddy" is too comfortable to rock that boat.

donvito99

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I believe I said it was possible with so many people on edge. A tipping point could easily be reached as some revolutions do tend to happen by chance and not through long term planning. Democracies that are precieved to be weak or lame ducks can easily be thrown into open revolt.

I can assure you that if that were to take place it'd be less a simple toppling and more a civil war.

Ace2007

My name is URL wrote: »

So no, it's not all about pensions. Perhaps just 70-80%

There are a hell of a lot better pension schemes out there then what a TD gets, max 20 years service for example, so for example, they get half their final salary if they work 20 years, if they work 40 years - they don't get any more, so there is nothing got to do with pensions as to why they are still in office, Enda/Joan could easily walk away now and still have the same pension as they would if they stayed another 2/3 years (assuming they don't get salary increases).

They also contribute about 6% of their salary to the scheme.

People don't understand how pensions work but like to throw around big numbers to try to get other uneducated people on board.

Principles in schools could be coming out with 40/50k pensions - where is the uproar in that?

BoatMad

gandalf wrote: »

So you supported an organisation that you agree is tainted and one that has already proven is wasting a very large proportion of the resources that are allocated to it?

Whilst in theory I support consumption based taxes I will not pay money to an organisation that has been set up in a very haphazard fashion, that doesn't value data protection and does waste resources in a fashion worst than the leakage through the pipes it uses to deliver its services.

I also refuse to be double, triple I mean quadruple taxed for a service.

No, I support consumption based taxes.

I would much prefer to see IW replaced, in fact Id prefer if it was a fully private multiple producer, common network model, which no infection from county county workers or management,.

nor are being quadruple taxed, you cannot just ring fence the things you'd like your taxes to pay for, taken in total you are not actually paying enough tax.

BoatMad

Ace2007 wrote: »

Principles in schools could be coming out with 40/50k pensions - where is the uproar in that?

or guards, they have pensions that would take contributions of over 1.5 million euros to acquire in the private sector.

darkpagandeath

Jesus people are back on they said that about the USC lark. The revenue were given the right to dip directly into your wages you cannot fight that, That's the only reason it died down. Now fact is they cannot give this semi state body the power of dipping directly into your wages without admitting it's a further tax, And they cannot give it this ability as it will be sold off. Would you like a private company being able to directly dip into your wages via the revenue ?

Tony EH

Tail Docker wrote: »

Varadker winning the "mealy mouthed git" competition on RTE right now. "I fully support the Gardai"..even when they are flinging women across the road onto a bollard...

Wow, Leo got f*cked hard there on 'Primetime'.

I was almost feeling sorry for him.

BoatMad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Jesus people are back on they said that about the USC lark. The revenue were given the right to dip directly into your wages you cannot fight that, That's the only reason it died down. Now fact is they cannot give this semi state body the power of dipping directly into your wages without admitting it's a further tax, And they cannot give it this ability as it will be sold off. Would you like a private company being able to directly dip into your wages via the revenue ?

So what you are saying is that 150,000 or all of ireland or whatever can be cowed by invoking the Revenue Commissioners, wow.

people payed the LPT , when they realised (a) it was needed and (b) it wasn't that expensive. The can't pay wont pay brigade started off full well knowing its was to be Revenue collected. Didn't work out well.

hatrickpatrick

donvito99 wrote: »

They're "robbing Peter" to run the bloody country. If we could all be shown some proof of this enormous country crippling "cronyism" (no anti-IW post would be complete without cronyism) that'd be just great.

€85m spent on consultants. Bonuses for staff who "need improvement". €200k/year for John Tierney, a well connected member of the political elite. Enough said in my view.

hatrickpatrick

yipeeeee wrote: »

Its really not that black and white and you know it.

Elaborate please? My essential proposal is that if you took all the perks, jobs for the boys, bailouts, waste, repayments and golden handshakes afforded to political cronies out of the equation in terms of spending, you'd need far less cuts to important services and far fewer tax hikes / new charges. And that while this cronyism and waste is allowed to continue, it will never be morally justified to heap more and more financial burdens onto ordinary citizens.

BoatMad

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

€85m spent on consultants. Bonuses for staff who "need improvement". €200k/year for John Tierney, a well connected member of the political elite. Enough said in my view.

sound bytes might fool some, IW issues are not John Tierneys pay, they are the bloated pay of all the CC workers transferred on full guarantees, they are the cosy deals with the CC for assets and "service level agreements"

yes the bones of the 80 million actually ended up funding their IT systems, which was a travesty ,

IW IS a travesty. but the CEOs pay is not the issue.

hatrickpatrick

BoatMad wrote: »

em, fundementally, water charge is a tax, forced on the gov by the inability of the tax system to pay for the running of the country. I don't believe " someone high up in the political hierarchy" is in line for millions resulting from the water charges.

Not millions, just €200k per year. Still a lot for people to stomach when they're having to choose between buying enough food for their families or washing their clothes often enough without increasing their water bills.

hatrickpatrick

donvito99 wrote: »

Relative to what, like?

Relative to how much money we actually have to waste on non-essentials.

BoatMad

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Elaborate please? My essential proposal is that if you took all the perks, jobs for the boys, bailouts, waste, repayments and golden handshakes afforded to political cronies out of the equation in terms of spending, you'd need far less cuts to important services and far fewer tax hikes / new charges. And that while this cronyism and waste is allowed to continue, it will never be morally justified to heap more and more financial burdens onto ordinary citizens.

Not in a month of sundays would it come anywhere near dealing with the tax shortfall

look the two biggest spenders are the DoSW and the DOH, most of that money goes on , benefits in the former and pay in the latter.

After that the next biggest item is the pay rates and pensions of ordinary public servants. ( cause there is loads of them, 20,000 alone added from 1995 to 2005 )

Fix these and yes you'd address the shortfall, I see no lefties suggesting nurses pay be cut or council workers get poorer pensions etc, however.

TheBigLebowski

AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »

If that's the case will the taxes that have been paying for it up to now be taken away or will we just be paying double?

It's quite simple. The tax you paid in the past paid for water you used in the past. The water you use in the future will be paid for with water charges in the future.

Tax paid in the past is not going to fund the 300 million or so that is required next year (and every other year after).

If Irish Water falls apart, who will be paying the 300 million next year? It will be disproportionally paid by working people who are getting hammered every week by USC, PAYE, PRSI, etc. I can't understand working people protesting about water charges. They should be in favour of a broadening of the tax base where everybody pays their share fair for what they use. Otherwise, their income tax rates will rise (or are less likely to be reduced at least) and they'll end up paying more in the end because they'll be paying for everybody's water.

I live in hope that the silent majority of working people in this country have the cop on to realise this.

BoatMad

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not millions, just €200k per year. Still a lot for people to stomach when they're having to choose between buying enough food for their families or washing their clothes often enough without increasing their water bills.

fine reduce john Tierneys pay to €1, have you solved the problem of needing billions to fund the water service, have you

look at the facts , forget the vengeance, look at solving the problems. man up to the issues, not look to throw "rocks" at the issue.