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The Continuity training thread
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I hope it includes the jogging! I did it this morning and it's harder than it sounds. Enjoyed it though.martyboy48 wrote: »Thanks for these Ecolii, I'll look forward to giving them a go.
On the 1st session, the 10-12 mins continuous 5k pace, does this include the jogging between the diagonal pace runs, or is it just the 5k pace part?
And on this as a whole, will it be ongoing or is it for maybe 2-3 months?
Thanks again, good to have you back...0 -
Hi Ecolii
Im looking at DCM 2015. Recent half of 1-29. Marathon in 2013 in Amsterdam of 3:21. Looking for sub 3 this time around. In my running week I think I can definitely get one session done. Tuesdays or Wednesdays. I meet with a group on Saturdays so that should take care of my long run. How can I bridge from say my half in September past to DCM 2015? what should I do as a continuation of training until i start into a programme for DCM 2015?
THANKS in advance for any advice.0 -
martyboy48 wrote: »Thanks for these Ecolii, I'll look forward to giving them a go.
On the 1st session, the 10-12 mins continuous 5k pace, does this include the jogging between the diagonal pace runs, or is it just the 5k pace part?
And on this as a whole, will it be ongoing or is it for maybe 2-3 months?
Thanks again, good to have you back...
That includes jogging, it can be adapted to longer depending on the athlete's background/ current weekly mileage
Aim will be to keep this going indefinitely if there is still enough interest and I can continue to provide interesting sessions in a coherent format0 -
GoTheDistance wrote: »Hi Ecolii
Im looking at DCM 2015. Recent half of 1-29. Marathon in 2013 in Amsterdam of 3:21. Looking for sub 3 this time around. In my running week I think I can definitely get one session done. Tuesdays or Wednesdays. I meet with a group on Saturdays so that should take care of my long run. How can I bridge from say my half in September past to DCM 2015? what should I do as a continuation of training until i start into a programme for DCM 2015?
THANKS in advance for any advice.
Are you running outside of these two runs? I would say if the aim is 1 session a week rotate different stresses while keeping the focus towards aerobic development
So something along the lines of
Week 1 3k/5k work
Week 2 Tempo paced work (10 mile/HMP)
Week 3 10k paced work
Week 4 Long Tempo paced work (MP)
This sort of lay out will provide specific stimulus that will help build strength before you go into your next plan as best possible provided there is easy running around the two key days of the week (session and long run)0 -
Are you running outside of these two runs?
Week 1 3k/5k work
Week 2 Tempo paced work (10 mile/HMP)
Week 3 10k paced work
Week 4 Long Tempo paced work (MP)
Yes I would be getting out 5 days out of 7 for sure. 6 if theres not too much going on with work/family. But definitely 5.
So the Week 1 - 4 - should I just repeat those after I finish Week 4? How far for Week 4's long tempo run? 10 miles also?0 -
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GoTheDistance wrote: »Yes I would be getting out 5 days out of 7 for sure. 6 if theres not too much going on with work/family. But definitely 5.
So the Week 1 - 4 - should I just repeat those after I finish Week 4? How far for Week 4's long tempo run? 10 miles also?
