Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

mirrorwall14

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Ok so back to swapping papers between school a and b...

That iodine answer doesn't make sense because all they would need is to issue every teacher with a marking scheme.

Accept the following answers....

Do not accept these answers.....

Addressing your first point:
Except that a marking scheme alone has never been deemed sufficient to correct a state exam. There is a marking conference which all correctors must attend where every single line of the marking scheme is gone through to determine exactly what is and isn't acceptable.

And exactly how does "Accept the following answers" work in a subjective exam such as languages?

aunt aggie

This may be a silly comment and I hope someone will correct me if it is...

AS FAR AS I KNOW there is no information on what form this continuous assessment will take or who will set it. It could be set by teachers or it could be a general assignment which could be interpreted in different ways by different students/teachers. Both scenarios mean that a national marking scheme is impossible.

For example, in history
Choose a figure from this period. Research and discuss his/her social and/or political impact. (You could literally get an essay on anything from Barbie to Caesar!!)

The whole point of continuous assessment projects is that students are working independently and they should choose a focus that is suitable to their level and interests. Many teachers incorporate similar tasks already but its a form of assessment to improve students understanding and progress their learning. Its very difficult to mark consistently. In fact, I have seen two different teachers interpret a department wide statistics task completely differently. One put the emphasis on asking a range of questions and displaying data on different graphs. Another focused students on averages and comparing results that way. Which project would have more merit if assessed for examination?

Actually has anyone experience of marking coursework which is currently part of the LC? What controls are in place to ensure consistent marking? Is it the same as for exam papers?

seavill

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Do schools have a legal out from the normal equality at work legislation?
Yes they do!
Whether they use it is irrelevant!

This has got nothing to do with the topic or the strike. Start a new thread stop dragging this one off topic

seavill

I was listening to jan on Mat cooper followed by Union , students Union , parents Union and of course that gob****e Walsh.

She and others kept saying how it was an opportunity for the teacher to work closely with their students and give them real feedback.
I was so annoyed she wasn't pulled up on this. I give my students feedback every day to improve their work.
Do they think we don't do this already?? Stupid stuff

eyescreamcone

seavill wrote: »

This has got nothing to do with the topic or the strike. Start a new thread stop dragging this one off topic

It's relevant because the teachers are only pretending to fight from the moral high ground. When really it's all about the money, and the public are well aware of this

Chancer3001

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Addressing your first point:
Except that a marking scheme alone has never been deemed sufficient to correct a state exam. There is a marking conference which all correctors must attend where every single line of the marking scheme is gone through to determine exactly what is and isn't acceptable.

And exactly how does "Accept the following answers" work in a subjective exam such as languages?

That doesn't explain anything.

A subjective exam is exactly that, subjective. So give some guidelines and then leave the rest to the correcting teacher to decide

eyescreamcone

amacca wrote: »

It would be nice if they had to under the conditions that currently exist…..I have a feeling they just might change their mind.

Most people would jump at the chance to be a permanent unsackable teacher with a gold star pension - all paid for by those less well off in the private sector.

Teachers deserve zero sympathy for their imagined grievances.

MacGyver007

km79 wrote: »

who will be responsible for transport of papers from school A to school B?
what happens if a paper goes missing during transportation?
who pays for cost of transportation if schools are miles apart for example in Donegal ?
It really really gets on my nerves when people come in with this statements about how they would do things so easily without ANY thought whatsoever put into it.
Everyone knows better than the people who actually do the job !!!!
I've said it before I'll say it again .......do people go onto other professions forums telling them how badly they do their job and what a simple job it is really......or is it just this one ?

Well said.

spurious

eyescreamcone banned for a week for breach of forum charter.

rainbowtrout

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Ok so back to swapping papers between school a and b...

That iodine answer doesn't make sense because all they would need is to issue every teacher with a marking scheme.

Accept the following answers....

Do not accept these answers.....


As for the transport costs etc....don't you realise those transport costs are already paid by the state?

A rural school in Donegal for example, their papers are all packaged up and sent off to wherever to be corrected.

It'd cost less to transport them to the next school over.

And who's responsible if it's lost? I assume the same person who is responsible if a paper gets lost at the moment!

