Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Probably the same people who voted Yes for HRA. I know in my school the principal has submitted our names for CPD. Not something we signed up for individually. I imagine it's going on in other schools too. Also there are plenty of teachers who will roll over on JC Assessment. There was a discussion in my staffroom over break last week and one or two teachers commented in the vein of 'this strike action is such an annoyance and I'm losing a day's pay'. That's the bottom line to them, it's putting them out for a day and one day's pay in the year is what they care about most, not the avalanche of work coming their way if teacher marked assessment is pushed through. For perspective the teachers that made those comments are not on low hours, on low wages. They are on full hours, teaching for long enough.

Completely agree. the battle lines are being drawn in our staff-rooms (not in the media) and it could go either way. We have a few people who never bothered, now signing up to the union to join in the protest... and we have the usual few moaning about the one day's pay and losing teaching time (despite being at the top of the pay scale and voted yes in the last HR vote... just to get the annoyance over with).

This will be won and lost... not on public opinion... but on the apathetic teacher's votes (or lack there-of!).

And bare in mind that this will be managed the same way by the Dept.... keep getting another round of voting until we accept... and I bet it'll all come down to offering incentives by way of monetary bribes. Which would be a really sad day for the profession to say that teachers can abandon a principal for a few quid (and it'll be pittance by way of the workload and b*****ology that we'll have to endure.)

2011abc

I KNOW Armelodie that a fair few younger teachers voted Yes for their 'year earlier CIDs' but seriously , considering the vast majority of teachers who were vehemently saying they would vote No (even including some who had previously voted Yes and took umbrage at being asked a third time ) can you unhesitatingly say youre confident our greatest opponents arent in Head Office rather than the staffroom ?The external independent overseers are generally from companies steeped in controversy despite being intended to create a veneer of trust .If I recall they had the votes counted VERY quickly/early on the infamous day in question .

acequion

2011abc wrote: »

I KNOW Armelodie that a fair few younger teachers voted Yes for their 'year earlier CIDs' but seriously , considering the vast majority of teachers who were vehemently saying they would vote No (even including some who had previously voted Yes and took umbrage at being asked a third time ) can you unhesitatingly say youre confident our greatest opponents arent in Head Office rather than the staffroom ?The external independent overseers are generally from companies steeped in controversy despite being intended to create a veneer of trust .If I recall they had the votes counted VERY quickly/early on the infamous day in question .

Ya but how could they possibly get away with that? What you are suggesting is blatant corruption, which is surely a criminal offence.

seavill

The same people that are moaning about missing a days pay are the same that are giving out that the Union didn't fight for their future a few years back.

They fail to see the irony in their actions and opinions.

One day's pay is worth it compared to the next 40 years spending an extra what 50 hours a year easy correcting projects. That's over 2 weeks working for free. It may not technically be a cut in wages but in reality it is.

Some people need to grow up and see the wood from the trees

acequion

Armelodie wrote: »

Completely agree. the battle lines are being drawn in our staff-rooms (not in the media) and it could go either way. We have a few people who never bothered, now signing up to the union to join in the protest... and we have the usual few moaning about the one day's pay and losing teaching time (despite being at the top of the pay scale and voted yes in the last HR vote... just to get the annoyance over with).

This will be won and lost... not on public opinion... but on the apathetic teacher's votes (or lack there-of!).

And bare in mind that this will be managed the same way by the Dept.... keep getting another round of voting until we accept... and I bet it'll all come down to offering incentives by way of monetary bribes. Which would be a really sad day for the profession to say that teachers can abandon a principal for a few quid (and it'll be pittance by way of the workload and b*****ology that we'll have to endure.)

I completely agree with the emboldened bit. The apathy is quite simply unbelievable.There are some in every staff who just keep rolling over and over ad infinitum,may as well shove em out onto the car park :mad: And it's in all age brackets for different reasons. Some of my own age group,the afore mentioned rollers,comfy enough,coming to the top of the scale,I just want to shake the bejasus out of! And then some of the younger ones are like a different species as they never knew decent working conditions and they're willing to put up with anything. And then there's the more militant, like myself.

