The Continuity training thread

ECOLII

Dunno whether there will be any interest in this thread with the graduates/specific training threads etc but will take it as it comes.

Basically this is an idea spawned from previous comments I have made about the difference between becoming a marathoner rather than a runner (well rounded athlete for want of a better word)

There is a tendency to jump straight into specific plans without getting the benefits of a well rounded foundation (i.e strength, speed, co-ordination etc) this can lead to a cycle of 5k/10k training build up to marathon cycle and rinse and repeat which can be fine but it can leave you pigeon holed in the same type of training and as a result can sometimes cause stagnation in training.

The aim is for overall improvement rather than specialization for a target event (though this does not mean that following this layout cannot lead to improvement for a target race).

What I am to do in the thread is provide a 2 session a week template (with a breakdown of specifics to coincide with target weekly mileage) I will also try an explain the reasons behind the session and the pro's and con's. This will not be based on any one coaches approach but rather to be used to sample different training methodology while tailoring it in a way which creates a coherent general outline so that people can see big improvements across the board that they can take into their following training plans or even open people's eyes to different types of training outside of the usual generic plans.

pconn062

ECOLII wrote: »

Dunno whether there will be any interest in this thread with the graduates/specific training threads etc but will take it as it comes.

Basically this is an idea spawned from previous comments I have made about the difference between becoming a marathoner rather than a runner (well rounded athlete for want of a better word)

There is a tendency to jump straight into specific plans without getting the benefits of a well rounded foundation (i.e strength, speed, co-ordination etc) this can lead to a cycle of 5k/10k training build up to marathon cycle and rinse and repeat which can be fine but it can leave you pigeon holed in the same type of training and as a result can sometimes cause stagnation in training.

The aim is for overall improvement rather than specialization for a target event (though this does not mean that following this layout cannot lead to improvement for a target race).

What I am to do in the thread is provide a 2 session a week template (with a breakdown of specifics to coincide with target weekly mileage) I will also try an explain the reasons behind the session and the pro's and con's. This will not be based on any one coaches approach but rather to be used to sample different training methodology while tailoring it in a way which creates a coherent general outline so that people can see big improvements across the board that they can take into their following training plans or even open people's eyes to different types of training outside of the usual generic plans.

Excellent idea ecoli, good idea for those who want to break the repeated marathon cycle. We might even get a few middle distance runners out of it!

kit3

Thanks EcoliI. Would love to give this a go but I'm signed up for Donadea on Feb - does that put me in the wrong place at the moment ?

ECOLII

pconn062 wrote: »

Excellent idea ecoli, good idea for those who want to break the repeated marathon cycle. We might even get a few middle distance runners out of it!

There will be a touch of all paces throughout as I think the physiological effects of higher intensity efforts can complement a distance runner very well the trick comes when you have to tailor the plan to the needs but that comes later, many people are coming to the sport without the Long Term Athletic Development model that Juvenile athletics tries to implement so this is a way of addressing that

kit3 wrote: »

Thanks EcoliI. Would love to give this a go but I'm signed up for Donadea on Feb - does that put me in the wrong place at the moment ?

As said it will be a case of introducing different types of sessions so its a case of take them or leave them as best suits the individuals needs

Chivito550

pconn062 wrote: »

Excellent idea ecoli, good idea for those who want to break the repeated marathon cycle. We might even get a few middle distance runners out of it!

Or sprinters?

ECOLII

Chivito550 wrote: »

Or sprinters?

Might even throw one or two sessions to fine tune sub 60 or 800m aspirants as the year goes on

ECOLII

Right so to kick things off The one thing I would say is that unless otherwise state I would aim to try an maintain a long run of roughly 20-25% of your overall weekly mileage (depending on how many days you are running)

If you are only running 3 days per week I would advise to just attempt one session per week

Session 1| Diagonals|10-12 minutes continuous|5k pace


This is a great introductory to speedwork. Effectively it involved either a football pitch or a track. The aim is to run from corner to corner of a pitch (or if have access to a track simply use the 100m straights) at just slightly quicker than 5k pace and jog the length of the end line (bend on track) at easy pace. This is great for leg turnover but the continuous nature makes it a decent aerobic work out to which is probably why it is a popular one among Kenya distance runners

Please find like below for a diagram explanation

http:// + www + boards + ie + /vbulletin/ +showpost.php? + p=69988117& + postcount=22

(Had to break it up till I get enough posts:p )

Session 2| 20 minute tempo|10k-10 mile pace*


*Please note that this is based on your level, it is roughly the pace which you can hold for an hour (so if you are a 50-60 min 10k runner then just slightly slower than 10k pace is fine). It does not have to be exact but that is the effort level you are looking for. Effectively the aim of this session is to train your body to get rid of lactate quicker than your body is producing it. This is one of the keys to training for any aerobic event. Tempo is a widely interpreted term and generally is used as a catch all term for long sustained sub maximal race efforts.

laura_ac3

Those look really interesting. What sort of warm up and cool downs would be recommended with those sessions? Sorry if that's a stupid question!!