It might actually sound that simple, but it's not. Because let's say you have someone setting the paper at the Dept and the marking scheme and it's sent out to schools. That's one person's interpretation of the paper, another teacher and students will come up with alternative answers. Some will be valid.

So say you take my simple question again about iodine and it's written in the marking scheme that the four answers I've given are acceptable and then you come across a paper where the student writes 'navy'. Do you accept it? It's not in the scheme, so that would mean no, but navy is pretty much blue - black and also a far better description of the actual colour of the iodine than purple, so some would say yes, and I can guarantee you, that no matter how many answers you think of for the scheme and more can be added at the conference and agreed upon, you will still see more valid answers that no one thought of once they start correcting. This is where the role of advisors come in where a ruling can be made but also all correctors can be notified of changes.

implausible

The multiple interpretations of exam questions are irrelevant as the DES proposals are to still have the SEC mark the final exam.

What is relevant is how you can have a consistent marking scheme across the country for project work and coursework. I know LC History examiners mark the students' project, so there are obviously guidelines for it. How the DES is going to roll out nationwide training to teachers who have to do this that's as good as a marking conference delivered to those who do it for pay is beyond me. They really haven't thought it through.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

The multiple interpretations of exam questions are irrelevant as the DES proposals are to still have the SEC mark the final exam.

What is relevant is how you can have a consistent marking scheme across the country for project work and coursework. I know LC History examiners mark the students' project, so there are obviously guidelines for it. How the DES is going to roll out nationwide training to teachers who have to do this that's as good as a marking conference delivered to those who do it for pay is beyond me. They really haven't thought it through.

To be honest, you're just splitting hairs. It's a similar process and provided as an example of why it's not so simple as just getting teachers to mark their own students and it will all be grand.

I could have made the same point but used JC Science Coursework B as the example and it would have amounted to the same thing.

acequion

Having to tolerate the antipathy of the ignorant on the evening of a strike when emotions are running high is very hard to take,especially when much milder non teacher posters have agreed to sit out this thread.

However,while this strike has nothing whatsoever to do with teacher pay,let's not pretend that it has nothing to do with job conditions.Personally I am striking firstly to preserve the integrity that 100% assessment brings to an exam result. But secondly because the extra work the minister's plan entails is excessive and teachers are already maxed out as it is. Even if some people have the constitution of a trojan horse and are willing to work around the clock,the demands on teachers are reaching a level at which effective work will no longer be possible. It will be quantity over quality and will lead to bad feeling,high stress and burn out.

So,all this rubbish about swapping schools is a non runner for me,even more so than marking my own. Let's not forget that all this is yet another bad mistake by a bad Government, as obsessed with saving money as the last crowd were with spending it. I'm heartily sick of the constant hits and digging my heels in further!

implausible

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be honest, you're just splitting hairs. It's a similar process and provided as an example of why it's not so simple as just getting teachers to mark their own students and it will all be grand.

I could have made the same point but used JC Science Coursework B as the example and it would have amounted to the same thing.

Not splitting hairs, just pointing out that it's not exam work that we could be correcting.

How does the marking currently work for the coursework? Is there a set structure to it and you mark each heading?

I know how indepth the marking conferences go, to me it seems impossible that an inservice delivered to all teachers of a subject can even approach that, unless the coursework is very prescriptive i.e. a short story of a particular length about a particular theme or an analysis of a poem with set headings and criteria to use. It will be a logistical nightmare and they have not thought it through.

In England they have moderation meetings between schools, there is no way we can give any more time, never mind to something as unwelcome as this.

Any talks that come out of this strike will have to provide answers to these concerns, answers which I don't think the DES has.

mirrorwall14

Well actually in both my subjects we have no idea what the 40% will consist of so it could well be exam work?

Beaner1

Come on now. This is a useless state exam that is getting relegated to something of far less importance mainly to save a bit of money. Teachers are striking because the saved money is coming out of their pockets as they would typically be paid for marking these exams.

spurious

Beaner1 wrote: »

Come on now. This is a useless state exam that is getting relegated to something of far less importance mainly to save a bit of money. Teachers are striking because the saved money is coming out of their pockets as they would typically be paid for marking these exams.

Remarkable how a couple of hundred teachers (those involved in marking exams) got the whole cohort to strike.