Yes repeat however this does not mean the same session you can change it up or indeed have a completely different session focusing on the same sort of pace efforts
Here is just an example
Month 1
Week 1 - 12 x 90 seconds @ 5k pace with 45 sec - 1 min jog recovery
Week 2 - 3 mile tempo @ HMP
Week 3 - 6 x 1k @ 10k pace with 2 min recovery
Week 4 - 50 minutes @ MP
Month 2 -
Week 1 - 8 x 1 min hills @ 3k effort walk back down recovery
Week 2 - 5 x 1 mile @ HMP w/90 seconds recovery
Week 3 - 14 x (1 min on 1 min off) fartlek on minute @ 10k effort, off @ MP-steady effort
Week 4 - 8 miles alternating between 1 mile @ MP, 1 mile steady
While both of the months could look completely different they have the same sort of stresses around same sessions, or the alternative is to have the sessions progressive
5k paced - Over a three month period decrease the recoveries while aiming to hold the same sort of paces
Month 1 - 1 min recoveries
Month 2 - 45 sec recoveries
Month 3 - 30 sec recoveries
(please note the above are an example layout)
With regards mileage again this depends on your background and history my ultimate advice here would be to work out based more on time and % of overall weekly mileage
There is alot of focus around the ratio of 80/20 with regards training 80 being low instensity running. If you take that into account and split over the usual 2 sessions a week I would say that no quality session should be more than 10% of your overall weekly mileage with this dropping more depending on the intensity
Rough % that would be safe for most to implement would be
1 mile- 5k pace workouts - 4-7% of weekly mileage
10k - MP pace workouts - 7-10% of weekly mileage
There is a little bit of wiggle room regards lower intensity work such as Marathon paced workouts/ Steady Long runs and athletes who are aerobically undertrained causing a bit of distortion if they are targeting longer distance races but overall those sort of figures won't steer you wrong
Also with regards time many plans designate certain distances (i.e 10x400m etc) but it should be noted that time plays a factor, take this session in relation to a 4 minute miler running these at mile pace that is 59 seconds per 400m, compare that to a 6 minute miler in order for the session to have the same sort of stresses for both athletes you would either have to change the 4 min milers session to 10x600 at the same pace or reduce the distance of the other athletes reps to roughly 250m with the same recovery. This point is crucial when looking at plans and aiming to adapt a session to your own needs always look at your relative level and how it translates to the aim of the session
To give an example of the above,take athlete a who is a 22 min 5k runner running 40 mpw
If we take those sort of figures and the sort of race times something along the lines of 8x200m w/ 30 seconds to a minute provides adequate stress to get the approriate volume and intensity from the session to see improvement
For this reason the long tempo I would aim to say what ever sort of distance your ability indicates that you can hold marathon effort for roughly between 45 min - 6 min on any given day. Obviously as you get fitter the pace will drop so it this is where tuning into how you feel makes a big difference so that in time you will learn to adapt to external factors (wind, heat rain etc) and also internal (stress, lack of sleep, fighting illness) to make sure you are getting the right effort levels to get the right training stimulus from the session.0 -
Would this be similar to the diagonals? Was going to do the diagonals session today, but don't want to destroy the local water-logged pitch with my spikes, and have a short undulating circuit that I could use instead. So would 12 x 90s@5k + 45s recovery be similar/too much over an undulating route? It's around 27 minutes of work, plus warm up/down.Week 1 - 12 x 90 seconds @ 5k pace with 45 sec - 1 min jog recovery0 -
@KC (Damn this new user crap limiting the way I post with regards quotes links etc)
Diagonals would have a bit more emphasis on leg turnover than 5k rhythm usually for athletes as opposed to the focus solely being on the aerobic element which comes a bit more into play on the 90 sec reps but both would have a similar enough physiological benefit. the 12 x 90 seconds was more an example session (more aiming to show how sessions would look in that sort of format and how they could differ without changing the dynamics of the session.
If you were looking to repeat the aims of the diagonal can be a simple as 24x30 seconds on, 30 seconds off with the focus on running relaxed good form for the faster parts.
When using the session as a re introduction after a target race etc (Marathon being a great example) I think having short unquantifiable reps is a great way as you are basing on feel rather than set prescribed longer reps that can be comparable diagonals can work a treat much like fartlek session in that you can have a bit of flexibility in terms of the outcomes of the session depending on where you are in training and what outcomes you are looking for0 -
Cheers ecoliiiii. The route I have in mind is pretty undulating, so I think that it will create the variability/randomness of fartleks (and it's wood-chipping underfoot, so perfect for a first proper run back since the marathon). Will aim for 24x30 with 30 recovery.@KC (Damn this new user crap limiting the way I post with regards quotes links etc)
Diagonals would have a bit more emphasis on leg turnover than 5k rhythm usually for athletes as opposed to the focus solely being on the aerobic element which comes a bit more into play on the 90 sec reps but both would have a similar enough physiological benefit. the 12 x 90 seconds was more an example session (more aiming to show how sessions would look in that sort of format and how they could differ without changing the dynamics of the session.
If you were looking to repeat the aims of the diagonal can be a simple as 24x30 seconds on, 30 seconds off with the focus on running relaxed good form for the faster parts.
