Gardai proposals to ban firearms

clivej

The closing paragraph was the only comforting piece from the Irish Examiners report.

"The committee is to visit a shooting range and the ballistics section at Garda HQ before completing its report to the minister, who separately is conducting her own review with public submissions being sought up to the end of this month.

Committee chairman Fine Gael’s David Stanton assured the speakers their views would be fully considered in both forums."

Sparks

Yeah, they've pretty much misrepresented what was said in the rest of that article.

clivej

Morning session
Use the link to below to view

http://youtu.be/F63lUaKnGOc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F63lUaKnGOc

Sparks

Well that saves me trying to stitch together video files

knockon

clivej wrote: »

Morning session

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F63lUaKnGOc

Not working Clive.

clivej

Afternoon session
Use the link to below to view

http://youtu.be/c0woLszM4ts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0woLszM4ts

clivej

Working YouTube links now added to my posts above.

knockon

So now what happens....

Are the committee going to sit again and invite AGS/DOJ back or what?

Grizzly 45

The papers are trying to make this out to be a story,when I think as proably 95% of the pouplation do as well is a non story.If this isnt so, we should be seeing a day given to the anti gun side as well.Seeing that they know about this as long as we have and if there is such an anti gun, anti fieldsports sentiment in the Irish pouplation shouldnt there be at least double the amount of anti gun submissions coming in?
IT and "De paper"[Examiner] are leftie anyway so could you expect much else from them.
Speaking of" De paper",since their last editorial harraumphing about our gun laws and needing tightning up etc,and it being replied to by 98% pro gun comments.;):D.They are proably suffering from disjointed noses and no matter what, wouldnt give us a balanced article if their lives depended on it...

By that I mean,neither paper actually picked up or mentioned on the achivement of Irish shooting sports the world class gallery rifle team which was congratulated by the chairman and comittee and us hosting the Gallery rifle comps in 2017..
Nah,just concentrate on the nasty pistols and assault rifles or semi auto weapons... The fourth estate in Ireland is a joke and most annoying seeing that they are online,at least the printed editions could be put to good use in the WC after reading them.

Sparks

The examiner is kindof out there too - they said Deputy MacLochlainn didn't accept that the word "weapon" shouldn't be used: clive's video above clearly has him accepting it and the chair accepting it: http://youtu.be/c0woLszM4ts?t=1h14m58s

Grizzly 45

knockon wrote: »

So now what happens....

Are the committee going to sit again and invite AGS/DOJ back or what?

They are toddling off to Harbour house to view us in the wild so to speak:p
Then back off up to the AGS gun collection to view all the nasty black assault rifles.[We actually have the advantage on this being viewed first]

Then hopefully pull AGS in for a public roasting...
After that....Who knows...Proably and possibly much moving and smoke and mirrors behind the scenes yet again??

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The papers are trying to make this out to be a story,when I think as proably 95% of the pouplation do as well is a non story.If this isnt so, we should be seeing a day given to the anti gun side as well.Seeing that they know about this as long as we have and if there is such an anti gun, anti fieldsports sentiment in the Irish pouplation shouldnt there be at least double the amount of anti gun submissions coming in?

From what the clerk was saying, the submissions were pretty much all from us. You might see ICABS sending something in, but I don't know if you'd call them.

IT and "De paper"[Examiner] are leftie anyway so could you expect much else from them.

The examiner's actually run some decent stuff on us before though.

They are proably suffering from disjointed noses and no matter what, wouldnt give us a balanced article if their lives depended on it...

What about their livlihoods?
http://www.presscouncil.ie/

I mean, they said a deputy said one thing; we have video from the Dail of him saying something else.
They said we raised the weapons/firearms thing; we didn't; the Chair did and that's on video too.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

They are toddling off to Harbour house to view us in the wild so to speak:p
Then back off up to the AGS gun collection to view all the nasty black assault rifles.[We actually have the advantage on this being viewed first]

And hopefully then on to the Midlands to see what reloading looks like (because one of the proposals specifically deals with reloading).

Then hopefully pull AGS in for a public roasting...

Won't ever happen.
Ever.
The Dail does not go after the AGS as an entity, and there's no way they'd go after the current commissioner for something her predecessor set in motion with the Minister for Justice's predecessor. For obvious enough reasons.

After that....Who knows...Proably and possibly much moving and smoke and mirrors behind the scenes yet again??

Well they can't slap the AGS in public, and because of the changes in the heads on both sides since this mess was kicked off, they probably won't go after anyone individually in public or private either; but going after the proposals is a whole other ball game.

