Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Grizzly 45

50 /90 quid will get you the cheapest of the cheap single or double storage gun cabinet.That's not even a fill of diesel for some modern day tractors...:)

Wadi14

Guys I see a lot mentioned here about the legislation needs to change, your missing the point I think, the powers at be are trying to change the legislation and some of them don't want any of us to have our firearms, it doesn't matter if its a farmer or a Irish international shooter. So don't get caught up in the idea of here is our chance to change the regulations, shooters will represent all of us in front of the Dail committee soon, but they must remember that there are members of that committee who do not want any of us to own a firearm.

yubabill1

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

I put it in my submission that the first level of security be removed and that it mandatory to have a safe.

GH

It's your day in front of the committee, but I would not be offering anything at this stage.
Divide and conquer. The eternal irish failing.
And for once, we seem united.
We are in a stronger position than you think.

Focus on Stanton - take the temperature of the room.

Gov't controls the committee.

Grizzly 45

After reading part of GH's submission..That will be a very moot point in his submission,if not totally forgotten by the time he is done.:cool:

BTW his point is not an attack on any segment of the shooting community,or a concession to the PTB.It is just pointing out an anomaly in the law that if the law enforcers were concerned about firearm security and a certain type of firearm is being stolen from a certain section of the community,why wasnt this legislation tightned up at this particular point ??Is it too much of a hot political potato to go and anger the biggest section of the shooting community and just easier to go after the miniority of "scary looking guns" to prevent some sort of massacre?
Ironic considering two in the big bad world in places that have had massacres [Canada and Oz] and restrictive gun laws.Their recent shootings were comitted with "normal AGS approved" type firearms.:rolleyes:

i wonder also,is this on Wed a total one shot deal for our say ,or will others be called in the following weeks or months to give evidence or people be recalled?Because certainly AGS certainly must be recalled.

Wadi14

We as shooters know exactly what AGS are going after, but the Politian's and non shooters out there think wow this is a great idea, lets get rid of all the guns, and we will have a safe Ireland, we know AGS are only talking about the legally held ones, the Politian's and non shooters don't

Grizzly 45

Yeah a real "safe Ireland" indeed.We have the most restrictive gun laws in the entire EU according to gunpolicy.org.
We are below their 17% pouplation figure of armed citizens.Yet the amount of illegal guns are estimated by that organisation to be around 150 thousand when they last surveyed us.Almost every day we hear of shootings in our society by criminal gangs with illegal arms,so do tell how will "just one more gun law" obeyed only by liscensed gun holders make any Irish citizen one iota safer?

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yeah a real "safe Ireland" indeed.We have the most restrictive gun laws in the entire EU according to gunpolicy.org.
We are below their 17% pouplation figure of armed citizens.Yet the amount of illegal guns are estimated by that organisation to be around 150 thousand when they last surveyed us.Almost every day we hear of shootings in our society by criminal gangs with illegal arms,so do tell how will "just one more gun law" obeyed only by liscensed gun holders make any Irish citizen one iota safer?

It would be interesting to see committee reaction on TV if someone pointed out, what with cyber surveillance and all, that with this report there is a danger of the state increasingly failing to discriminate between ordinary citizens and criminals.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yet the amount of illegal guns are estimated by that organisation to be around 150 thousand when they last surveyed us.

Therein lies the joke. How the hell do they survey illegal firearms? It's a number pulled out their backside. It's along the exact same lines as when in the first meeting on December 17th they said that because they cannot recover the guns in 90% of shooting that they cannot verify if it's a legally held gun or not. It's a clever tactic in that they have shifted the burden of proof from them having to prove their assertion to us trying to prove the falsehood.

yubabill1 wrote: »

It would be interesting to see committee reaction on TV if someone pointed out, what with cyber surveillance and all, that with this report there is a danger of the state increasingly failing to discriminate between ordinary citizens and criminals.

The proof is there. In their stats, comments, etc. I'm really looking for ward to next Wednesday and i'm confident in our representatives to be more than capable of dealing calmly with these issues.

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yeah a real "safe Ireland" indeed.We have the most restrictive gun laws in the entire EU according to gunpolicy.org.
We are below their 17% pouplation figure of armed citizens.Yet the amount of illegal guns are estimated by that organisation to be around 150 thousand when they last surveyed us.Almost every day we hear of shootings in our society by criminal gangs with illegal arms,so do tell how will "just one more gun law" obeyed only by liscensed gun holders make any Irish citizen one iota safer?

With respect, the legal firearms-owners of the Republic of Ireland are NOT 'armed citizens', they are citizens who are permitted to possess a firearm for a legally-recognised reason.

The 'armed citizen' is one who carries a firearm about their person in his or her daily life. In the USA, a person who has a permit to carry a concealed firearm, or, in certain states, openly carry a firearm, is an 'armed citizen', as are those in Northern Ireland who have CCW handguns for self-defence.