When using the session as a re introduction after a target race etc (Marathon being a great example) I think having short unquantifiable reps is a great way as you are basing on feel rather than set prescribed longer reps that can be comparable diagonals can work a treat much like fartlek session in that you can have a bit of flexibility in terms of the outcomes of the session depending on where you are in training and what outcomes you are looking for0 -
This is probably a stupid question but what should 5k pace feel like - I just use a normal watch & will be relying on feel. Should it feel hard, flat out, relaxed hard etc. thanks0
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Yes repeat however this does not mean the same session you can change it up or indeed have a completely different session focusing on the same sort of pace efforts
ECOLII this is absolutely fantastic. Incredible detail. Thanks for taking so much time to compile that for me. Ill need to sit down and go through it carefully. If its OK and you are not swamped I might have a few questions. Really appreciate this. Im sure if might also benefit many others on here.0 -
GoTheDistance wrote: »ECOLII this is absolutely fantastic. Incredible detail. Thanks for taking so much time to compile that for me. Ill need to sit down and go through it carefully. If its OK and you are not swamped I might have a few questions. Really appreciate this. Im sure if might also benefit many others on here.
No problem, will aim to answer any questions I can in this thread and hopefully as it progresses many will be able to chime in with their own thoughts (plenty of ways to skin a cat with regards training) or even feedback from people who do the sort of sessions I will post and what they feel works or doesn't work.
As I have said before this thread is about exposing people to different types of training philosophies and methodologies so many of the types of sessions I will add I will use myself or with my athletes but many others I will not have experience in doing/ fit in with my own overall methods with athletes (the one caveat is that I will not include sessions that I feel might be of very high injury risk or advanced to the point where you need to progress sessions to get to that point)0 -
This is probably a stupid question but what should 5k pace feel like - I just use a normal watch & will be relying on feel. Should it feel hard, flat out, relaxed hard etc. thanks
With the high volume low recovery reps the feeling I am for is that the first few are nice and controlled i.e relaxed hard but by the last 2-3 reps you are really working to maintain pace so should feel quite hard however you should always feel like you can do 1-2 more reps and should not feel like you have nothing left.0 -
To give an example of the above,take athlete a who is a 22 min 5k runner running 40 mpw
If we take those sort of figures and the sort of race times something along the lines of 8x200m w/ 30 seconds to a minute provides adequate stress to get the approriate volume and intensity from the session to see improvement
Thanks for this. The bolded above is almost me (22.02 5k pb during the summer and hope to get to 40 mpw regularly but will definitely be around 35 mpw)
I would love to follow these sessions. The structure of my week would hopefully look something like Session 1 Sunday, Session 2 Wednesday and LSR Friday with 2 other easy days during the week.
My easy days would be 5 mile lunchtime runs, Wednesday session either early morning or lunchtime, could push this up to 10-12 miles which would probably suit tempo sessions, etc.
The main question I have is about the long run % of weekly miles. I am coming off the back of marathon training (a disappointing 4.23) where I averaged 35 mpw (47 mpw peak) and would like to keep some decent LSR's going over winter, up to 16 miles, as I hope to do a spring marathon (another sub 4 attempt!) The LSR was normally 35-40% of total weekly miles and looking forward over the next couple of months it probably wouldn't change much. Is this too much? How would you recommend correcting this? All I can see is more mileage which isn't really an option due to young kids or shorter LSR's which I feel would be a backwards step as stamina is my main problem.0 -
No problem, will aim to answer any questions I can in this thread and hopefully as it progresses many will be able to chime in with their own thoughts (plenty of ways to skin a cat with regards training) or even feedback from people who do the sort of sessions I will post and what they feel works or doesn't work.
As I have said before this thread is about exposing people to different types of training philosophies and methodologies so many of the types of sessions I will add I will use myself or with my athletes but many others I will not have experience in doing/ fit in with my own overall methods with athletes (the one caveat is that I will not include sessions that I feel might be of very high injury risk or advanced to the point where you need to progress sessions to get to that point)
I think that's where your skill and experience can really help us. Its very difficult for most people to be able to make sense of those training philosophies and methodologies. A lot of the time I feel that none of these apply to me. But someone like yourself can absorb the lessons in these methods and distill them out for us.
As I said I want to sit down and read your advice closely. But for certain in the future if, when I am following the schedule, I encounter problems then I'll certainly let you know here. As you said the feedback is what helps drive the improvements to any of this advice.0 -
Thanks for this. The bolded above is almost me (22.02 5k pb during the summer and hope to get to 40 mpw regularly but will definitely be around 35 mpw)
I would love to follow these sessions. The structure of my week would hopefully look something like Session 1 Sunday, Session 2 Wednesday and LSR Friday with 2 other easy days during the week.