ECOLII

laura_ac3 wrote: »

Those look really interesting. What sort of warm up and cool downs would be recommended with those sessions? Sorry if that's a stupid question!!

Apologies thought I had that added,

Depending on the weekly mileage I would recommend between 1-3 miles warm up and cooldown

laura_ac3

ECOLII wrote: »

Apologies thought I had that added,

Depending on the weekly mileage I would recommend between 1-3 miles warm up and cooldown

Thanks very much ecolii.

Netwerk Errer

This is a brilliant idea Ecolii. A lot of new runners and even experienced runners don't pay much attention to strength, neuromuscular or base training. They rush into specific plans where intensity and mileage increases happen at the same time without the necessary background training to sustain specific training. Doing so nearly always leads to overuse injuries and chronic fatigue.

I think too many runners are a slave to the generic training plans and never learn how to structure a plan to suit themselves because of that. They never learn what they're trying to achieve with different sessions. I often think that pure sprint training is overlooked in distance running. Working on a runners explosiveness and top end speed can only make a better all round athlete.

chickey2

Thanks for that. Will definitely try the diagonals this week. I was out for a run today and I'm sick of having to stop to cross the road mid run. Its not so bad on a lsr but I want to try intervals and was wondering where I could go to do them.

paddybarry

How many days so you suggest between sessions? I ask as most clubs (from what I can gather) do sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Thanks for starting this thread, it's a great resource to have.

SamforMayo

paddybarry wrote: »

How many days so you suggest between sessions? I ask as most clubs (from what I can gather) do sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Thanks for starting this thread, it's a great resource to have.

I was wondering this too. Also if running 5 days do you just add in an LSR and 2 easy days?

ECOLII

paddybarry wrote: »

How many days so you suggest between sessions? I ask as most clubs (from what I can gather) do sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Thanks for starting this thread, it's a great resource to have.

Ideally you are looking for maximum recovery between sessions, personally I would be of the opinion that a Tues/Fri schedule with a Long run on the Sunday works quite well

paddybarry

ECOLII wrote: »

Ideally you are looking for maximum recovery between sessions, personally I would be of the opinion that a Tues/Fri schedule with a Long run on the Sunday works quite well

Wednesday+ Saturday with a LSR on a Sunday. I was reading in a lot of training logs, that coaches were suggesting that LSR on a sunday on tired legs is beneficial?

ECOLII

SamforMayo wrote: »

I was wondering this too. Also if running 5 days do you just add in an LSR and 2 easy days?

5 days a week could look like this

Monday - OFF
Tuesday - Session
Wednesday - Easy
Thursday- OFF
Fri - Session
Saturday - Easy
Sunday - Long Run

paddybarry

ECOLII wrote: »

5 days a week could look like this

Monday - OFF
Tuesday - Session
Wednesday - Easy
Thursday- OFF
Fri - Session
Saturday - Easy
Sunday - Long Run

Is Easy PMP + 1min roughly?

ECOLII

paddybarry wrote: »

Wednesday+ Saturday with a LSR on a Sunday. I was reading in a lot of training logs, that coaches were suggesting that LSR on a sunday on tired legs is beneficial?

This can work also depending on your level and the intensity of the sessions, some can leave you needing a rest day especially if you are aerobically lacking (i.e the immune system will be compromised too much with the back to back element)

ECOLII

paddybarry wrote: »

Is Easy PMP + 1min roughly?

Depends on the type of athlete, if you have a high mileage background and a few years of aerobic base you might be more distance orientated at which point your easy pace might be closer to that however I feel for the majority of people MP+90 secs is a good gauge

Netwerk Errer

ECOLII wrote: »

Depends on the type of athlete, if you have a high mileage background and a few years of aerobic base you might be more distance orientated at which point your easy pace might be closer to that however I feel for the majority of people MP+90 secs is a good gauge

that slow? I usually run my easy runs between 45-65s slower than PMP depending on how I feel. Am I overcooking them? The pace feels very comfortable.

Hannibal Smith

Love it! In fact I saw a guy in the park today doing exactly what the diagram says and I wondered what the thinking behind it was.

paddybarry

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

that slow? I usually run my easy runs between 45-65s slower than PMP depending on how I feel. Am I overcooking them? The pace feels very comfortable.

Id imagine you are fine as you have a decent aerobic base and was targeting sub 3hrs in DCM.

ECOLII

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

that slow? I usually run my easy runs between 45-65s slower than PMP depending on how I feel. Am I overcooking them? The pace feels very comfortable.