Best case scenario: They reject the proposals as being in need of more work and recommend the FCP consider them. It goes to committee and we don't see it again for a long while, and when we do it's all at the same table, and we get a restatement out of it with the small edits needed to fix things like paintball being illegal, zeroing and target shooting being undefined, and so on; and maybe a moderate edit to bring in centralised licencing. Major rewrites like One Person One Licence are probably beyond our reach right now though.

Grizzly 45

Nice option,but after joint experiances with the broadcasting complaints comission
Multiple attempts with this subject with GSOC ,I get the feeling us gun owners are politically too much hot potatoes or not politically correct and acceptable groupings to pick on.
So I somehow doubt the press council would bother taking us seriously even if we show them this evidence...I'd love to be proven wrong on this and have some faith restored in my disillusionment with Irish over seeing bodies,but I somehow doubt it.

yubabill1

I agree these stories are a non-event.

With 30,000 teachers on strike today and Jose Barroso finally launching his Big Bazooka financial stimulus this afternoon, I can't see too many callers to Joe Duffy on this come 2o'clock.

Nothing in Journal or Indo that I could find.

Unless the farmers get roped in, this is a non-story IMHO.

Cass

The committee have been invited, and are attending some ranges. Grand.

They also intend to visit the Garda Ballistics Dept. Here is my concern. Considering the "expert" that is called into court cases, his department, and his attitude (not to mention his claims about what guns can do, that everything is evil, etc) will there be an opportunity for some or all the people that were at the review yesterday to be in attendance with the committee members?

I/m not sure where i stand on this so please don't comment further until i check, but given what was said to the Garda Ballistics "expert" in court, and if he would rather re-evaluate his evidence or face, well, sanctions, i'm dubious of what nonsense he'll put in the head of the members if no one is there to challenge him or ask questions.

As deputy Mulcahy said "the real experts are sitting in this room now". There should be some sort of shooting representation there when this tour goes ahead. The Chairman, Stanton, asked for further written submission on other points raised that the guests felt needed further explaining. Could this not be requested in such a submission?

I would be all for the "expert" coming to the range visits to keep things fair.

Grizzly 45

[QUOTE=Sparks;93954125

Won't ever happen.
Ever.
The Dail does not go after the AGS as an entity, and there's no way they'd go after the current commissioner for something her predecessor set in motion with the Minister for Justice's predecessor. For obvious enough reasons.[/QUOTE]

Well they can't slap the AGS in public, and because of the changes in the heads on both sides since this mess was kicked off, they probably won't go after anyone individually in public or private either; but going after the proposals is a whole other ball game.[/QUOTE]

Actually I can see at least TWO people being told to consider their positions and opt for early retirement after this ,there is just no way this can be hushed up in its entireity now. AGS opened this Pandoras box themselves and questions will be asked in the Dail about the whole system,I belive Sen Mulcahy raised a question about this in the Senad yesterday during the quick lunch break of 2and a half hours!

Best case scenario: They reject the proposals as being in need of more work and recommend the FCP consider them. It goes to committee and we don't see it again for a long while, and when we do it's all at the same table, and we get a restatement out of it with the small edits needed to fix things like paintball being illegal, zeroing and target shooting being undefined, and so on; and maybe a moderate edit to bring in centralised licencing. Major rewrites like One Person One Licence are probably beyond our reach right now though.

Any of that would be a good start.Just so long as all sides play with a straight deck and no one throws their teddies out of the pram again.As one thing has come out clear to me in this whole last four months and year before.If the Irish shooting organisations co operate with each other,we can punch well above our weight class.This is one thing AGS/DOJ seriously underestimated this time round.Thats one thing I would seriously like the organisations to take away from this whole thing.You dont have to love each other personally ,but we are all in the same boat no matter what.You are right tho,eventually someone will have to bell this cat and rewrite the liscense laws.
The central liscensing is a good idea provided as one person said yesterday morning NO AGS or EX AGS personel are employed!! Otherwise I can see two people who have caused all this trouble in the courts being slipped into comfy civvie jobs and we are back to square one and proably worse off.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Actually I can see at least TWO people being told to consider their positions and opt for early retirement after this

If that's done, and I don't think it will be, it'd be done quietly and a while down the line. If any of us were hoping for some sort of public slaps to wrists, we pretty much ought to put that out of our minds now and focus on what we actually need, which is that the proposals don't go through; and on what we actually want, which is that the law gets fixed properly.

We actually might have a chance of those things happening, however small.

I belive Sen Mulcahy raised a question about this in the Senad yesterday during the quick lunch break of 2and a half hours!

Hasn't shown up in the transcripts yet if so. Might be in written questions, but haven't seen that in yesterdays ones (might be in todays though).

Any of that would be a good start.Just so long as all sides play with a straight deck and no one throws their teddies out of the pram again.