Teacher-bashing nonsense not welcome here, thanks. Please read the forum charter.

amacca

implausible wrote: »

Any talks that come out of this strike will have to provide answers to these concerns, answers which I don't think the DES has.

Thats what it seems like to me (as poorly thought out as recent "reforms")…but are they really that clueless?

Even if you look at it purely through a saving money lens it doesn't seem to make a hell of a lot of sense (could end up costing more money in the long run imo)

seavill

implausible wrote: »

Not splitting hairs, just pointing out that it's not exam work that we could be correcting.

How does the marking currently work for the coursework? Is there a set structure to it and you mark each heading?

I know how indepth the marking conferences go, to me it seems impossible that an inservice delivered to all teachers of a subject can even approach that, unless the coursework is very prescriptive i.e. a short story of a particular length about a particular theme or an analysis of a poem with set headings and criteria to use. It will be a logistical nightmare and they have not thought it through.

In England they have moderation meetings between schools, there is no way we can give any more time, never mind to something as unwelcome as this.

Any talks that come out of this strike will have to provide answers to these concerns, answers which I don't think the DES has.

I currently correct my own Construction Studies class (as do all other teachers) leaving cert project work 25% overall including the booklet and the artefact itself.
Then an external assessor comes in and checks the grades (however we are never told if our marks are right or wrong but thats a whole other thread)

Anyway back on point, We used to have a sheet to mark with 5 sections 30 marks each. Each of the 5 sections has 3 subsections, however its up to me how I split up the 30 marks between the 3 subsections, I know myself and the teacher I replaced never agreed on how the 30 marks for each should be split, he would say 10,10,10 I would say 8 12 10, for example.

However last year therer was a departure from the norm for othe last 30 years (without telling us) and they just sent out one master sheet with the 5 headings on it with no subsections, so some poor teacher just out of college woudln't know how the marks used to be broken down, now we just have 5 headings worth 30 each. Now 30 marks is a massive number to split over 3 words. For example, one might be Design & Planning. 30 marks. How do I split that compare to you? One lad made a coffee table, another made a cardboard model of a house, can I split the 30 a different way can, who knows.
By the way we have never been given any direction or training on how to grade the projects (not even in college).
The only way I would know is to break into the very small group of people that do it every year (that have a massive advantage over the rest of us poor plebs but again thats another thread)

Now my issue is if this is the way we are going with a state exam for the Leaving Cert, just imagine the shambles the JC will be.

How can there be any standards in the LC Construction marking (there cannnot) now apply it to the "doesn't matter anymore" JC

implausible

amacca wrote: »

Thats what it seems like to me (as poorly thought out as recent "reforms")…but are they really that clueless?

Even if you look at it purely through a saving money lens it doesn't seem to make a hell of a lot of sense (could end up costing more money in the long run imo)

I don't know. They rolled out the new English curriculum without it being ready. They gave no info on assessment because they didn't have it, questions about recording oral assessments were met with blank stares as it clearly hadn't been thought out. Info on assessment was put on the website and was very vague (I presume it will be the basis of another inservice day after we've started teaching it.) If my planning was that shoddy, I wouldn't last a week and an inspector would have a field day.

man_no_plan

implausible wrote: »

Not splitting hairs, just pointing out that it's not exam work that we could be correcting.

How does the marking currently work for the coursework? Is there a set structure to it and you mark each heading?

I know how indepth the marking conferences go, to me it seems impossible that an inservice delivered to all teachers of a subject can even approach that, unless the coursework is very prescriptive i.e. a short story of a particular length about a particular theme or an analysis of a poem with set headings and criteria to use. It will be a logistical nightmare and they have not thought it through.

In England they have moderation meetings between schools, there is no way we can give any more time, never mind to something as unwelcome as this.

Any talks that come out of this strike will have to provide answers to these concerns, answers which I don't think the DES has.

Rurai Quinn was more concerned with generic uniforms and running the religious out of schools than with education. His advisors are most likely still in the DES and are advising the minister poorly because this was their baby.

An honest discussion needs to happen in the DES. For right or for wrong teachers are doing work that was once the work of post holders, doing mandatory additional hours and a host of initiatives like SSE, literary and numeracy etc.