This can be common enough, I think there is an element of both physical and mental conditioning here where by you can get used to running that bit faster on the easy days but too be honest the fact is that most Irish people don't have the aerobic conditioning (by this I mean a few years of high mileage) as a base to the point where we are maxing our aerobic capacity to the point we must boost our aerobic runs to a steadier state in order to gain the same physiological benefits.

I think this is something which can tend to be overlooked when people are viewing the like's of Canova's training principles for elite Kenyan Marathoners etc, we essentially overlook the years proceeding to get the body to the point where it is ready to "train"

Essentially many of us will get the same benefit by running at the lower end of our easy pace as we would the higher end without compromising the effort given to the harder workouts

Netwerk Errer

ECOLII wrote: »

This can be common enough, I think there is an element of both physical and mental conditioning here where by you can get used to running that bit faster on the easy days but too be honest the fact is that most Irish people don't have the aerobic conditioning (by this I mean a few years of high mileage) as a base to the point where we are maxing our aerobic capacity to the point we must boost our aerobic runs to a steadier state in order to gain the same physiological benefits.

I think this is something which can tend to be overlooked when people are viewing the like's of Canova's training principles for elite Kenyan Marathoners etc, we essentially overlook the years proceeding to get the body to the point where it is ready to "train"

Essentially many of us will get the same benefit by running at the lower end of our easy pace as we would the higher end without compromising the effort given to the harder workouts

Ok, I get what you're saying. "distance first, pace later" to qoute Bill Rodgers. I have seen some of Rodgers early plans where he's running 7 min/mile easy runs when he was running 2.12 in the marathon. That pace dropped to near 6 min/mile when he was running 2.09. I assume that was a natural progression as his aerobic engine got stronger and not a concious effort to increase his easy pace.

With that in mind, what are your thought's on LSR pace? Should the pace be nearly 2 min/mile slower than PMP throughout the schedule without any specific work in an aerobically weak athlete? I'm asking this because pace will also affect metabolic benefits. Is it better to run at the lower end of aerobic and sacrifice the metabolic benefits of faster pace long runs?

ECOLII

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Is it better to run at the lower end of aerobic and sacrifice the metabolic benefits of faster pace long runs?

I don't think you are actually sacrificing as as much as you may believe, the fact is that a Canova style workout would not work for the majority of us because we haven't develop the cardiovascular benefits associate with the low intensity aerobic running

Funny enough I think the DCM winner's coach eluded to this in his discussion on the training talk. While each run has its own merits in terms of physiological changes caused they should also be looked at from an overall standpoint in relation to the athletes background also (a bit like when you see recent converts from years of high mileage suddenly making huge gains from a higher intensity lower volume approach you need to look at the background to see why that worked)

1) We noticed in May that Eliud's ratio of fat/glycogen utilization was not efficient enough for marathoning, primarily as his background was steeplechase. So to train his body for utilizing fat more efficiently he needed to push his body for increasingly longer efforts at a low intensity, getting to 2+ hr runs. Zone A1 has the highest RER which means it is the optimal zone for enhancing fat oxidation. The rate of glycogen depletion is a key determinant of performance in the marathon and the best way to reduce this rate is by enhancing fat oxidation. This is a component we are very keen to develop in Eliud, but it can take over a year to observe any noticeable adaptation. His A2 zone would be what you are referring to as Canova Long Runs. Neil and I had hoped to have a fair bit of running in this zone, but as things progressed I found Eliud wasn't ready for this component in his program so I reduced the volume of A2. The priority was improving his fat oxidation. His A2 zone is something we will be integrating more and more as he matures. But he's still not ready for it yet.

Netwerk Errer

ECOLII wrote: »

I don't think you are actually sacrificing as as much as you may believe, the fact is that a Canova style workout would not work for the majority of us because we haven't develop the cardiovascular benefits associate with the low intensity aerobic running

Funny enough I think the DCM winner's coach eluded to this in his discussion on the training talk. While each run has its own merits in terms of physiological changes caused they should also be looked at from an overall standpoint in relation to the athletes background also (a bit like when you see recent converts from years of high mileage suddenly making huge gains from a higher intensity lower volume approach you need to look at the background to see why that worked)

Yeah, I agree. Canova style workouts are on a different planet for most runner's. But I think there's still a place for specific work for mere mortals. You don't have to be running a 150mpw to add specific training. A runner with 60mpw could still add specific training if they have maintained that mileage for a while and periodised properly. Don't you think so?

I also think there's a place for steady state runs in this discussion as they are great aerobic workouts. I think if your focus is on building a strong aerobic base, you should have aerobic workouts in a plan and not just easy running.

Edit: I do think we have to look at this from a relative point of view. Some runners might have built the max aerobic base they can for a certain mileage and might want to add more specific work rather than increase their overall mileage

ECOLII

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Yeah, I agree. Canova style workouts are on a different planet for most runner's. But I think there's still a place for specific work for mere mortals. You don't have to be running a 150mpw to add specific training. A runner with 60mpw could still add specific training if they have maintained that mileage for a while and periodised properly. Don't you think so?

