Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Wadi14

Girls Girls, I see that now that the submissions are completed and submitted that people have free time on their hands again, so how is it filled, back to bitching again.
I like most people involved in shooting come here for knowledge and information and its a great place for both, but when you see sniping and bitching in posts directed at each other, it doesn't make good reading.

Deaf git

Home reloading could have a useful security benefit for owners of c/f handguns. In the same way security is improved by taking vital bits of a gun and storing in a hidden safe, having your ammo 'broken up' and secured in seperate lots must improve security too. The owner could load his rounds the day before going to the range and minimise the risk of live ammo getting into the wrong hands.
Even if the house was burgled and everything taken the average skanger probably couldn't assemble the ammunition.
So reloading can lower the risk to society.... did anyone raise this in a submission?

Zxthinger

To answer deaf git, that's in no way practical or beneficial. Imagine having such measures forced upon you!.

To answer Cass, I know the DOJ hold all of the cards all of the time and that that as such the Midland's Club had nothing to offer or appease the DOJ.
However it's not beyond the realm of belief that such an scheme or arrangement as that of allowing controlled access to reloading via a secure club setting was a system that the DOJ liked. The midlands then endorsed this de facto arrangement and gave credibility to the pilot scheme which thus far has set the bar, the fact of which can be seen in the working groups proposals.

I suppose though I must still take my hat off to the midlands and applaud their successful outcome and I might be better off attacking those groups that failed to raise their hands when the watering can went around.


To answer Sparks, in fairness I'm frightened to lock horns with you after reading your submissions but if you're obviously so clever (no slur intended) than might you look in to the purorted lacuna which was mentioned in the proposals.
I'm still of the opinion that nothing exists in the law which actually bans reloading or precludes sports men from keeping small amounts of explosives. if you remember back about two years ago, the DOJ published a document or guide to explosives in Ireland. This practical doc laid bare the sime fact that sporting users are entightled to hold limited amounts of explosives with out requiring a register stores etc. Id love to hear your opinions on such issues if you had the time to explore them. I have secured a copy of the DOJ publication and I can email you a copy if you'd like..
Thanks

Cass

Wadi14 wrote: »

........, back to bitching again............. but when you see sniping and bitching in posts directed at each other, it doesn't make good reading.

Not directed a you lad, but after 5 years of the same lies, back biting and insults i'm fed up of it. Every dig, snipe, insult aimed at the NRAI/Midlands for the scheme they run under the control of the DoJ is a personal slap in my face because of the time and effort i've personally invested in it's construction and running. I won't have someone come along and insult and belittle that to further their own agenda when at the end of the day however the reloading issue plays out it'll have absolutely no bearing on them.

I've gotten to the point after years of this s**t that i'm no longer in the mood for giving the diplomatic answers. They've been given before and obviously ignored. So i'll no longer entertain such questions as genuine, but instead an attempt to open a non existent rift. It also speaks volumes, as you said yourself Wadi, to the mindset of some that they think it's fair game to attack one NGB/group and yet call for unity. A fecking joke.

Zxthinger wrote: »

However it's not beyond the realm of belief that such an scheme or arrangement as that of allowing controlled access to reloading via a secure club setting was a system that the DOJ liked. The midlands then endorsed this de facto arrangement and gave credibility to the pilot scheme which thus far has set the bar, the fact of which can be seen in the working groups proposals.

So because the DoJ want reloading done in this manner ONLY, the NRAI/Midlands are at fault for following these rules and guidelines? Seriously. What should they have done? Try to negotiate, and argued that none of the strict conditions imposed are necessary anywhere else in the world? Oh, wait they done that. Give demonstrations before anything was built? Done that. Insist that propellant is useless as anything other than propellant? Done that.

Hell even when they did agree to rules and guidelines to speed up the process they could be changed the next week to some stricter condition and the process delayed. It was over a year from being granted until the first round was loaded on the range.

And while you might be sick listening to this, you're still not hearing me. NO OTHER GROUP WANTED IT. So the NRAI/Midlands went ahead with what they were told to do, in the knowledge that no other group was after reloading. So they were not thinking of any "bar setting", only the end result of reloaded ammo which we needed, and still do, to stay competitive.