That'd be nice...

As one thing has come out clear to me in this whole last four months and year before.If the Irish shooting organisations co operate with each other,we can punch well above our weight class.

Well, yes, but we knew this already from the last spin round the merry-go-round.

The central liscensing is a good idea provided as one person said yesterday morning NO AGS or EX AGS personel are employed!! Otherwise I can see two people who have caused all this trouble in the courts being slipped into comfy civvie jobs and we are back to square one and proably worse off.

That's always been the weakness in the centralised idea.
If you can get around it by having civilian experts in there, it'd be a great improvement. If - and I'm not naming names, but you probably have the same list in your head that I have in mine - certain people were to be in charge, we might as well give up and go home.

Well. That, or forgo another two or three or five national-level shooting ranges the size of Midlands, 'cos that's what all this is costing us in money and manhours...

Grizzly 45

I dont think said expert can be anywhere near the ballistics dept or near the comittee if he is under investigation by GSOC. He certainly cant give evidence and thats why his understudy was in court last time[He is no better BTW:(] and thats who the comittee will be meeting.

Our advantage is show them at HH as many civillian modern sporting rifles that we can get up there on the day, explain their differences and features and the stories behind them in the court cases and how ,in my case said ballistics expert stated on video and in front of a dozen witnesses two being fellow Gardai of Cheif Super rank and a fellow expert in charge of the FPU how" this rifle was ideal for shooting in Ireland." Or in another case said ballistics expert examined a rifle before a court case in a dealer in Dublin ,like mine and stated "it wasnt a semi auto assault rifle,but a target rifle".Hey,a Garda expert must know his stuff ,right?
Then go off and compare them to FA AKs and M16s and note the differences up in AGS HQ.

duckman!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057366401

Things like this won't help us!!

Sparks

That's in the US, ffs!

SVI40

duckman!! wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057366401

Things like this won't help us!!

We really have to stop comparing what happens in the US, with what happens, or can, happen here. We are so far apart in terms of firearms legislation, that such comparisons might as well be made to aliens from Venus.

knockon

Sparks wrote: »

That's in the US, ffs!

Deputy Finian McGrath from North Dakota:rolleyes: attempted to raise gun control in the United States yesterday also. Why not the Ukraine and Tanzania as well? America is a totally different story when it come to firearms and one we do not want here.

Sparks

And reading that story, some yahoo left his kid alone with a loaded firearm with a round chambered? How the hell is that a comment on our licencing system? That's American child abuse, not Irish law!

Grizzly 45

UNCONFIRMED BREAKING NEWS... TREAT AS SUCH
We were just wondering what AGS next move is,apprently they are rushing in to the comittee next week or so with a further submission on what was said yesterday by the shooting organisations.

UPDATE.
Dont panic just yet.Its not a surprising move,and yesterday was just the opening salvos from our side.We and they will be back and forwards before this comittee for awhile yet.

Sparks

Oh joy.

Cass

IF true, then expect complete and utter denial of everything that was said by our representatives, "facts" to support their previous statements, more scaremongering, etc.

I was talking to a friend yesterday evening about the committee meeting, and i said that if it went as well as it appeared, AGS would be scrambling to try and rubbish what we said and support their previous statements.

Thing is if they do come up with facts then they must be what they said previously otherwise questions will be asked as to why they differ from what they stated before. If they give actual facts then it'' be asked why they could not provide these in the previous 6 - 9 months when asked by the Minister, or by deputies in PQs.

Nekarsulm

yubabill1 wrote: »

I agree these stories are a non-event.

With 30,000 teachers on strike today and Jose Barroso finally launching his Big Bazooka financial stimulus this afternoon, I can't see too many callers to Joe Duffy on this come 2o'clock.

Nothing in Journal or Indo that I could find.

Unless the farmers get roped in, this is a non-story IMHO.

The problem with farmers is, 85% of them have no idea this is happening,
aren't online to any extent (unless to register a calf birth) and the gun is only hauled out a half dozen times a year. IFA any use in this situation?

Sparks

Nekarsulm wrote: »

IFA any use in this situation?

IFA's been told about it by a couple of different people. Haven't seen any response from them so far. (To be fair, they'd hardly have to notify me )

Deaf git

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

UNCONFIRMED BREAKING NEWS... TREAT AS SUCH
We were just wondering what AGS next move is,apprently they are rushing in to the comittee next week or so with a further submission on what was said yesterday by the shooting organisations.

If AGS get a second bite of the cherry then surely the shooters should receive the same opportunity?
My fear would be they cobble together a barrel of horsesh!!te 'security concerns' and state the sources cannot be revealed for even more 'security concerns'.