My easy days would be 5 mile lunchtime runs, Wednesday session either early morning or lunchtime, could push this up to 10-12 miles which would probably suit tempo sessions, etc.
The main question I have is about the long run % of weekly miles. I am coming off the back of marathon training (a disappointing 4.23) where I averaged 35 mpw (47 mpw peak) and would like to keep some decent LSR's going over winter, up to 16 miles, as I hope to do a spring marathon (another sub 4 attempt!) The LSR was normally 35-40% of total weekly miles and looking forward over the next couple of months it probably wouldn't change much. Is this too much? How would you recommend correcting this? All I can see is more mileage which isn't really an option due to young kids or shorter LSR's which I feel would be a backwards step as stamina is my main problem.
I will have a similar problem, hoping to train for HM in March and up the LSR but I won't be able to take the weekly miles above 40/45miles a week. So my LSR will out of portion with the rest of the week.0 -
My easy days would be 5 mile lunchtime runs, Wednesday session either early morning or lunchtime, could push this up to 10-12 miles which would probably suit tempo sessions, etc.
The main question I have is about the long run % of weekly miles. I am coming off the back of marathon training (a disappointing 4.23) where I averaged 35 mpw (47 mpw peak) and would like to keep some decent LSR's going over winter, up to 16 miles, as I hope to do a spring marathon (another sub 4 attempt!) The LSR was normally 35-40% of total weekly miles and looking forward over the next couple of months it probably wouldn't change much. Is this too much? How would you recommend correcting this? All I can see is more mileage which isn't really an option due to young kids or shorter LSR's which I feel would be a backwards step as stamina is my main problem.
Personally I think 35-40% of training in one run is counter productive. You are effectively over working on that that and your body is taking so long to recover that effectively nullifies the benefits gained from adding the other quality sessions. The one thing that I would highlight is the fact that there are many ways to build aerobic fitness. From 1500m up are predominantly aerobic events so even mile paced reps will have aerobic benefit.
We often look at elite training and compare ours to there's and how to adjust it down but for the purpose of the point I am about to make we will reverse that
Kenesia Bekele reportedly was doing 30 mile longs runs and roughly 150 miles a week. When you convert the paces he was roughly looking at a 3 hour run specifically at LSR pace at the peak of his marathon training
This would mean that by doing a 16 miler you are effectively working as hard as an Elite Ethiopian Marathoner without building the proper foundations which will increase your risk of injury and burn out. You are still over 20 weeks from most spring marathons at this stage you can build aerobic stamina on 2/3 fronts in the form of the sessions as well as the long run.
Think of it like this, races are the most specific work we do for any distance as they provide the exact physiological demands, so why do we do reps and other training instead of not just racing flat out every run? the reason being is recovery. If we raced a 10k every week we essentially would have no other time in the week to train rather than recover in order to get the benefits from the stress caused by the race, similarly to this the long run when we have not built up an aerobic background can take best part of a week at times which is why we cut it back to between 90 min and 2 hours, this will mean we may only get 80% of the benefits but means we are able to add a second quality day 3 days later roughly meaning where we were once getting 100% benefit from one run we might be getting 80% of the same benefits twice a week meaning that we are actually developing aerobically about 1 and a half times as much as we might have been with the focus on the long run.
As you get nearer the marathon there will be a need for specificity and at that point the runs will get longer but as you get fitter you will find that the mileage will increase as the time taken stays the same. This will mean that by the time you get to the specific work you will be able to do long runs without the need for as much recovery.
Trust me a 90 min - 2 hour run at this stage is plenty to build aerobic fitness in any runner from 2.30 marathon to 6 hours.SamforMayo wrote: »I will have a similar problem, hoping to train for HM in March and up the LSR but I won't be able to take the weekly miles above 40/45miles a week. So my LSR will out of portion with the rest of the week.
Same point applies your body is not a GPS watch it doesn't measure distance but rather Effort and time so once you get up in the +90 minute runs you will see benefit but trick is to balance that with other sessions in the week (IIRC my first half marathon my longest run was never over 1hr 40 and it my target because I was building fitness through cumulative fatigue rather than focusing on one run in the week.0 -
Just another question on the LSR's as it's a concept I'm still struggling to fully grasp and I think it would make a good discussion.