I also think there's a place for steady state runs in this discussion as they are great aerobic workouts. I think if your focus is on building a strong aerobic base, you should have aerobic workouts in a plan and not just easy running.

I agree and in fact if you actually look at both sessions prescribed they are of an aerobic nature. I also agree with regards steady state runs being used very effectively (and I use them with most of my athletes) however these are focal sessions as opposed to supplementary long runs if that makes sense.

For the purpose of this thread though as mentioned before I feel that majority of the audience will benefit from low intensity long runs. Having said that I did mention that there will be specified higher intensity long runs added at particular times within the approach.

While the aim is to introduce people to different elements of training plans/ philosophies ultimately I aim to try and tie these into a coherent outline that will yield performance benefits for anyone who does wish to use it week on week as a general prep phase.

Netwerk Errer

I'll let you get back to it so. Apologies for the slight hijack.:)

KielyUnusual

I read about that football pitch session last year and used it when I was coming back from injury and wasn't quite ready to return to the track just yet. It's a great little session. I did it for 3 or 4 weeks increasing the time of the session each time before eventually rejoining the club session on the track. Would definitely recommend.

martyboy48

Thanks for these Ecolii, I'll look forward to giving them a go.
On the 1st session, the 10-12 mins continuous 5k pace, does this include the jogging between the diagonal pace runs, or is it just the 5k pace part?

And on this as a whole, will it be ongoing or is it for maybe 2-3 months?

Thanks again, good to have you back...

SamforMayo

martyboy48 wrote: »

Thanks for these Ecolii, I'll look forward to giving them a go.
On the 1st session, the 10-12 mins continuous 5k pace, does this include the jogging between the diagonal pace runs, or is it just the 5k pace part?

And on this as a whole, will it be ongoing or is it for maybe 2-3 months?

Thanks again, good to have you back...

I hope it includes the jogging! I did it this morning and it's harder than it sounds. Enjoyed it though.

GoTheDistance

Hi Ecolii

Im looking at DCM 2015. Recent half of 1-29. Marathon in 2013 in Amsterdam of 3:21. Looking for sub 3 this time around. In my running week I think I can definitely get one session done. Tuesdays or Wednesdays. I meet with a group on Saturdays so that should take care of my long run. How can I bridge from say my half in September past to DCM 2015? what should I do as a continuation of training until i start into a programme for DCM 2015?

THANKS in advance for any advice.

ECOLII

martyboy48 wrote: »

Thanks for these Ecolii, I'll look forward to giving them a go.
On the 1st session, the 10-12 mins continuous 5k pace, does this include the jogging between the diagonal pace runs, or is it just the 5k pace part?

And on this as a whole, will it be ongoing or is it for maybe 2-3 months?

Thanks again, good to have you back...

That includes jogging, it can be adapted to longer depending on the athlete's background/ current weekly mileage

Aim will be to keep this going indefinitely if there is still enough interest and I can continue to provide interesting sessions in a coherent format

ECOLII

GoTheDistance wrote: »

Hi Ecolii

Im looking at DCM 2015. Recent half of 1-29. Marathon in 2013 in Amsterdam of 3:21. Looking for sub 3 this time around. In my running week I think I can definitely get one session done. Tuesdays or Wednesdays. I meet with a group on Saturdays so that should take care of my long run. How can I bridge from say my half in September past to DCM 2015? what should I do as a continuation of training until i start into a programme for DCM 2015?

THANKS in advance for any advice.

Are you running outside of these two runs? I would say if the aim is 1 session a week rotate different stresses while keeping the focus towards aerobic development

So something along the lines of

Week 1 3k/5k work
Week 2 Tempo paced work (10 mile/HMP)
Week 3 10k paced work
Week 4 Long Tempo paced work (MP)

This sort of lay out will provide specific stimulus that will help build strength before you go into your next plan as best possible provided there is easy running around the two key days of the week (session and long run)

GoTheDistance

ECOLII wrote: »

Are you running outside of these two runs?

Week 1 3k/5k work
Week 2 Tempo paced work (10 mile/HMP)
Week 3 10k paced work
Week 4 Long Tempo paced work (MP)

Yes I would be getting out 5 days out of 7 for sure. 6 if theres not too much going on with work/family. But definitely 5.

So the Week 1 - 4 - should I just repeat those after I finish Week 4? How far for Week 4's long tempo run? 10 miles also?

ECOLII

GoTheDistance wrote: »

Yes I would be getting out 5 days out of 7 for sure. 6 if theres not too much going on with work/family. But definitely 5.

So the Week 1 - 4 - should I just repeat those after I finish Week 4? How far for Week 4's long tempo run? 10 miles also?