There is only so much capacity in the system. Dumbing down teaching to make room for project work is not good for anybody. Loading schools and teachers beyond what they can cope with is not acceptable.

Jamfa

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Well actually in both my subjects we have no idea what the 40% will consist of so it could well be exam work?

The details for the 40% in English are available and something similar is to happen in each other subject. Remember the new JC is being phased in over the next 8 years. There are to be two school based assessnents that take place towards the end of 2nd year & Christmas of 3rd. In English 15% goes for an oral communication task which is to last 3 mins & there is a marking grid, features of quality & inservice provided. The other 25% is for a collection of written texts like a portfolio to be completed over the course of 2nd year & up to Christmas of 3rd year. I think the idea is to get away from assessing English only by timed written exams. In school moderation is to take place & a selection up to 15% will be externally assessed. I think this is what is now proposed.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

I don't know. They rolled out the new English curriculum without it being ready. They gave no info on assessment because they didn't have it, questions about recording oral assessments were met with blank stares as it clearly hadn't been thought out. Info on assessment was put on the website and was very vague (I presume it will be the basis of another inservice day after we've started teaching it.) If my planning was that shoddy, I wouldn't last a week and an inspector would have a field day.

Very true. Science is the same. They are doing the consultation now. What kind of preparation is that for a (rubbish) syllabus that is supposed to be taught next September?

In contrast, a few of the mandatory experiments were removed from the Chemistry syllabus as the chemicals used in them are now banned. The change was made in Sept 13 to be examined in 2015. The normal 2 years notice for a change in four experiments.

But the content of an entire syllabus and how it is to be assessed is only in the consultation stage now???? Shows how much regard there is for the Junior Cert.

Further to that, there are plans to update the LC Physics, Chemistry and Biology syllabi. The consultation for them was in 2011 or 2012, I can't remember which. To the best of my knowledge the updated syllabi won't be introduced until about 2017.

Consultation has begun for Applied Maths and Agricultural Science - both with syllabi more than 40 years old (1969 in the case of Ag Science). It's highly unlikely these updated syllabi will be introduced until the Physics, Chemistry and Biology are.

So why is it acceptable to just rush through a consultation and have the syllabus introduced within the year at Junior Cert level?

seavill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Very true. Science is the same. They are doing the consultation now. What kind of preparation is that for a (rubbish) syllabus that is supposed to be taught next September?

In contrast, a few of the mandatory experiments were removed from the Chemistry syllabus as the chemicals used in them are now banned. The change was made in Sept 13 to be examined in 2015. The normal 2 years notice for a change in four experiments.

But the content of an entire syllabus and how it is to be assessed is only in the consultation stage now???? Shows how much regard there is for the Junior Cert.

Further to that, there are plans to update the LC Physics, Chemistry and Biology syllabi. The consultation for them was in 2011 or 2012, I can't remember which. To the best of my knowledge the updated syllabi won't be introduced until about 2017.

Consultation has begun for Applied Maths and Agricultural Science - both with syllabi more than 40 years old (1969 in the case of Ag Science). It's highly unlikely these updated syllabi will be introduced until the Physics, Chemistry and Biology are.

So why is it acceptable to just rush through a consultation and have the syllabus introduced within the year at Junior Cert level?

Just to add to that the new Leaving cert Architectural Technology Course (now Construction Studies) spent a few years being written and was completed ready to go in 2005 or 2006. It still has not been implemented (the current course was introduced in 1984, 30 years ago) and we all know how far and how modern the construction industry has become in the last 10 years never mind 30 years.

rainbowtrout

seavill wrote: »

Just to add to that the new Leaving cert Architectural Technology Course (now Construction Studies) spent a few years being written and was completed ready to go in 2005 or 2006. It still has not been implemented (the current course was introduced in 1984, 30 years ago) and we all know how far and how modern the construction industry has become in the last 10 years never mind 30 years.