At the end of the day though,we'll all be adversely affected if we don't stand firm on this so it really is time for everyone to put aside differences and stick together!

Another good idea is to send a letter to the union bosses commending them on their efforts to date and telling them that there really must be no surrender this time. Ye might think it makes no difference but to quote the Tesco slogan,"every little helps".

rainbowtrout

I dunno, I know several posters on this thread are like myself and correct for the SEC in the summer/ examine practicals orals etc. It's not something that many engage with in my school. I'm the only one who corrects in the summer, which is fair enough, people have other things to do. However, I have described my experiences (in general) of correction, and the necessity for the conference, the arguments over stupid answers, the need for external examiners for the practical subjects where teachers assess their own students and the shenanigans that goes on in some schools despite the fact that the external monitor is coming and I put it to some members of staff how fair they think it will be without any form of regulation or external monitoring, based on experiences of what it is like with all that monitoring in place...

amacca

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I dunno, I know several posters on this thread are like myself and correct for the SEC in the summer/ examine practicals orals etc. It's not something that many engage with in my school. I'm the only one who corrects in the summer, which is fair enough, people have other things to do. However, I have described my experiences (in general) of correction, and the necessity for the conference, the arguments over stupid answers, the need for external examiners for the practical subjects where teachers assess their own students and the shenanigans that goes on in some schools despite the fact that the external monitor is coming and I put it to some members of staff how fair they think it will be without any form of regulation or external monitoring, based on experiences of what it is like with all that monitoring in place...

agreed…you just know its going to either be a mess or degenerate quickly into one

teachers shouldn't have to strike at all…the parents should be the ones in opposition to this imo…..very amused listening to parents council spokespersons soundbites with liberal smatterings of the word reform in there

reform my hole, just where does their funding come from again?…….

Caiseoipe19

seavill wrote: »

The same people that are moaning about missing a days pay are the same that are giving out that the Union didn't fight for their future a few years back.

They fail to see the irony in their actions and opinions.

One day's pay is worth it compared to the next 40 years spending an extra what 50 hours a year easy correcting projects. That's over 2 weeks working for free. It may not technically be a cut in wages but in reality it is.

Some people need to grow up and see the wood from the trees

Ah would you come down of your high horse.

There will be teachers of all levels of experience grumbling about losing a days pay. I could make a nice generic statement implying that it's the teachers that are close to retirement that are grumbling about it because they wouldn't be around for the changes. But I won't, because it'd be complete and utter rubbish.

Yes, some recently qualified teachers will grumble about losing a days pay. And yes, there will also be teachers nearing retirement grumbling for the reason above. And there will be plenty of teachers neither near the beginning nor end of their careers, that will grumble. The exact same way it was for people voting YES to HRA.

Out of curiosity, how many out of the thousands of teachers that have qualified post-2011 have you heard grumbling? Or what evidence are you basing that statement on?

evolving_doors

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

Ah would you come down of your high horse.

There will be teachers of all levels of experience grumbling about losing a days pay. I could make a nice generic statement implying that it's the teachers that are close to retirement that are grumbling about it because they wouldn't be around for the changes. But I won't, because it'd be complete and utter rubbish.

Yes, some recently qualified teachers will grumble about losing a days pay. And yes, there will also be teachers nearing retirement grumbling for the reason above. And there will be plenty of teachers neither near the beginning nor end of their careers, that will grumble. The exact same way it was for people voting YES to HRA.

Out of curiosity, how many out of the thousands of teachers that have qualified post-2011 have you heard grumbling? Or what evidence are you basing that statement on?

Hands up, I used the 'senior teachers' example...
Now... the reason I did this was because this one person 'should' know better... not on the sense that they should vote a certain way. It was just the fact that they hadn't the gumption to find out what this whole 'fuss' was about!