Having occasional access to a firearm, as we do, does not meet the criterion of 'armed'.

tac

Grizzly 45

Very true Tac..Just couldn't think of a shorter description than a mouthful; of "privilidged taxpaying units/serfs/somewhat citizens who are allowed grudgingly by the state of Ireland to own firearms.":)

tac foley

'legal firearms license-holders' might do.

tac

Deaf git

We should be considering contingency action plan if the Committee and Minister have already decided to take the Working Group Report as Gospel. Next Wednesday may be a charade, -ticking the boxes of a democratic process and being seen to do so.
I hope I'm wrong.

Grizzly 45

We are all ears Deaf Git.....:)

Deaf git

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

We are all ears Deaf Git.....:)

Best I can come up with is to lie face down on the floor of the Dail kicking and screaming 'I WANT MY GUNS BACK'.

It never worked for me as a kid but might be worth a try.

Gormley85

Just a suggestion but:

AGS dont know if legal firearms were used in killings because the firearm is never recovered.

I think most of these gangland killings are done by short arms and there was never a huge amount of licenced short arms here in the first place..... and then even less would have been robbed.

Surely it wouldnt be a huge issue to compare recovered shells from murder scenes to see if a certain firearm was used twice.

And then compare how many of those legal firarms were robbed.

So suppose we have 9 dead gangsters from 7 seperate .38's but only one legal .38 was robbed. Right off the bat, without recovering a single pistol, we know at least 6 of them were never licenced in the first place.

Grizzly 45

Comes back to I think the fact that our ballistics crowd arent up to this ,but then explain to me the difference between recovering firearms serial numbers or vechicle frame and chassis number plates or machine tools or even computor parts?Do AGS mean to tell us that the national forensics lab are utterly incapable of recovering ANY masked or defaced serial numbers on anything?? Pretty insulting to those people me thinks.

Or is it actually "Garda ballistics" that are incapable of handling this. For those who are intrested the set up is;
The European Network of Forensic Science Institutes [ENFSNI]
Ireland is a member of this via the Forensic Science Laborotory http://www.forensicscience.ie.
address Garda HQ ,Phoenix park.
Intrestingly this dept of Irish forensics is filled with doctors and Garda ballistics is full of diplomas and general science degrees with five day diploma courses.
Maybe the forensics lab should also be asked as to what the procedure is to recover serial numbers here off items recoverd in crime scens or stolen property,and why those methods cant be used for firearms?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Comes back to I think the fact that our ballistics crowd arent up to this

I don't think anyone in the world is up to what Gormley85's suggesting, in fairness. Though they were very quiet about that and the CSI effect in the last meeting. There was much made of ballistic fingerprinting and a national database of these ballistics fingerprints, and not much mention made of how exactly anyone would go about comparing these:



Yet that's what ballistic fingerprinting is. That's why the Maryland police recommended that their system (which kept a library of every licenced firearm in the state) be closed in 2005 because it had run for three years at a cost of $2 million without producing a single piece of useful evidence and it's why the California system, in a laboratory test, failed 68% of the time to pick out the correct match in it's top fifteen guesses, even when you limited the number of pistols it had to choose from to 700-odd instead of several million.

tac foley

Northern Ireland still has the same ballistic fingerprinting for both recovered bullets and cases. Of course, that can only be applied to LEGALLY-owned firearms - the criminals tend not to offer their guns for comparative testing.

'I read a book once, about a place and time where only the police and the military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.

tac

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Comes back to I think the fact that our ballistics crowd arent up to this...

Ah, these are the same experts who produce a man in court who stands up and tells the judge with a completely straight face that 'a .308 rifle can be fired five miles and kill', or am I thinking of somewhere else?

tac

bravestar

tac foley wrote: »

Ah, these are the same experts who produce a man in court who stands up and tells the judge with a completely straight face that 'a .308 rifle can be fired five miles and kill', or am I thinking of somewhere else?

tac

Serious load development right there!

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

?
Ironic considering two in the big bad world in places that have had massacres [Canada and Oz] and restrictive gun laws.Their recent shootings were comitted with "normal AGS approved" type firearms.:rolleyes:

Are you talking about the Edmonton AB massacre on December 14 last year? [legally-owned gun].

Or the Shedden ON gang-on-gang shoot-up in 2006? [illegally owned guns].


tac

Gormley85

Sparks wrote: »

I don't think anyone in the world is up to what Gormley85's suggesting, in fairness. Though they were very quiet about that and the CSI effect in the last meeting. There was much made of ballistic fingerprinting and a national database of these ballistics fingerprints, and not much mention made of how exactly anyone would go about comparing these:



Yet that's what ballistic fingerprinting is. That's why the Maryland police recommended that their system (which kept a library of every licenced firearm in the state) be closed in 2005 because it had run for three years at a cost of $2 million without producing a single piece of useful evidence and it's why the California system, in a laboratory test, failed 68% of the time to pick out the correct match in it's top fifteen guesses, even when you limited the number of pistols it had to choose from to 700-odd instead of several million.