Yep, I remember hearing the new name for Construction a few years ago and then it never happened. A syllabus was written for Ag Science in 1996. No doubt it is gathering dust somewhere in the DES.

man_no_plan

Jamfa wrote: »

The details for the 40% in English are available and something similar is to happen in each other subject. Remember the new JC is being phased in over the next 8 years. There are to be two school based assessnents that take place towards the end of 2nd year & Christmas of 3rd. In English 15% goes for an oral communication task which is to last 3 mins & there is a marking grid, features of quality & inservice provided. The other 25% is for a collection of written texts like a portfolio to be completed over the course of 2nd year & up to Christmas of 3rd year. I think the idea is to get away from assessing English only by timed written exams. In school moderation is to take place & a selection up to 15% will be externally assessed. I think this is what is now proposed.

The idea is fine. But record the oral presentation and fire it off to Athlone for marking.

Scenario for one subject, lets say English. 120 in the year group, keep it handy 4x 30 classes.

15% will be moderated. In a class of 30 4-5 will be externally verified or is it 18/120 which could possibly come from the same class! Some teachers may be missed (go on tell us moderation will take care of that).

15% of grades will be moderated...
120 x 10 subjects is 1200 results, oh wait, two pieces of coursework 2400 individual grades.
360 individual pieces will be moderated, 2000 never get a second look.

Is it 15% of grades?
15% of each subject?
15% of each class?

Or do they moderate all second year science, plus third year English (240) and a bit of woodwork and some geography this year to give 360 and say that they've moderated 15%.

Its not practical to do it any other way. The devil will be in the detail. There I no detail. This is make it up as you go along stuff.

AND

what if the external moderation finds errors? Who re-marks the work?

If there is an appeal of a grade who do you appeal to? The teacher? The school? The sec? Is there a fee? Who marks appeals? I'm sitting here thinking of this, if we were all to get together we could come up with a huge list if errors in the proposals.

Until these issues are addressed the handbrake stays on.

rainbowtrout

man_no_plan wrote: »

The idea is fine. But record the oral presentation and fire it off to Athlone for marking.

Yep, this already happens at LC level with LCVP. The portfolio consists of 6 items chosen out of a list of 8, 7 of the options are typed and the 8th is a recorded interview. We do the interview option in my school. The interviews are put on CDs and packed off with the rest of the portfolios to Athlone with the written exams and the examiner who corrects the exam also corrects the students portfolio. I can't honestly see why this can't be an option for the various JC subjects.

Jamfa

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, this already happens at LC level with LCVP. The portfolio consists of 6 items chosen out of a list of 8, 7 of the options are typed and the 8th is a recorded interview. We do the interview option in my school. The interviews are put on CDs and packed off with the rest of the portfolios to Athlone with the written exams and the examiner who corrects the exam also corrects the students portfolio. I can't honestly see why this can't be an option for the various JC subjects.

Good point to stress that teachers are happy to be involved in the assessment process such as LCVP but the SEC should give an impartial grade which is combined with the written exam. This is much more positive image of what we do than the idea that we never assess our students.

History Queen

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Most people would jump at the chance to be a permanent unsackable teacher with a gold star pension - all paid for by those less well off in the private sector.

Teachers deserve zero sympathy for their imagined grievances.

I have some feedback for you regarding your negative comments on this thread:

First of all you don't understand the job that a teacher does.

Secondly you are spouting your opinion as fact.

Thirdly, I am a teacher, currently subbing, so I am not permanent, can loose my job and certainly do not have a gold starred pension. There are hundreds like me in schools up and down the country. I have friends and family in the private sector much better off than me.

I picketed today. Not for job security, not better working conditions and not for better pay. I picketed because I believe that the current JC proposals are a threat to the education of my current and future students. I also believe that should they go ahead I, as a teacher, will not be properly trained or resourced to implement them. I believe there will be a race to the bottom as regards people trying to mind their jobs and compete with other teachers and schools when it comes to assessment. That is why I was on the picket line.

Now point out to me exactly which of my grievences are ''imagined''

acequion

Reading all the above posts about marking from people who know what they're talking about just makes it all the clearer that Ruari Quinn's great "reform" is an unworkable mess.And it wouldn't surprise me if Jan O Sullivan realises that deep down.I thought she looked very worried and under pressure on the news tonight.

The decent thing would be for the Government to back down,defer their reforms until an acceptable,solution can be found, which is costed and thought through. But they won't do that,especially not after their climb down on the water charges. So that means that we have to toughen this one out!