As we know, the benefits of a long run fall off a cliff past about 3 hours. Lets say you have a 3.30 marathon (8min/mile pace) runner and you want them to run their LSR's at the low end of aerobic (2min/mile slower than MP). At 10min/mile pace, their longest run in keeping with the 3 hour benchmark would be 18 miles. That long run would be reduced more and more the farther someone is from 3.30 pace. Some runners might only get 14 miles as their long run which as we know wouldn't be sufficient for marathon training.
My question is where do you draw the line between physiological benefits and psychological benefits:
Do you say keep going to that runner to keep going longer than 3 hours with little benefit to be gained from what could only be described as junk mileage?
Do you say stop at 3 hours with only 18 miles done?
Do you speed up the pace to 1.30 or 1min/ mile slower than MP so that runner gets more mileage while still keeping the benefits of that run limited to 3 hours?
It's kind of a conundrum for me because the people who will be able to get a 20+ mile long run in under 3 hours are going to be the aerobically strong runners0 -
Question about long run/easy pace.
When saying MP +1-2 min/mile Would you base it off your actual marathon time or what your MP should be based on 5k/10k/HM times. As we all know, often actual MP doesn't stack up to where it should be based on shorter races and training. Also since we generally only get one chance at it a year a lot of things can go wrong on the day (such as conditions in DCM this year) with no chance to rectify it as we could if we had a dodgy 5k result.
This question is mainly for those more novice runners out there many of whom were going for say sub 4hr but ended up closer to 5 due to long bouts of walking/limping/stopping etc.0 -
Netwerk Errer wrote: »Just another question on the LSR's as it's a concept I'm still struggling to fully grasp and I think it would make a good discussion.
As we know, the benefits of a long run fall off a cliff past about 3 hours. Lets say you have a 3.30 marathon (8min/mile pace) runner and you want them to run their LSR's at the low end of aerobic (2min/mile slower than MP). At 10min/mile pace, their longest run in keeping with the 3 hour benchmark would be 18 miles. That long run would be reduced more and more the farther someone is from 3.30 pace. Some runners might only get 14 miles as their long run which as we know wouldn't be sufficient for marathon training.
My question is where do you draw the line between physiological benefits and psychological benefits:
Do you say keep going to that runner to keep going longer than 3 hours with little benefit to be gained from what could only be described as junk mileage?
Do you say stop at 3 hours with only 18 miles done?
Do you speed up the pace to 1.30 or 1min/ mile slower than MP so that runner gets more mileage while still keeping the benefits of that run limited to 3 hours?
It's kind of a conundrum for me because the people who will be able to get a 20+ mile long run in under 3 hours are going to be the aerobically strong runners
This is a very good point to make and one which could probably be be answered a hundred different ways by a hundred different people and you would still be none the wise as to what is the "correct approach"
I made a point on a previous post a couple of months that at first probably seems a little contradictory. I mentioned that athletes should not be running a marathon in their first 2-3 years of running because there body is not prepared to handle the long runs yet the single greatest workout for a Novice marathon at the same time is those +20 mile runs (bear with me for a moment here to explain)
People taking up the sport from nothing to aim to do the marathon in 6-12 months (at the low end but even in the 2-3 years range the point is still applicable) simply can't handle the training required, even if you get past the injury/illness risk and arrive at the start line more often than not a resilience has allowed you to tolerate training as opposed to adapting. A LSR at easy pace by its nature should not leave you wiped out for the day and in general phase i.e (anything from 12 weeks to further roughly out from a marathon) should not be a focus session but rather supplementary.
However if they have their heart set on doing the marathon before their body is prepared for to handle the training well then you have to weigh up not the best approach but the best way to get them as efficiently around the course as their body will allow and to do that you focus on the LSR as it is the most specific stimulus that will give you the best bang for your buck in the short term.
A good analogy of this is the cortisone injection that footballers would get to continue on in a Cup final, long term its not gonna fix things but it may just be enough to get them through the remainder of the game.
There are ways which you can change the dynamics of a long run to get good aerobic boosts without crossing that threshold. Personally I am a fan of rotation between time on feet easy LSR's and Steady Long runs of about 75% of the distance roughly half way between easy and Marathon pace, throw in Marathon Paced tempos and you really have a good set of ingredients to hugely boost your aerobic fitness without fatiguing the muscles to the point where injuries start popping up (I regularly see clients suffering from injuries as a result of hip instability due to muscle fatigue in the last few miles of LSR's during marathon season)
I would advise at least once getting the amount of time on your feet you plan the marathon to be but other than that I think the risk/reward ratio is to great. In short term you may hit your target but ultimately I think this approach hinders long term development. IMO there is no reason why 3.10-3.20 is physically an achievable target for majority of the general public (this is not commenting on approach of anyone not running those times as other external factors do play a role such as life, other commitments, personally choices etc come into play)
(Hope this answers your question if not I can specify down on particular points as this was more a general response)0 -
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Question about long run/easy pace.