At no point did the NRAI/Midlands ask for stricter conditions. We were being overseen by DoJ, AGS, etc. that really had no idea of what they needed to do and so took every precaution, whether it was warranted or not. So out choices were simple. Build it as they want, and abide by how they want it run, or forget the entire exercise. Little short sighted to refuse it after working for years to try and get it.

It's only after the success of the scheme that lads wanted to be part of reloading, and it's only in the last 3-4 years that lads have focused their anger at the NRAI/Midlands, not knowing that they had a chance to apply, but it had already been refused on their behalf, without their knowledge.

I suppose though I must still take my hat off to the midlands and applaud their successful outcome and I might be better off attacking those groups that failed to raise their hands when the watering can went around.

Now you're starting to get the hang of it. Ring or contact the NARGC, NASRPC, ICPSA, or whatever group you might be a member of. Ask why did they not ask you before refusing reloading on your behalf. Also individual submissions were also being accepted at the time. I believe there were a couple, but given what the DoJ made the NRAI/Midlands build how many could have met those conditions. Even a basic bunker hut, cameras, etc. and you're looking at €20K+.

Zxthinger

It was a foregone conclusion that the midlands/NRAI were going to take some flack for endorsing the current system. All the excited justification as to the why,who and how is not going to change that one fact...

However that's really in the past. We now have an opportunity to try and get a internationally comparable system established.

Afaik most stakeholders are not adverse to seeking a wholly comparable international standard in all areas of modern firearms sports.


That were my recent effort went and all my continued efforts will go.

Cass

Zxthinger wrote: »

It was a foregone conclusion that the midlands/NRAI were going to take some flack for endorsing the current system. .

The NRAI/Midlands never had to, and never will be asked to endorse the current method of issuing reloading to people. They endorse it as much as each person with a firearms licenses wholly endorses the current firearms legislation(s). They were granted the scheme under a set or rules. They either took it as it was presented to them, or they did not.

So do me a favour and stop making statement as to what they did or did not do. If you want to know ring them or Joe Costello and ask, instead of guessing.

Grizzly 45

@ Cass.
maybe you can answer this one?What legislation did Midlands have to abide by that required them to literally build above ground bunkers? I cant find it anymore but was it around 2001 the manufacturing of munitions act?? or something simmilar sounding??i cant remember the act or SI anymore,as I had a look and tried to see how far a person could go down the route Xthinger is saying is possible??it isn't the explosive acts of 1875 thats for sure.

Technically you CAN reload here in Ireland and have powder and import it and whatnot.IF you follow the already established SI and legislation...Which unfortuneatly is set up for industrial commercial manufacturing of ammo.Not for home reloaders.And said legislation is shall we say,somwhat difficult and expensive to follow thru and makes perfect sense if you are going to crank out 500k worth of rounds per year,and is absolutely ridicilous if you intend to reload 50 rounds of deer ammo or 1000 shotgun shells a year!!!
The fire cheif wanted a five grand fire alarm in my house for this project...Five grand buys me a decade worths of all the calibers of ammo I need..And thats before all the other industrial strength bull cr£p that would need to be done before I even looked at the reloading equipment.

So please tell me which govt, especially an Irish govt, will change established legislation for a minority intrest group?? A t veryy best I could see a "midlands lite"amendment. Still must be done in a club,still must store powder there,still must reload only your ammo limit on the liscense,still not addressing how to get powder in reasonably,cheaply and in variety and how to tie this into current legislation.But being able to buy the powder and equipment in your local gun store on your gun liscense?? Not unless the entire legislation ia re written.

Deaf git

Zxthinger wrote: »

To answer deaf git, that's in no way practical or beneficial. Imagine having such measures forced upon you!.
s

Really? Having the opportunity to load rounds tailor made to your own gun is neither practical or beneficial for target shooting?
And spending money on reloading gear to produce quality ammo at reduced cost for years to come would be such a terrible thing?
If reloading is neither practical or beneficial why are we now listening to bitching over reloading? Or the lack of reloading? Or who didn't mention reloading?