Yes repeat however this does not mean the same session you can change it up or indeed have a completely different session focusing on the same sort of pace efforts

Here is just an example

Month 1

Week 1 - 12 x 90 seconds @ 5k pace with 45 sec - 1 min jog recovery
Week 2 - 3 mile tempo @ HMP
Week 3 - 6 x 1k @ 10k pace with 2 min recovery
Week 4 - 50 minutes @ MP

Month 2 -

Week 1 - 8 x 1 min hills @ 3k effort walk back down recovery
Week 2 - 5 x 1 mile @ HMP w/90 seconds recovery
Week 3 - 14 x (1 min on 1 min off) fartlek on minute @ 10k effort, off @ MP-steady effort
Week 4 - 8 miles alternating between 1 mile @ MP, 1 mile steady

While both of the months could look completely different they have the same sort of stresses around same sessions, or the alternative is to have the sessions progressive

5k paced - Over a three month period decrease the recoveries while aiming to hold the same sort of paces

Month 1 - 1 min recoveries
Month 2 - 45 sec recoveries
Month 3 - 30 sec recoveries

(please note the above are an example layout)

With regards mileage again this depends on your background and history my ultimate advice here would be to work out based more on time and % of overall weekly mileage

There is alot of focus around the ratio of 80/20 with regards training 80 being low instensity running. If you take that into account and split over the usual 2 sessions a week I would say that no quality session should be more than 10% of your overall weekly mileage with this dropping more depending on the intensity

Rough % that would be safe for most to implement would be

1 mile- 5k pace workouts - 4-7% of weekly mileage
10k - MP pace workouts - 7-10% of weekly mileage

There is a little bit of wiggle room regards lower intensity work such as Marathon paced workouts/ Steady Long runs and athletes who are aerobically undertrained causing a bit of distortion if they are targeting longer distance races but overall those sort of figures won't steer you wrong

Also with regards time many plans designate certain distances (i.e 10x400m etc) but it should be noted that time plays a factor, take this session in relation to a 4 minute miler running these at mile pace that is 59 seconds per 400m, compare that to a 6 minute miler in order for the session to have the same sort of stresses for both athletes you would either have to change the 4 min milers session to 10x600 at the same pace or reduce the distance of the other athletes reps to roughly 250m with the same recovery. This point is crucial when looking at plans and aiming to adapt a session to your own needs always look at your relative level and how it translates to the aim of the session

To give an example of the above,take athlete a who is a 22 min 5k runner running 40 mpw

If we take those sort of figures and the sort of race times something along the lines of 8x200m w/ 30 seconds to a minute provides adequate stress to get the approriate volume and intensity from the session to see improvement

For this reason the long tempo I would aim to say what ever sort of distance your ability indicates that you can hold marathon effort for roughly between 45 min - 6 min on any given day. Obviously as you get fitter the pace will drop so it this is where tuning into how you feel makes a big difference so that in time you will learn to adapt to external factors (wind, heat rain etc) and also internal (stress, lack of sleep, fighting illness) to make sure you are getting the right effort levels to get the right training stimulus from the session.

Krusty_Clown

ECOLII wrote: »

Week 1 - 12 x 90 seconds @ 5k pace with 45 sec - 1 min jog recovery

Would this be similar to the diagonals? Was going to do the diagonals session today, but don't want to destroy the local water-logged pitch with my spikes, and have a short undulating circuit that I could use instead. So would 12 x 90s@5k + 45s recovery be similar/too much over an undulating route? It's around 27 minutes of work, plus warm up/down.

ECOLII

@KC (Damn this new user crap limiting the way I post with regards quotes links etc)

Diagonals would have a bit more emphasis on leg turnover than 5k rhythm usually for athletes as opposed to the focus solely being on the aerobic element which comes a bit more into play on the 90 sec reps but both would have a similar enough physiological benefit. the 12 x 90 seconds was more an example session (more aiming to show how sessions would look in that sort of format and how they could differ without changing the dynamics of the session.

If you were looking to repeat the aims of the diagonal can be a simple as 24x30 seconds on, 30 seconds off with the focus on running relaxed good form for the faster parts.

When using the session as a re introduction after a target race etc (Marathon being a great example) I think having short unquantifiable reps is a great way as you are basing on feel rather than set prescribed longer reps that can be comparable diagonals can work a treat much like fartlek session in that you can have a bit of flexibility in terms of the outcomes of the session depending on where you are in training and what outcomes you are looking for

Krusty_Clown

ECOLII wrote: »

@KC (Damn this new user crap limiting the way I post with regards quotes links etc)

Diagonals would have a bit more emphasis on leg turnover than 5k rhythm usually for athletes as opposed to the focus solely being on the aerobic element which comes a bit more into play on the 90 sec reps but both would have a similar enough physiological benefit. the 12 x 90 seconds was more an example session (more aiming to show how sessions would look in that sort of format and how they could differ without changing the dynamics of the session.