When saying MP +1-2 min/mile Would you base it off your actual marathon time or what your MP should be based on 5k/10k/HM times. As we all know, often actual MP doesn't stack up to where it should be based on shorter races and training. Also since we generally only get one chance at it a year a lot of things can go wrong on the day (such as conditions in DCM this year) with no chance to rectify it as we could if we had a dodgy 5k result.
This question is mainly for those more novice runners out there many of whom were going for say sub 4hr but ended up closer to 5 due to long bouts of walking/limping/stopping etc.
A good point
There is no right or wrong here as there are drawbacks to both basing off 5k or MP depending on your strengths and weaknesses. The aim here is to give yourself a ball park figure to use as a general yard stick and from there.
While the pace's are a guide you also have to be honest with yourself, Starting off at an aggressive target in MP and blowing up doesn't mean the MP is either the Effort you started or finished at, likewise basing on your 5k PB if you haven't trained for a couple of months since isn't gonna work either.
Which ever approach you go with use it as a starting point and from there aim to learn by feel. If in doubt err on the slow side, better to undercook it by 5% than overcook it by even 1%0 -
im not really continuning on from anything but thanx for this tread. did the diagonals this mornin and found them good fun. the 12 minutes flew by. will try out other sessions too0
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This is a very good point to make and one which could probably be be answered a hundred different ways by a hundred different people and you would still be none the wise as to what is the "correct approach"
I made a point on a previous post a couple of months that at first probably seems a little contradictory. I mentioned that athletes should not be running a marathon in their first 2-3 years of running because there body is not prepared to handle the long runs yet the single greatest workout for a Novice marathon at the same time is those +20 mile runs (bear with me for a moment here to explain)
People taking up the sport from nothing to aim to do the marathon in 6-12 months (at the low end but even in the 2-3 years range the point is still applicable) simply can't handle the training required, even if you get past the injury/illness risk and arrive at the start line more often than not a resilience has allowed you to tolerate training as opposed to adapting. A LSR at easy pace by its nature should not leave you wiped out for the day and in general phase i.e (anything from 12 weeks to further roughly out from a marathon) should not be a focus session but rather supplementary.
However if they have their heart set on doing the marathon before their body is prepared for to handle the training well then you have to weigh up not the best approach but the best way to get them as efficiently around the course as their body will allow and to do that you focus on the LSR as it is the most specific stimulus that will give you the best bang for your buck in the short term.
A good analogy of this is the cortisone injection that footballers would get to continue on in a Cup final, long term its not gonna fix things but it may just be enough to get them through the remainder of the game.
There are ways which you can change the dynamics of a long run to get good aerobic boosts without crossing that threshold. Personally I am a fan of rotation between time on feet easy LSR's and Steady Long runs of about 75% of the distance roughly half way between easy and Marathon pace, throw in Marathon Paced tempos and you really have a good set of ingredients to hugely boost your aerobic fitness without fatiguing the muscles to the point where injuries start popping up (I regularly see clients suffering from injuries as a result of hip instability due to muscle fatigue in the last few miles of LSR's during marathon season)
I would advise at least once getting the amount of time on your feet you plan the marathon to be but other than that I think the risk/reward ratio is to great. In short term you may hit your target but ultimately I think this approach hinders long term development. IMO there is no reason why 3.10-3.20 is physically an achievable target for majority of the general public (this is not commenting on approach of anyone not running those times as other external factors do play a role such as life, other commitments, personally choices etc come into play)
(Hope this answers your question if not I can specify down on particular points as this was more a general response)
^^^This is the point I'm trying to get across, you train to your ability, not your overall mileage. I think generic training plans are too mileage orientated and don't focus on ability level( marathon plans especially) and I know you agree with me on this. I think it just needs to be stressed more for people to understand it as it's relative to all runners. As you said yourself, "there's more than one way to skin a cat"
Don't get me wrong, training plans are a great way to find different idea's anf those idea's and principles should be used in a way that suits an individual. I'll give everyone an example as it's probably the one training plan staple that annoys me most. The tempo run, Most plans will have a 4-5 mile tempo run. Using mileage to set a tempo is just wrong from my perception. A 5 mile tempo for a 60 minute 10ker is 50 minutes at 10k race pace. That's a race, not a workout. It's just something I wanted to point out as a tempo run is more of a timed ability workout than a mileage based. I believe a lot of people make mistake of following a plan mile for mile instead of thinking "Hold on, how could I make this session to give me maximum benefit without increasing the risks of injury/fatigue". That's why I think this is a great thread, People will learn how to break down workouts and tailor them to their own ability.