If my having a 9mm target pistol or tuned .38 revolver was conditional on not keeping whole ammo at home I'd be ok with it. That's me, my opinion. You can have your opinion.
There are other measures we could look at to finally dispel the 'public safety' BS, like leaving the barrel of a pistol at the range and keeping the frame etc at home. You might agree or not.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

@ Cass.
maybe you can answer this one?What legislation did Midlands have to abide by that required them to literally build above ground bunkers?

Been here, done this. You know that there is no current or new law that they had to abide by. They were told to do so by the DoJ, and they done so. Much in the same way the law says i can have a semi auto .308/223 but everyone i know of that has applied for one since the proposals were released has been refused.

One lad actually told me that he knows a dealer that has a semi auto in his shop that was revoked from a lad. Not legal, yet it's happening.

Technically............. .

There is the problem Grizz, and you know it as well as i do if not more so as you put more time into this than i could be bothered with. The law as it is says once you fulfill certain criteria you should be issued a personal "reloading license" (to keep it simple). Try it. See how it goes.

We discussed this not a year ago when you done all the research, and checks. Did you try it since. Did you even test the waters to see what re-action you'd get?

If so please tell, if not you still know which laws apply, which don't and which simply don't exist.


DO NOT confuse anything i've said above as a "our way is the right way". I've said from day one i'd love to have it at home, i'd love to see it for everyone, and at home for everyone. I don't have the authority or power to make that happen. Perhaps had a few more or even all the NGBs put in submissions back when they were being sought the DoJ would have thought to themselves "maybe this can work, and could be a good source of revenue". However when after 3 or 6 months they only had one, they most likely thought "no one really wants this reloading lark, except one crowd. Let them try it, but be ultra careful".


Thoughts?

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Cass;94102954]Been here, done this. You know that there is no current or new law that they had to abide by. They were told to do so by the DoJ, and they done so. Much in the same way the law says i can have a semi auto .308/223 but everyone i know of that has applied for one since the proposals were released has been refused.

Not trying to contradict you Cass,but I'm 1000% sure there is a SI or act that is around 2001 that covers reloading on a commercial basis.I had all the files on my previous PC which crashed and took the whole thing to data Heaven:(
I've been trying to find this legislation and cant for the love of me find it or refer it,but I was told by DOJ that was the current legislation they would only consider reloading under..

One lad actually told me that he knows a dealer that has a semi auto in his shop that was revoked from a lad. Not legal, yet it's happening.

Well, its a bit hard to judge as to why it was revoked from just that.need abit more to form an opinion on the case.

There is the problem Grizz, and you know it as well as i do if not more so as you put more time into this than i could be bothered with. The law as it is says once you fulfill certain criteria you should be issued a personal "reloading license" (to keep it simple). Try it. See how it goes.

FIRST I've ever heard of a personal non commercial,hobbyist reloading liscense here. If there is such,please let me know how that one works and I'll crack on it??

We discussed this not a year ago when you done all the research, and checks. Did you try it since. Did you even test the waters to see what re-action you'd get?

This was two years ago by now...I haven't done anything further with it for the simple reason that;

1]I was told.. You will have to work under this commercial reloading SI act ,that I cant find and was my original question.Thats from Mr Guinane whom you know and was also involved in the Midlands project from the word go.[Note to self contact him for this act DOH!]

2] If this is the legislation currently in force,unless you set up an ammo company, this will be no way in Hell economically viable to anyone.Bar maybe you are an eccentric millionare wanting to reload in Ireland. You are dealing with three bodies your CC,AGS and fire dept. The fire cheif wanted a 3,5k fire alarm in my stone cellar and extra escape routes cut in,as per the act into the walls.Thats even before we got to security and premises modification or buying the first collet set or powder measure...As I said 3.5k buys me all the commercial loads I need for a decade of shooting.

I have relatives that reload in Germany and what they said about it confirms it for me even in a by our standards ,"liberal gun law country:rolleyes:" that unless you are reloading for experimental loads,obscure calibers [as they do for three guns] or tailor making a round to a gun.It positively,asbolutely,never will not save you money!!!That you will save money by reloading your own shotgun ammo or commercial round for deer hunting is an absolute FALLACY When you break it down to cost per round of a reloaded shotgun shell Vs a store bought shotgun shell. Factoring in liscensing courses,powder storage magazines local permits,and then buying the equipment for the three specific reloading setups.Its cheaper to buy four slabs of Rottweil ammo than reload a single shell.