I well appreciate that the apathy and ignorance is stratafied across the profession, for new entrants I wouldnt expect them to be up to speed until about year 5 of teaching so in that sense I'll give them a pass!

chambers_j

Has there been any guidance given for teachers who have yet to join a union? In college many new teachers are being encouraged not to join a Union until they are settled in a school and along with other teachers who have never joined a Union. There seems to be no information on whether there is a set protocol for striking or crossing the picket line to work. I am aware that non teaching staff are required to open the school and be in for the duration of their working day but what about teachers who support the strike but are not in ASTI or TUI, can anyone tell me whether we have the right to join the strike or have to be on school property for the duration of the day.
Thanks

doc_17

chambers_j wrote: »

Has there been any guidance given for teachers who have yet to join a union? In college many new teachers are being encouraged not to join a Union until they are settled in a school and along with other teachers who have never joined a Union. There seems to be no information on whether there is a set protocol for striking or crossing the picket line to work. I am aware that non teaching staff are required to open the school and be in for the duration of their working day but what about teachers who support the strike but are not in ASTI or TUI, can anyone tell me whether we have the right to join the strike or have to be on school property for the duration of the day.
Thanks

If you are not in the union then you have the right to join it and receive protection and advice, or not join it.

MrJones1973

A number of points raised here

Union votes-there is no real security when they arrive in head office.ie nothing stopping a ton of them being dumped. Once they are put n a special room then security happens but the journey from the mailroom/office to that room is not secure.
The postal ballots have not increased turnouts but cost a fortune. An alternative might be a school or branch ballot with secure ballot boxes.

Apathy-yes its our greatest enemy. Many teachers are short term thinkers. The enormity of the change has not hit them. There are some who have no difficulty with the changes but I believe their thinking, that project work is a positive, is flawed from top to bottom. A whole chapter in the book 'seven myths of education [/B]; is given over to demolishing their value. All based on intense scholarship.
The New JC will be an evolving thing-if let free. You will go online one day and find x has changed-just like that, Gone will be the days of talking over changes or having a handy curriculum that stays the same month to month. I heard all of this from the ASTI NCCA rep. A lot of these changes will have no research behind them at all.
I dont have the authors name to hand on the above book-will dig it out later. Please no longer buy ' research shows'-ask' what research by whom?' and be ready to counter it.

seavill

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

Ah would you come down of your high horse.

There will be teachers of all levels of experience grumbling about losing a days pay. I could make a nice generic statement implying that it's the teachers that are close to retirement that are grumbling about it because they wouldn't be around for the changes. But I won't, because it'd be complete and utter rubbish.

Yes, some recently qualified teachers will grumble about losing a days pay. And yes, there will also be teachers nearing retirement grumbling for the reason above. And there will be plenty of teachers neither near the beginning nor end of their careers, that will grumble. The exact same way it was for people voting YES to HRA.

Out of curiosity, how many out of the thousands of teachers that have qualified post-2011 have you heard grumbling? Or what evidence are you basing that statement on?

Sorry I will alter my post to keep you happy, and the ridiclious comment about how many thousands of people have I heard grumbling, seriously!


The same people that I have heard are moaning about missing a days pay are the same that are giving out that the Union didn't fight for their future a few years back.

They fail to see the irony in their actions and opinions.

One day's pay is worth it compared to the next 40 years spending an extra what 50 hours a year easy correcting projects. That's over 2 weeks working for free. It may not technically be a cut in wages but in reality it is.

Some people need to grow up and see the wood from the trees

I hope that clarifies my position a bit better as obviously everyone thought that I have personally spoken to every NQT on the issue.

amacca

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I dont have the authors name to hand on the above book-will dig it out later. Please no longer buy ' research shows'-ask' what research by whom?' and be ready to counter it.

Some other problems

Selective quoting of research findings

Research shows that X works………….if contact time is under certain value /administrative burden is below certain value /reasonable class sizes are enforced /proper resources provided /disciplinary structure thats workable in place / responsibilities carry the same importance in legislation as "rights" / proper ICT/ technical support is provided etc etc

A lot of the time we only get the Research shows that X works with no reference to the context the research was carried out in or if it is truly applicable to LCA 2 with no interest in anything except their phones and fighting and no real way to enforce any discipline…..Theres a real reductionist feel to whats going on, probably because its got nothing to do with education and everything to do with spending and populism.