Im not talking about taking bullets out of bodies. Im talking about when a gangster walks into a pub and executes a rival (and presuming hes not using a revolver) he will most likely leave the empty shells behind. At the back of which will say e.g. 9mm

Then its a case of looking at the indent that the firing pin left.

Wait for the next execution with a 9mm and compare the indentations to see if the same pistol shows up more than once

Then compare the amount of 9mm stolen and the amount that have been used in executions.

And Im sure with some cctv/witness statements you could possibly narrow it down further.... eg nice shiny chrome pistol probably isnt the glock17 that was robbed 6 months earlier from a nearby housing estate.

Im not saying any of this is foolproof, I mean people will argue that a gangster could replace the firing pin, or they could take the glock and duracoat it etc. But sure you could say the same thing: dont even bother dusting crime scene for prints anymore because gangsters could just wear gloves. You just do it and hope you get lucky.

Grizzly 45

Nope that was a ex army officer and military/ security expert for our national media . However our ballistics officer did state in court that he believes that barrel size or shape or length has no influence on range or accruacy!!!
Intresting concept.

Grizzly 45

Hmmm they could also throw into the failed equation of keeping ballistic shells. Germany tried it in the 1970s as well and dumped the idea too.It ran to several million deutsche mark and a few millon shells before some bright spark realised that the extractor, firing pin,ejector ,breech face and mag could all be changed or altered and that could negate all the evidence of the barrel ballistics.

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

Are you talking about the Edmonton AB massacre on December 14 last year? [legally-owned gun].

Or the Shedden ON gang-on-gang shoot-up in 2006? [illegally owned guns].


tac

Nope the Ottowa parliament shooting last year and the Sydney cafe shooting
30 30 hunting rifle and a double barrel shotgun
and im using the media terminology of "massacre"

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope the Ottowa parliament shooting last year and the Sydney cafe shooting
30 30 hunting rifle and a double barrel shotgun
and im using the media terminology of "massacre"

Might as well throw in Derrick Bird - .22LR and D/B shotgun.

wexfordman2

I wonder if any of the ags speakers were asked a simple question what would be the answer


"With the banning of these firearms, what level of reduction in firearms related crime are you expecting and will you commit to a reduction in crime levels as a result of these new restrictions being implemented ?"


I.e, put your money where your mouth is garda

yubabill1

Now, here's a nice summary from the PQ thread 15 Jan:

"Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Following public safety concerns raised by An Garda Síochána about specific categories of firearms, a joint Department and Garda Síochána working group was established to examine this issue in October 2013. Its report was published on 13 November.

The report outlined the views expressed by An Garda Síochána that centre-fire handguns are primarily designed to kill human beings. Accordingly, they pose an unacceptable risk to society and should no longer be licensed in this jurisdiction."

Homework: Learn this off by heart -

**** ALL firearms are lethal ****

Remember Shatter citing a UK death involving an airgun to justify their continuing classification as a firearm last year?

Remember the 1994 death of the actor Brandon Lee, by putting a blank firing handgun to his head and pulling the trigger?

You can take almost anything that swims, flies, walks or crawls in these islands with a 22LR with a well-placed shot, out to 40 yards or so.

Sparks

Gormley85 wrote: »

Im not talking about taking bullets out of bodies. Im talking about when a gangster walks into a pub and executes a rival (and presuming hes not using a revolver) he will most likely leave the empty shells behind. At the back of which will say e.g. 9mm

Then its a case of looking at the indent that the firing pin left.

I'm afraid that those cases are just as bad.
Meet Mr.Metal File:



One stroke of one of these and the firing pin indents no longer match. You don't even need to replace them. (That's why microstamping is also the kind of thing that just doesn't work if a criminal wants to not be caught after murdering someone).

I'd be interested in learning if normal wear and tear have the same effect - leaving a pistol bought a few years earlier whose owner left sample bullets and casings with the Phoenix Park now owning a pistol that no longer matched that ballistic fingerprint despite a total lack of malicious intent.



All that being said, I'd happily pay the fifty quid or so that it'd cost to store my firearm's details in some central Ballistics library if it would only put an end to this nonsense about are-they-aren't-they-oooooooh-its-scary licenced pistols being used in crime.

Deaf git

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope that was a ex army officer and military/ security expert for our national media . However our ballistics officer did state in court that he believes that barrel size or shape or length has no influence on range or accruacy!!!
Intresting concept.

Reminds me of that guy who enrolled his ginger moggie in the same college as Gillian McKeith some years back. The cat was equally qualified to be a dietary advisor after only a few weeks, even if the cat was in fact deceased and a cat.
Eperts.....where would we be without them.