It might,just might pay for itself with a pistol shooter who has such a customised machine that it needs a tailor made round to function 100% reliabely in a match and he is shooting semi pro in matches on the international scene and hasnt got a sponsor to pay for his ammo.If you are shooting at that level you will be knee deep in spent brass on a weekly level to keep in top position.So there it could be possibly justified.


3] Importing the basic raw materials of powder and primers is an utter logistical and beuracratic nightmare into the ROI.Involving HAZMAT shiping by sea ,explosive proof vechicles,trained drivers in HAZMAT transport to get it to place of usage if it is in any particular bulk shipment over 50 kgs[?] If you were to get over this as a dealer you need a seperate storage room away from any residental building ,[say if you have your family home beside or above your gunshop] to store the powder,you cant store it with ready made ammo for some reason.So a big financial risk setting this up as a gun dealer for what questionable return.

DO NOT confuse anything i've said above as a "our way is the right way". I've said from day one i'd love to have it at home, i'd love to see it for everyone, and at home for everyone. I don't have the authority or power to make that happen. Perhaps had a few more or even all the NGBs put in submissions back when they were being sought the DoJ would have thought to themselves "maybe this can work, and could be a good source of revenue". However when after 3 or 6 months they only had one, they most likely thought "no one really wants this reloading lark, except one crowd. Let them try it, but be ultra careful".

Preaching to the converted there.I'd certainly love to see it available too that you could get a cheap LEE hand loader and I could thump out a dozen sub sonic .243 rounds that work in my SASR.This powder is less dangerous than a gallon of petrol stored pretty sloppily in a few car boots out there.
However as it stands and as I see it.

1] There is already est legislation since the early 2000s to deal with manufacturing ammo in Ireland on a COMMERCIAL level,and thats what the PTB will refer you to like it or not at the current minute. It is totally unweildly and impossible and ridicilous for a normal person to actually comply with this unless he wants to set up an ammo reloading company.Or has money to burn.
Until that is taken into consideration by the PTB that we are only using half kilo amounts not hundreds and are making it for personal usage,not commercial
resale this legislation will never change...

It would be easier nowadys to set up a home Potin still and liscense this to make limited runs of your own home booze than actually follow Irelands current SI on reloading.

2] Figure out a way that satisfies AGS/DOJ/DOT on how you will get this HAZMAT into the country ,as per their regulations,cheaply,economically and efficently on a regular basis to supply your dealers and distributors and your customers.You are dealing with people in all 3 depts who know only it is EXPLOSIVE HAZMAT and nothing else and have proably never handled a explosive load like this before,so they will make sure every last I is dotted and T crossed and every shoelace double knotted before your truck rolls onto the ferry in the UK or France.

3] Convince the PTB that in reality this stuff is no more dangerous than petrol and reloading no more dangerous than filling your car petrol tank.Ad that unless you are storing more than 50 kgs of the stuff,building a blast proof cellar in the middle of nowhere is utter over kill.As Sparks said in the hearings.Everything is measurable in this sport.So we could even tell them how much powder you would need to reload your ammo to your liscense limit of already made shells too if they wanted to be that pendantic and worried about "terrorists and criminals" making off with the powder...

Those are in my opinion in broad brush strokes the 3 problems to be sorted out here to make reloading do able here,but there is about another 50 devils in the details I haven't mentioned, or forgotton.

I get the impression the way that bill head is written,that there is an ASSUMPTION by the working group that reloading already is carried out here in the ROI already on a daily basis by shooters and that it must be done under their proposed legislation change in a Midlands like situation and facilities???
If that is the case I'm surprised Mr Guniane didnt dissuade them that this is not the case at all and that there is only the Midlands doing reloading,that there is legislation in place covering reloading and its open for any group to follow the legislation and do like wise,if they have the time and money to do so?

Cass

Is this what you are talking about?

As for the revoked semi auto, i was a bit worried about that myself. So i asked the young lad to find out the specifics. He has yet to get back to me.