Lots of things need to be introduced into the debate…..we have much higher contact hours, we have larger class sizes….maintaining discipline is much more difficult in our system imo (there are no inbuilt consequences for disrupting teachers and others in our system that don't rely on huge amounts of teacher/management time and effort and mountains of evidence gathering with the knowledge that the law will protect the wrongdoer anyway even if you are in the right etc - bit like the guards arresting people with 80+ previous convictions…really what is the fcuking point) - e.g. in some countries you are required to redo an entire academic year if you fall below a certain standard and the standard is not low (there are some exceptions for genuine learning difficulties, behavioural disorders - thats quite the incentive to not act like a tool every class you are in - eases the disciplinary burden significantly as very few want to spend the extra time in school not earning money) our system is mostly carrot afaic and a small but extremely disruptive percentage just don't respond to the carrot.

Another one, Many of us are forced down the route of mixed ability (which has its benefits socially imo) but does detract from outcomes for the academically average student imo…and is certainly more difficult than teaching a group with in or around the same ability- while some countries may have mixed abilities within schools the schools themselves are streamed…i.e.: School A takes the bright pupils (the not so bright just won't get in) and school B takes the ones deemed to be not so bright………don't tell me that doesn't affect the applicability of the research.

There are many more discrepancies I'd like accounted for……..the devil is in the detail but we are being hammered by populist soundbites

Part of me says why bother fighting…let the baying masses get their way…..they'll get to mess it up quicker that way and consequently they will have to start thinking properly about fixing it sooner - at the end of the day it will be their children and grandchildren will have to go through the system they messed up either through ignorance or jealously or short sightedness.

2011abc

acequion wrote: »

Ya but how could they possibly get away with that? What you are suggesting is blatant corruption, which is surely a criminal offence.

It would/could never happen in Ireland !

acequion

2011abc wrote: »

It would/could never happen in Ireland !

Oh look I'm not saying that at all. I'm well aware of the corruption and hypocrisy in little ole Ireland. But tampering with a democratic vote would entail a conspiracy type of premeditated corruption that I couldn't see them getting away with. Paradoxically Ireland is also very righteous and politically correct,so if the unions were caught at fraud, the media would have a field day demonising them and they would be completely finished. I just couldn't see either general secretary taking that type of risk.

So I really do doubt that anyone would dare tamper with the votes. But hey,I'm open to being surprised.

acequion

amacca wrote: »

Some other problems

Selective quoting of research findings

Research shows that X works………….if contact time is under certain value /administrative burden is below certain value /reasonable class sizes are enforced /proper resources provided /disciplinary structure thats workable in place / responsibilities carry the same importance in legislation as "rights" / proper ICT/ technical support is provided etc etc

A lot of the time we only get the Research shows that X works with no reference to the context the research was carried out in or if it is truly applicable to LCA 2 with no interest in anything except their phones and fighting and no real way to enforce any discipline…..Theres a real reductionist feel to whats going on, probably because its got nothing to do with education and everything to do with spending and populism.

Lots of things need to be introduced into the debate…..we have much higher contact hours, we have larger class sizes….maintaining discipline is much more difficult in our system imo (there are no inbuilt consequences for disrupting teachers and others in our system that don't rely on huge amounts of teacher/management time and effort and mountains of evidence gathering with the knowledge that the law will protect the wrongdoer anyway even if you are in the right etc - bit like the guards arresting people with 80+ previous convictions…really what is the fcuking point) - e.g. in some countries you are required to redo an entire academic year if you fall below a certain standard and the standard is not low (there are some exceptions for genuine learning difficulties, behavioural disorders - thats quite the incentive to not act like a tool every class you are in - eases the disciplinary burden significantly as very few want to spend the extra time in school not earning money) our system is mostly carrot afaic and a small but extremely disruptive percentage just don't respond to the carrot.

Another one, Many of us are forced down the route of mixed ability (which has its benefits socially imo) but does detract from outcomes for the academically average student imo…and is certainly more difficult than teaching a group with in or around the same ability- while some countries may have mixed abilities within schools the schools themselves are streamed…i.e.: School A takes the bright pupils (the not so bright just won't get in) and school B takes the ones deemed to be not so bright………don't tell me that doesn't affect the applicability of the research.