A lot of this post wouldn't look out of place in the rant thread but I thought I'd share my thoughts:D0 -
Thanks for this. I'm in my first week back from DCM with just easy running but will be on 2 weeks holidays so consider myself to be back properly and ready to start something new in December. Will check in then.0
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Surely the tempo run should be completely effort based, whether measured in time or distance. That's the way I was taught.
I would approach a 8 mile tempo run in the same way I would a 5 mile tempo run. Similarly a 40 vs. 20 minute tempo run. It's all effort based, gradually increasing the pace until you feel you have reached a pace sustainable for the duration/distance.
Generic plans should only be used as a loose basic framework. You have to find what works for you. I love it when some people day, for example: 'The P&D Plan was great, it got my time down from 4.23 to 4.05.' It's a completely meaningless comment. Maybe the plan helped you reach your maximum potential bit maybe, just maybe, you sold yourself short.0 -
dublin runner wrote: »Surely the tempo run should be completely effort based, whether measured in time or distance. That's the way I was taught.
I would approach a 8 mile tempo run in the same way I would a 5 mile tempo run. Similarly a 40 vs. 20 minute tempo run. It's all effort based, gradually increasing the pace until you feel you have reached a pace sustainable for the duration/distance.
Yes it should be effort based but I think there does need to be another parameter to ensure the right dynamics for the session.
I think the main issue is that tempo is a catch all term that means different things to different people and different training methods. If you get down to all the technical terms (Crest Loading, Lactate Threshold, Anaerobic Threshold, Aerobic Threshold, Lactate Turnpoint or any other term you wanna use) have all come under the term "Tempo" at some stage so the understanding of the a widely used term actually becomes alot more complex
The generally accepted consensus of Tempo is the effort level you can hold for 1 hour racing which can range from 10k-HM depending on the athlete (Anaerobic Threshold is usually the term. But as the duration increases so to does the effort so you will change the dynamics of the session as it goes on in order to stay at the right HR). Effectively this would lead to you actually slowing down as the session went on to combat the cardiac drift and make sure you are staying at the right effort levels (if sustained for too long)
You could get in to the nitty gritty of each of the physiological effects of the different technical terms but for the sake of improvement and to keep things simple my general guidelines of time/effort to make sure you are getting enough stimulus by doing enough effort without overdoing it would be
Short Tempo: 20-40 minutes - The effort you could hold for 1 hr racing roughly (easy oversimplified guide is 10k-HM depending on level)
Long Tempo: 40 min - 60 min - The effort you could hold for 2 hr race pace (HM - MP depending on level)0 -
This thread is a wonderful resource.0
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Personally I think 35-40% of training in one run is counter productive. You are effectively over working on that that and your body is taking so long to recover that effectively nullifies the benefits gained from adding the other quality sessions. The one thing that I would highlight is the fact that there are many ways to build aerobic fitness. From 1500m up are predominantly aerobic events so even mile paced reps will have aerobic benefit.
We often look at elite training and compare ours to there's and how to adjust it down but for the purpose of the point I am about to make we will reverse that
Kenesia Bekele reportedly was doing 30 mile longs runs and roughly 150 miles a week. When you convert the paces he was roughly looking at a 3 hour run specifically at LSR pace at the peak of his marathon training
This would mean that by doing a 16 miler you are effectively working as hard as an Elite Ethiopian Marathoner without building the proper foundations which will increase your risk of injury and burn out. You are still over 20 weeks from most spring marathons at this stage you can build aerobic stamina on 2/3 fronts in the form of the sessions as well as the long run.