If you were looking to repeat the aims of the diagonal can be a simple as 24x30 seconds on, 30 seconds off with the focus on running relaxed good form for the faster parts.

When using the session as a re introduction after a target race etc (Marathon being a great example) I think having short unquantifiable reps is a great way as you are basing on feel rather than set prescribed longer reps that can be comparable diagonals can work a treat much like fartlek session in that you can have a bit of flexibility in terms of the outcomes of the session depending on where you are in training and what outcomes you are looking for

Cheers ecoliiiii. The route I have in mind is pretty undulating, so I think that it will create the variability/randomness of fartleks (and it's wood-chipping underfoot, so perfect for a first proper run back since the marathon). Will aim for 24x30 with 30 recovery.

kit3

This is probably a stupid question but what should 5k pace feel like - I just use a normal watch & will be relying on feel. Should it feel hard, flat out, relaxed hard etc. thanks

GoTheDistance

ECOLII wrote: »

Yes repeat however this does not mean the same session you can change it up or indeed have a completely different session focusing on the same sort of pace efforts

ECOLII this is absolutely fantastic. Incredible detail. Thanks for taking so much time to compile that for me. Ill need to sit down and go through it carefully. If its OK and you are not swamped I might have a few questions. Really appreciate this. Im sure if might also benefit many others on here.

ECOLII

GoTheDistance wrote: »

ECOLII this is absolutely fantastic. Incredible detail. Thanks for taking so much time to compile that for me. Ill need to sit down and go through it carefully. If its OK and you are not swamped I might have a few questions. Really appreciate this. Im sure if might also benefit many others on here.

No problem, will aim to answer any questions I can in this thread and hopefully as it progresses many will be able to chime in with their own thoughts (plenty of ways to skin a cat with regards training) or even feedback from people who do the sort of sessions I will post and what they feel works or doesn't work.

As I have said before this thread is about exposing people to different types of training philosophies and methodologies so many of the types of sessions I will add I will use myself or with my athletes but many others I will not have experience in doing/ fit in with my own overall methods with athletes (the one caveat is that I will not include sessions that I feel might be of very high injury risk or advanced to the point where you need to progress sessions to get to that point)

ECOLII

kit3 wrote: »

This is probably a stupid question but what should 5k pace feel like - I just use a normal watch & will be relying on feel. Should it feel hard, flat out, relaxed hard etc. thanks

With the high volume low recovery reps the feeling I am for is that the first few are nice and controlled i.e relaxed hard but by the last 2-3 reps you are really working to maintain pace so should feel quite hard however you should always feel like you can do 1-2 more reps and should not feel like you have nothing left.

AdpRo

ECOLII wrote: »

To give an example of the above,take athlete a who is a 22 min 5k runner running 40 mpw

If we take those sort of figures and the sort of race times something along the lines of 8x200m w/ 30 seconds to a minute provides adequate stress to get the approriate volume and intensity from the session to see improvement

Thanks for this. The bolded above is almost me (22.02 5k pb during the summer and hope to get to 40 mpw regularly but will definitely be around 35 mpw)

I would love to follow these sessions. The structure of my week would hopefully look something like Session 1 Sunday, Session 2 Wednesday and LSR Friday with 2 other easy days during the week.

My easy days would be 5 mile lunchtime runs, Wednesday session either early morning or lunchtime, could push this up to 10-12 miles which would probably suit tempo sessions, etc.

The main question I have is about the long run % of weekly miles. I am coming off the back of marathon training (a disappointing 4.23) where I averaged 35 mpw (47 mpw peak) and would like to keep some decent LSR's going over winter, up to 16 miles, as I hope to do a spring marathon (another sub 4 attempt!) The LSR was normally 35-40% of total weekly miles and looking forward over the next couple of months it probably wouldn't change much. Is this too much? How would you recommend correcting this? All I can see is more mileage which isn't really an option due to young kids or shorter LSR's which I feel would be a backwards step as stamina is my main problem.

GoTheDistance

ECOLII wrote: »

No problem, will aim to answer any questions I can in this thread and hopefully as it progresses many will be able to chime in with their own thoughts (plenty of ways to skin a cat with regards training) or even feedback from people who do the sort of sessions I will post and what they feel works or doesn't work.

As I have said before this thread is about exposing people to different types of training philosophies and methodologies so many of the types of sessions I will add I will use myself or with my athletes but many others I will not have experience in doing/ fit in with my own overall methods with athletes (the one caveat is that I will not include sessions that I feel might be of very high injury risk or advanced to the point where you need to progress sessions to get to that point)

I think that's where your skill and experience can really help us. Its very difficult for most people to be able to make sense of those training philosophies and methodologies. A lot of the time I feel that none of these apply to me. But someone like yourself can absorb the lessons in these methods and distill them out for us.