There are many more discrepancies I'd like accounted for……..the devil is in the detail but we are being hammered by populist soundbites

Part of me says why bother fighting…let the baying masses get their way…..they'll get to mess it up quicker that way and consequently they will have to start thinking properly about fixing it sooner - at the end of the day it will be their children and grandchildren will have to go through the system they messed up either through ignorance or jealously or short sightedness.

Very interesting post amacca and I completely agree. More tripe in the front of today's Indo about how Jan O Sullivan wants schools to be more accountable. She's morphing quickly into Quinn lite! And Quinn's old advisor pal John Walshe is jawing away ad nauseum. It's all about loading up the poor donkey and squeeze away,nothing about giving anything back.Nothing about the fact that investment in education here is among the lowest of the OECD countries. Another new soundbyte by the way is "in line with international best practice",the detail,such as your point about mixed ability,being conveniently omitted.

Neo liberalism, with its "big brother" methods and anti worker sentiments is really quite sinister.

MrJones1973

The vote could easily have been tampered with and possibly was. But thats the past. We need to rule out it happening in future. Security needs to be improved. As for those who dont think such things could never happen-two names o'Casey and Nixon. Didnt we even have a Minster of Finance with no bank account and who claimed he got lucky on the horses and another who imported arms?

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The vote could easily have been tampered with and possibly was. But thats the past. We need to rule out it happening in future. Security needs to be improved. As for those who dont think such things could never happen-two names o'Casey and Nixon. Didnt we even have a Minster of Finance with no bank account and who claimed he got lucky on the horses and another who imported arms?

I don't know though, first off I think we can't really make allegations against a business employed to undertake the counting, there has been no evidence to suggest any shenanigans in this case irrespective of what else their business dealings are outside this field. And when you think about it, the only thing that type of business has to go on is 'good faith'.

Anyhow... why rig the system when you can rely on voter apathy and wearing down the opposition with yet another vote (a la Nice 2 .CP1,2,HR1,2,3 etc.). Also during that vote you referred to there was a little bit of 'crumbs' for every everyone to soften them up a bit.

I'm actually quite surprised at public sentiment though... there's no doubt that the media are going on the attack (notice the Indorag will discuss everything education related EXCEPT the Assessment for JC issue). But, I am hearing from a lot of teachers that there is a lot of support out there amongst the public (and parents believe it or not) for the stance. I was talking to a very conservative primary school teacher the other day who mention that despite the fact that she detests the ASTI:pac: she actually supports their position on assessment.

It's very simple.. hold the line and engage your colleagues. Honestly, I don't mind if any of my colleagues (young or old) vote a certain way once they are informed as to what it's about and engage in discussion across the lunch table.

MrJones1973

I do care the way the members vote. This is a defining vote. Rip up your Asti cards if we dont win this one. Hunker in your bunker and count the days until you can retire. Jesus people- even our teacher friends in the Uk have a better sick leave deal and no drive by inspections. We have no promotion structure. They do. Bully shyte Initiative after initiative without resources is what we have. We have three pay scales and no real system of staff welfare. Need I go on..

evolving_doors

Crikey the Indo are really clutching at straws.... Click here for a laugh at the state of 'investigative' journalism in Ireland.

TL;DR paraphrased version
Growing Concern amongst principals (ahem... sources please!!) about not being allowed to be present in school for the first fifteen minutes in case angry parents decide to plonk their kids into school in protest at the strike.

Also note the use of the 'rote learning' stick that is being used to bash us on the head at every opportunity. The paragraph below was the sum total of her 'investigation' into the reason behind the strike.

"The unions are opposed mainly to teachers taking over any responsibility for assessing students, as part of a wider move to end reliance on the traditional Junior Cert exams and the rote learning they encourage."

I'm actually upbeat after seeing how desperate they are to cook up a frenzy. See the comments at the end.. I presume you have to pay them to comment!

acequion

Armelodie wrote: »

Crikey the Indo are really clutching at straws.... Click here for a laugh at the state of 'investigative' journalism in Ireland.