Think of it like this, races are the most specific work we do for any distance as they provide the exact physiological demands, so why do we do reps and other training instead of not just racing flat out every run? the reason being is recovery. If we raced a 10k every week we essentially would have no other time in the week to train rather than recover in order to get the benefits from the stress caused by the race, similarly to this the long run when we have not built up an aerobic background can take best part of a week at times which is why we cut it back to between 90 min and 2 hours, this will mean we may only get 80% of the benefits but means we are able to add a second quality day 3 days later roughly meaning where we were once getting 100% benefit from one run we might be getting 80% of the same benefits twice a week meaning that we are actually developing aerobically about 1 and a half times as much as we might have been with the focus on the long run.
As you get nearer the marathon there will be a need for specificity and at that point the runs will get longer but as you get fitter you will find that the mileage will increase as the time taken stays the same. This will mean that by the time you get to the specific work you will be able to do long runs without the need for as much recovery.
Trust me a 90 min - 2 hour run at this stage is plenty to build aerobic fitness in any runner from 2.30 marathon to 6 hours.
Same point applies your body is not a GPS watch it doesn't measure distance but rather Effort and time so once you get up in the +90 minute runs you will see benefit but trick is to balance that with other sessions in the week (IIRC my first half marathon my longest run was never over 1hr 40 and it my target because I was building fitness through cumulative fatigue rather than focusing on one run in the week.
Thanks for the detailed reply and I understand what you are saying, however the numbers still don't add up for me.
Say for example your LSR pace is 10 m/m or slower, so during a 90-120 min LSR you are covering 9-12 miles. In order for this to be 25% max of your weekly mileage you would still need to be doing 36-48 mpw. Taking 36 mpw and an lsr of 9 miles that still leaves 27 miles to cover in 4 days, assuming 2 rest days 2 sessions of maybe 7 & 5 miles in total leaves 15 miles to cover in 2 days easy running. Maybe the simple answer is you cannot do this with 5 days running and a 6th day should be added if possible or try doing 1 double recovery day? Or am I making the mistake of concentrating too much on miles as mentioned above.0 -
Or am I making the mistake of concentrating too much on miles as mentioned above.
I want to clear up what I was saying about mileage as you have misunderstood me and I have caused the confusion.
My statement was about training plans setting runs and workouts by distance and that doesn't take personal ability into account. Ecolii is doing the right thing by setting timed sessions where necessary. he has taken everyone's current physical fitness into consideration. Physiological benefits are something that are more time and effort based than the actual distance of the given run.
Don't get me wrong mileage very important but I feel it's misused in some places in generic training plans. There will come a time in long runs where the benefits get more and more incrementally smaller and recovery time will get longer and longer(3 hours) that if someone's 20 mile run takes 4 hours, the benefits to risk ratio is more and more favouring risk if it's done on a weekly basis.
The same goes for using distance to determine a tempo run as I mentioned earlier. Most marathon plans are aimed at the sub-3.30 runner and they assume you're a pretty strong aerobic runner. They don't have select workouts to run for a certain marathon goal time. They over generalise training.
That's not to say a 4.30 can't follow these plans but they need to know which workouts aren't suitable for them and how they can tailor it to suit them.
It's really about knowing your the limitations of a plan. I'm sure that if you pay attention to the workouts ecoli is sharing and listening to the reason why you're doing that session, you will learn what you're trying to achieve in your training.
Edit: Just to try be clearer. The overall mileage of the plans was not my gripe. Just some of the use of mileage to describe some workouts where time would be more accurate.
I'm trying to verbalise this as best I can but it's not easy.0 -
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Thanks for the detailed reply and I understand what you are saying, however the numbers still don't add up for me.
Say for example your LSR pace is 10 m/m or slower, so during a 90-120 min LSR you are covering 9-12 miles. In order for this to be 25% max of your weekly mileage you would still need to be doing 36-48 mpw. Taking 36 mpw and an lsr of 9 miles that still leaves 27 miles to cover in 4 days, assuming 2 rest days 2 sessions of maybe 7 & 5 miles in total leaves 15 miles to cover in 2 days easy running. Maybe the simple answer is you cannot do this with 5 days running and a 6th day should be added if possible or try doing 1 double recovery day? Or am I making the mistake of concentrating too much on miles as mentioned above.
I don't see the problem with running 15 miles over 2 easy days however don't neglect warm up and cool down for sessions. Unless they are very short sessions it would be unusual to get one wrapped up inside 5 miles with a good w/u and c/d included (say 2 miles either side). Then you would have 2 session days for 7-8 miles which would only leave you with only 10-12 miles to cover in your 2 easy days...0
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