As I said I want to sit down and read your advice closely. But for certain in the future if, when I am following the schedule, I encounter problems then I'll certainly let you know here. As you said the feedback is what helps drive the improvements to any of this advice.

SamforMayo

Weetabix wrote: »

Thanks for this. The bolded above is almost me (22.02 5k pb during the summer and hope to get to 40 mpw regularly but will definitely be around 35 mpw)

I would love to follow these sessions. The structure of my week would hopefully look something like Session 1 Sunday, Session 2 Wednesday and LSR Friday with 2 other easy days during the week.

My easy days would be 5 mile lunchtime runs, Wednesday session either early morning or lunchtime, could push this up to 10-12 miles which would probably suit tempo sessions, etc.

The main question I have is about the long run % of weekly miles. I am coming off the back of marathon training (a disappointing 4.23) where I averaged 35 mpw (47 mpw peak) and would like to keep some decent LSR's going over winter, up to 16 miles, as I hope to do a spring marathon (another sub 4 attempt!) The LSR was normally 35-40% of total weekly miles and looking forward over the next couple of months it probably wouldn't change much. Is this too much? How would you recommend correcting this? All I can see is more mileage which isn't really an option due to young kids or shorter LSR's which I feel would be a backwards step as stamina is my main problem.

I will have a similar problem, hoping to train for HM in March and up the LSR but I won't be able to take the weekly miles above 40/45miles a week. So my LSR will out of portion with the rest of the week.

ECOLII

Weetabix wrote: »

My easy days would be 5 mile lunchtime runs, Wednesday session either early morning or lunchtime, could push this up to 10-12 miles which would probably suit tempo sessions, etc.

The main question I have is about the long run % of weekly miles. I am coming off the back of marathon training (a disappointing 4.23) where I averaged 35 mpw (47 mpw peak) and would like to keep some decent LSR's going over winter, up to 16 miles, as I hope to do a spring marathon (another sub 4 attempt!) The LSR was normally 35-40% of total weekly miles and looking forward over the next couple of months it probably wouldn't change much. Is this too much? How would you recommend correcting this? All I can see is more mileage which isn't really an option due to young kids or shorter LSR's which I feel would be a backwards step as stamina is my main problem.

Personally I think 35-40% of training in one run is counter productive. You are effectively over working on that that and your body is taking so long to recover that effectively nullifies the benefits gained from adding the other quality sessions. The one thing that I would highlight is the fact that there are many ways to build aerobic fitness. From 1500m up are predominantly aerobic events so even mile paced reps will have aerobic benefit.

We often look at elite training and compare ours to there's and how to adjust it down but for the purpose of the point I am about to make we will reverse that

Kenesia Bekele reportedly was doing 30 mile longs runs and roughly 150 miles a week. When you convert the paces he was roughly looking at a 3 hour run specifically at LSR pace at the peak of his marathon training

This would mean that by doing a 16 miler you are effectively working as hard as an Elite Ethiopian Marathoner without building the proper foundations which will increase your risk of injury and burn out. You are still over 20 weeks from most spring marathons at this stage you can build aerobic stamina on 2/3 fronts in the form of the sessions as well as the long run.

Think of it like this, races are the most specific work we do for any distance as they provide the exact physiological demands, so why do we do reps and other training instead of not just racing flat out every run? the reason being is recovery. If we raced a 10k every week we essentially would have no other time in the week to train rather than recover in order to get the benefits from the stress caused by the race, similarly to this the long run when we have not built up an aerobic background can take best part of a week at times which is why we cut it back to between 90 min and 2 hours, this will mean we may only get 80% of the benefits but means we are able to add a second quality day 3 days later roughly meaning where we were once getting 100% benefit from one run we might be getting 80% of the same benefits twice a week meaning that we are actually developing aerobically about 1 and a half times as much as we might have been with the focus on the long run.

As you get nearer the marathon there will be a need for specificity and at that point the runs will get longer but as you get fitter you will find that the mileage will increase as the time taken stays the same. This will mean that by the time you get to the specific work you will be able to do long runs without the need for as much recovery.

Trust me a 90 min - 2 hour run at this stage is plenty to build aerobic fitness in any runner from 2.30 marathon to 6 hours.

SamforMayo wrote: »

I will have a similar problem, hoping to train for HM in March and up the LSR but I won't be able to take the weekly miles above 40/45miles a week. So my LSR will out of portion with the rest of the week.

Same point applies your body is not a GPS watch it doesn't measure distance but rather Effort and time so once you get up in the +90 minute runs you will see benefit but trick is to balance that with other sessions in the week (IIRC my first half marathon my longest run was never over 1hr 40 and it my target because I was building fitness through cumulative fatigue rather than focusing on one run in the week.