Trying to show or convince the BPTB that reloading is safe has already been done. Tests, demonstrations, etc. were all carried out ad nauseam during the entire process, and they still insisted on what you see. The issue, to me, seemed to be lack of understanding, and even when shown, unwillingness to relent on any aspect. IOW better to be overly strict than in any way lenient.

You need to understand that no one is "on our side". IOW no one form the DoJ, AGS, etc. are there to help us or make it easier.

Nekarsulm

It's a misguided fear of any change in the status quo. Guarda see things as black and white, them and us, and there seems to be an undercurrant of fear that at all times armed subversives are going to rise up and challenge their rule of law. In order to nip this threat in the bud, the unspoken objective is to ban all sporting guns. And in the manner of "boiling a frog" they hope to slowly up the heat till owners give up in despair.

Grizzly 45

Sound!! SI 2007[explosives storage order] THATS what you have to work under for this to be legal here.

trying to show or convince the BPTB that reloading is safe has already been done. Tests, demonstrations, etc. were all carried out ad nauseam during the entire process, and they still insisted on what you see. The issue, to me, seemed to be lack of understanding, and even when shown, unwillingness to relent on any aspect. IOW better to be overly strict than in any way lenient.

Add to that "OMG if something goes wrong.I MIGHT be held responsible,and thats not on at all."Attitude displayed by people in power here..
I dont know why they are so worried,after all with all the cack ups in the last decade in this state no one is fired,no one goes to jail,no one is held responsible or accountable and rarely is asked" to consider their position."

You need to understand that no one is "on our side". IOW no one form the DoJ, AGS, etc. are there to help us or make it easier.

Known that for decades my man....:D Would however think that they might have got their details right to prevent themselves not only putting both feet in a bucket of warm and brown matter,but their heads as well.

mrbrianj

In fairness to Midlands, the current rules that govern the control of explosives were not designed for private reloading - and that's what they have to go by.

I Know very little about Midlands reloading programme, but I know business who deal with distress flares and they have to have the concrete bunkers etc. You cant be selective about the application of laws (sorry, WE cant be selective, they apparently can!).

yubabill1

For the record, today in the Indo

"Fears as more guns smuggled here by drugs gangs"

Sparks

From the WDAI facebook page (with permission):

WDAI wrote:

Garda Commissioner Supports Shine a Light on Poaching Campaign.

We are pleased to confirm Garda Commissioner, Nóirin O'Sullivan, has confirmed An Garda Síochána will become a partner in our public awareness campaign, Shine a Light on Poaching, with the inclusion of the Garda crest on our campaign poster. The confirmation is recognition the role the association plays in highlighting this crime and An Garda Síochána commitment to tackling deer poaching in partnership with Wild Deer Association of Ireland members, An Garda Síochána and other state agencies.

The initiative promotes awareness and best practice advice as to what one should do if they suspect a deer poaching incident. The campaign is supported by all the key stakeholders including Coillte Teoranta, the National Parks & Wildlife Service and Countryside Alliance Ireland. The campaign tag line and poster headline is "The unauthorised taking of deer (poaching) is illegal and dangerous!" and has a call to action to take note of all relevant details (vehicle registration, colour, location etc) and contact your local Garda station immediately.

Below is our updated campaign poster, please print and share.

So that's the National Drugs Unit disagreeing with the idea that licenced firearms owners are the source of gun crime problems and saying what we've been saying; the Minister talking in the Dail about a restatement of the Firearms Act like we've been asking for; and now the Commissioner publicly endorsing a programme run by the WDAI with the Garda crest.

Is it me, or does this look to anyone else like a hint at a possible sea change?

Zxthinger

Post deleted..
in the interest of moving ahead..

Chiparus

Sparks wrote: »

From the WDAI facebook page (with permission):


So that's the National Drugs Unit disagreeing with the idea that licenced firearms owners are the source of gun crime problems and saying what we've been saying; the Minister talking in the Dail about a restatement of the Firearms Act like we've been asking for; and now the Commissioner publicly endorsing a programme run by the WDAI with the Garda crest.

Is it me, or does this look to anyone else like a hint at a possible sea change?

No, not really.

Sparks

Chiparus wrote: »

No, not really.

Jaysus lad, alright, leave off, stop going on about it, were you inoculated with a gramophone needle?