TL;DR paraphrased version
Growing Concern amongst principals (ahem... sources please!!) about not being allowed to be present in school for the first fifteen minutes in case angry parents decide to plonk their kids into school in protest at the strike.

Also note the use of the 'rote learning' stick that is being used to bash us on the head at every opportunity. The paragraph below was the sum total of her 'investigation' into the reason behind the strike.

"The unions are opposed mainly to teachers taking over any responsibility for assessing students, as part of a wider move to end reliance on the traditional Junior Cert exams and the rote learning they encourage."

I'm actually upbeat after seeing how desperate they are to cook up a frenzy. See the comments at the end.. I presume you have to pay them to comment!

Jeez I don't know Armelodie! Even more than the apathetic teachers I would fear the traitors within our ranks,the likes of this Sr Liz Smyth going public with her pro establishment views and screw the rest of us! I would bitterly resent these people for their betrayal. While there might be fans of this new JCSA around the place, the vast majority have the grace to not publically oppose their fighting collegues and even the most die hard can see that teachers have neither the time nor the resources to do what the minister wants.

We absolutely have to win this one so once again I urge everyone to write to their unions to tell them to stand firm.I did and my email was very quickly acknowledged.

MrJones1973

This letter by Barry hazel-published earlier in year in Irish times tackles the 'issue' of rote learning

Sir, – I wasn’t surprised to see the usual criticism of the Leaving Cert as being too dependent on rote learning. This criticism is usually trotted out without any substantiation. Having taught for 20 years I don’t know any student who learns things without understanding them and then applying this knowledge in a variety of ways. It acts as a platform for expansion. As Daisy Christodoulou puts it her book Seven Myths about Education: “Saying all these negative things about rote learning [versus understanding] is very unhelpful. The two things are not in opposition. It’s not that we should spend time on conceptual understanding instead of spending it on learning times tables. It’s by spending time on times tables that you’ll develop the conceptual understanding.”
Christodoulou goes onto critique other favorites of our of our academic elite – projects and “active learning”. This she does with a mixture of common sense and extensive research which contradicts much of what the elite proposes. I would recommend that your readers to pick up a copy of her book before we throw out a relatively well-performing system and replace it with the latest fad. We need more minority voices – the consensus is often wrong – quite wrong. Yours, etc,
BARRY HAZEL,
Giltspur Wood,
Killarney Road,
Bray,
Co Wicklow

Jamfa

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Might I suggest you pen a letter to Irish indo or times? I have published quite a few. You might even guess who I am . We need a bigger audience. Will you consider it? I have contact details for Education editors both. Its time consuming. I have had about ten published plus three articles. I need backup.

Have you given us another clue Barry??

MrJones1973

You know my name-say my name : Hesinberg!

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

You know my name-say my name : Hesinberg!

ok ok we get the idea Rumplestilskin, lets try and keep it all anonymous. Its not against the charter to name yourself but I think in the spirit of things on boards we'll all stay anonymous.
Modulator

hairyprincess

Is the strike still going ahead? I have seen nothing in the media the last few days and no communication from my daughters school about it.

Inspector Coptoor

hairyprincess wrote: »

Is the strike still going ahead? I have seen nothing in the media the last few days and no communication from my daughters school about it.

As it stands, yes, it's still going ahead.

I'm sure school authorities will be sending letters home with students tomorrow advising parents for their kids to stay at home on Tuesday

evolving_doors

Has anyone heard anything about the JMB instructing Principals to advise non-union staff to come into the school (i.e. to force them to cross the picket).
I could have gotten my wires crossed so Ill check again tomorrow, but there were a few annoyed non-union members late friday afternoon (i just caught the end of a conversation on the way to last class!)

hairyprincess

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

As it stands, yes, it's still going ahead.

I'm sure school authorities will be sending letters home with students tomorrow advising parents for their kids to stay at home on Tuesday

The lack of information from the school is disappointing considering many parents will have to take a day off work or organise childcare.