Netwerk Errer

Just another question on the LSR's as it's a concept I'm still struggling to fully grasp and I think it would make a good discussion.
As we know, the benefits of a long run fall off a cliff past about 3 hours. Lets say you have a 3.30 marathon (8min/mile pace) runner and you want them to run their LSR's at the low end of aerobic (2min/mile slower than MP). At 10min/mile pace, their longest run in keeping with the 3 hour benchmark would be 18 miles. That long run would be reduced more and more the farther someone is from 3.30 pace. Some runners might only get 14 miles as their long run which as we know wouldn't be sufficient for marathon training.

My question is where do you draw the line between physiological benefits and psychological benefits:
Do you say keep going to that runner to keep going longer than 3 hours with little benefit to be gained from what could only be described as junk mileage?

Do you say stop at 3 hours with only 18 miles done?

Do you speed up the pace to 1.30 or 1min/ mile slower than MP so that runner gets more mileage while still keeping the benefits of that run limited to 3 hours?

It's kind of a conundrum for me because the people who will be able to get a 20+ mile long run in under 3 hours are going to be the aerobically strong runners

menoscemo

Question about long run/easy pace.
When saying MP +1-2 min/mile Would you base it off your actual marathon time or what your MP should be based on 5k/10k/HM times. As we all know, often actual MP doesn't stack up to where it should be based on shorter races and training. Also since we generally only get one chance at it a year a lot of things can go wrong on the day (such as conditions in DCM this year) with no chance to rectify it as we could if we had a dodgy 5k result.

This question is mainly for those more novice runners out there many of whom were going for say sub 4hr but ended up closer to 5 due to long bouts of walking/limping/stopping etc.

ECOLII

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Just another question on the LSR's as it's a concept I'm still struggling to fully grasp and I think it would make a good discussion.
As we know, the benefits of a long run fall off a cliff past about 3 hours. Lets say you have a 3.30 marathon (8min/mile pace) runner and you want them to run their LSR's at the low end of aerobic (2min/mile slower than MP). At 10min/mile pace, their longest run in keeping with the 3 hour benchmark would be 18 miles. That long run would be reduced more and more the farther someone is from 3.30 pace. Some runners might only get 14 miles as their long run which as we know wouldn't be sufficient for marathon training.

My question is where do you draw the line between physiological benefits and psychological benefits:
Do you say keep going to that runner to keep going longer than 3 hours with little benefit to be gained from what could only be described as junk mileage?

Do you say stop at 3 hours with only 18 miles done?

Do you speed up the pace to 1.30 or 1min/ mile slower than MP so that runner gets more mileage while still keeping the benefits of that run limited to 3 hours?

It's kind of a conundrum for me because the people who will be able to get a 20+ mile long run in under 3 hours are going to be the aerobically strong runners

This is a very good point to make and one which could probably be be answered a hundred different ways by a hundred different people and you would still be none the wise as to what is the "correct approach"

I made a point on a previous post a couple of months that at first probably seems a little contradictory. I mentioned that athletes should not be running a marathon in their first 2-3 years of running because there body is not prepared to handle the long runs yet the single greatest workout for a Novice marathon at the same time is those +20 mile runs (bear with me for a moment here to explain)

People taking up the sport from nothing to aim to do the marathon in 6-12 months (at the low end but even in the 2-3 years range the point is still applicable) simply can't handle the training required, even if you get past the injury/illness risk and arrive at the start line more often than not a resilience has allowed you to tolerate training as opposed to adapting. A LSR at easy pace by its nature should not leave you wiped out for the day and in general phase i.e (anything from 12 weeks to further roughly out from a marathon) should not be a focus session but rather supplementary.

However if they have their heart set on doing the marathon before their body is prepared for to handle the training well then you have to weigh up not the best approach but the best way to get them as efficiently around the course as their body will allow and to do that you focus on the LSR as it is the most specific stimulus that will give you the best bang for your buck in the short term.

A good analogy of this is the cortisone injection that footballers would get to continue on in a Cup final, long term its not gonna fix things but it may just be enough to get them through the remainder of the game.

There are ways which you can change the dynamics of a long run to get good aerobic boosts without crossing that threshold. Personally I am a fan of rotation between time on feet easy LSR's and Steady Long runs of about 75% of the distance roughly half way between easy and Marathon pace, throw in Marathon Paced tempos and you really have a good set of ingredients to hugely boost your aerobic fitness without fatiguing the muscles to the point where injuries start popping up (I regularly see clients suffering from injuries as a result of hip instability due to muscle fatigue in the last few miles of LSR's during marathon season)

I would advise at least once getting the amount of time on your feet you plan the marathon to be but other than that I think the risk/reward ratio is to great. In short term you may hit your target but ultimately I think this approach hinders long term development. IMO there is no reason why 3.10-3.20 is physically an achievable target for majority of the general public (this is not commenting on approach of anyone not running those times as other external factors do play a role such as life, other commitments, personally choices etc come into play)

(Hope this answers your question if not I can specify down on particular points as this was more a general response)