Seriously, why don't you think it might be a good sign?

Chiparus

Sparks wrote: »

Jaysus lad, alright, leave off, stop going on about it, were you inoculated with a gramophone needle?

Seriously, why don't you think it might be a good sign?

Gardai endorsing a public anti-crime campaign? Not exactly Sea Change.

Plus given that most poachers are licensed firearm holders it will easily allow them to link firearm owners to general criminal activity.


Perhaps I am just a cynic , but I don't believe these guys can be trusted anymore.

Sparks

Chiparus wrote: »

Gardai endorsing a public anti-crime campaign? Not exactly Sea Change.

Nope.
But the Commissioner of the Gardai giving an official garda endorsement to a campaign run by a community body instead of the NWPS? That's a bit more than nothing. And in combination with the other few bits and pieces, and compared with the kind of slap in the face you'd have seen twenty years ago... well, I'm not buying champagne just yet, but it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, y'know?

Chiparus

Sparks wrote: »

Nope.
But the Commissioner of the Gardai giving an official garda endorsement to a campaign run by a community body instead of the NWPS? That's a bit more than nothing. And in combination with the other few bits and pieces, and compared with the kind of slap in the face you'd have seen twenty years ago... well, I'm not buying champagne just yet, but it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, y'know?

Gardai endorse community based projects very frequently , I am involved in one such project, and we receive no endorsement or support from the government quango that is supposed to be responsible but the guards are on board and provide material support.

Eo1n8wrd

I have to agree with Chiparus on this one.
They do frequently endorse community projects like this probably more to be seen to take an interest, they had a big community watch campaign here recently and the super was quizzed about examples where wrong-doers were handed to them and let off without so much as a slapped arse (not getting into that one).
It is more than nothing but on the other hand (as was pointed out above) it may just hand them hammer to beat us with as it is licenced firearms holders that are causing the problem. It's the public that need to be aware of this issue and what do so the campaign & the poster are great in that sense if it can be published to a wide enough audience. I have already seen it on FB but only because I follow the WDAI page, but the garda endorsement is just a stamp at the end of the day.

Sparks

Yes, but it's a stamp given by the Commissioner at the same time as her predecessor's plans are being attacked by the same group given the stamp (along with others).
The act itself is just nice; it's the timing that's interesting.

Also, if licenced firearms owners are being endorsed by the Gardai as the solution to a problem, it makes it a bit harder for them to say that licenced firearms owners are the cause of the problem. Especially since any poacher caught is violating the conditions of any licence they may or may not have (meaning it's null and void).

Don't go buying champagne yet; but it is a positive thing in context.

Eo1n8wrd

It is nice timing when you look at it that way but I'd be far more enthusiastic about it if I saw the poster & campaign getting decent coverage in the media. I'd still be concerned about all firearms holders being tarnished with the " high powered sniper killed bambi brush" and you guys getting hit with that in the next meeting.

meathstevie

You only need to look across the border, PSNI wildlife crime cooperates quite well with organisations like BASC and so on.

Zxthinger

A double edged sword..maybe...


But aren't the working group's proposals concerned with public safety and not illegally shot deer.

They submitted their proposals, highlighted several shooting incidents, none of which related to a deer poacher nor did they provide any evidence that deer poachers are more likely to be involved in such incidents.

So if it's not part of the alleged problem then it's immaterial or irrelevant. That how I see it..

Tbh I wouldnt read into it too much, eitherway its only a Garda approved stamp which means little (IMO) or it's a ploy to try and beat us down on a point that has little relevance.

Deaf git

Anyone hear HealyRae interviewed on Matt Cooper's show this evening? Just after the 5.30 news?
I buried my head in the steering wheel....
Today FM of course.

Eo1n8wrd

Deaf git wrote: »

Anyone hear HealyRae interviewed on Matt Cooper's show this evening? Just after the 5.30 news?
I buried my head in the steering wheel....
Today FM of course.

wasn't he buried not long ago? :eek:

Nekarsulm

Eo1n8wrd wrote: »

wasn't he buried not long ago? :eek:

It was the son on the radio! Could some of you guys down that way have a word with him about just how unhelpful his comments are.Or give him a slap, which ever you think might sink in better.