**Spoilers** Series 8, Episode 12 - "Death in Heaven"

tommy2bad

smacl wrote: »

Watching it the kids, they were mildly shocked when Osgood got zapped, but Missy then standing on her glasses drew laughs all round. A bit cold perhaps, but proper Master style humour. We were also gobsmacked how a cyberman managed to drag the rather chunky looking Indian chap through such a tiny aeroplane window.

Wasn't the strongest episode, but I enjoyed it right up to the point Santa made an appearance. Not holding out much hope for the Christmas special.

Santa played by Nick Frost!! nomenclature predeterminism!

Dr Bob

Mr Bloat wrote: »

I'd imagine there will be a fair bit of fan irritation at Osgood's death. She was 'one of us', a fan of the Doctor, enjoyed a bit of cosplay, a bit geeky and to give her an undignified death like that was poor, I thought. Just before the Master threatened her, I had been thinking that she would make a good companion!

Coupla things .
Right so.. they killed off a character who in a previous episode had (for a while at least) had a doppleganger.

Dying isnt really much of a barrier to being a companion.
Clara kicked the bucket twice before being a regular.
Ditto Martha (think that was her name ..not sure as I avoided the RTD era mostly)get killed , but come back as a compainion later (as her own cousin or something?).
So there was a bit of a fan uproar when a liked character was killed (basically just to show how badass missy was).And the fan uproar showed how much the character was liked.

(Alsoduring the 'extra' there was obligatory mention by that actress playing her that its scifi and you never know if a character will be brought back, although I think every actor who's been killed off gets to say that ).
So ..if the show wanted her back as a companion its a fairly easy writer handwave to say ' oh that wasnt me, that was my mate the zygon who thinks she was me ..or I'm the zygon who thinks shes her, it all got messed up and we didnt know how was who ..anyway very sad now lets do the time and space bucket list thing'.
I'm not saying its going to happen , but it wouldnt suprise me.


oh one more tin-foil hat theory
I play the Dr Who Legacy android game (its qute good by the way, you should try it)..and as part of that they add in background characters/companions etc as playble characters, them being currently alive or dead isnt an issue ..anyway here's a quote from the website on the latest update: http://www.tinyrebelgames.com

So -- Osgood Osgood....Osgood has been unavoidably delayed. We'll give you an update on her when we have one, rest assured. But meanwhile, we can't hold up the content any longer. Sooooo. This weekend we will release all of the following..

like I said , being dead isnt an issue (the brig was in it for aaages) but a character changing from being a background character to a companion would require a total overhaul..possibly

Mr.Saturn

Freeman Aygeman played a background role at the end of series 2, getting slaughtered by the Cybermen. When she was cast as Rose's replacement, they retconned it to being Martha's cousin.

This season seems to have favoured an anti-climactic approach, and I don't mean that in negative way. It's just the absence of any 'I am The Doctor' moments, or well, grandstanding versions of which a la Tennant and bits of Smith, really brings it circle what Moffat's trying to do in terms of deconstructing the auld 'Lonely Angel/Vengeful God' shtick that's dotted Nu-Who.

I like it for the most part, it kinda reframes The Doctor as not this fantastic, all-powerful, all-knowing entity and lands him more at being amazing because he's just a guy, passing through, driven by a curiosity and helping whenever/wherever needed. Really stands out with Capaldi, by making The Doctor his most alien, we find him at his most human.

tommy2bad

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

Freeman Aygeman played a background role at the end of series 2, getting slaughtered by the Cybermen. When she was cast as Rose's replacement, they retconned it to being Martha's cousin.

This season seems to have favoured an anti-climactic approach, and I don't mean that in negative way. It's just the absence of any 'I am The Doctor' moments, or well, grandstanding versions of which a la Tennant and bits of Smith, really brings it circle what Moffat's trying to do in terms of deconstructing the auld 'Lonely Angel/Vengeful God' shtick that's dotted Nu-Who.

I like it for the most part, it kinda reframes The Doctor as not this fantastic, all-powerful, all-knowing entity and lands him more at being amazing because he's just a guy, passing through, driven by a curiosity and helping whenever/wherever needed. Really stands out with Capaldi, by making The Doctor his most alien, we find him at his most human.

This!

martingriff

tommy2bad wrote: »

I was thinking more of Orson Pink's dad or gran dad. Clara did seem to have some 'news' when she contacted the doctor. If you get what I mean!

Theirs lots to criticise in this ep, it's basically the killing joke rewritten, cybermen with souls, not just one but two! unforgivably killing Osgood and whats worse using her glasses not her inhaler as a signifier! But overall it held to the themes of the season. The doctors uncertainty about his moral position, lying, Soldiers and officers and the sacrifices they make. The nature of heroes. I think if we ignore the plot holes (this is Who, we do it all the time) this series was one of the best of nu who.
And hitting that note on remembrance weekend, had to be intended.

Could be a signifier it was the alien who was disguised as her and not her

pixelburp

God the FX really were terrible throughout, almost on the level of a Scy-Fy original movie at this stage. I've banged this drum throughout the series and maybe I'm boring people to tears, but as this episode was one of the heaviest FX-wise it just made the tiny budget feel all the smaller with the unconvincing clouds, airplane and CGI Danny at the end. It has become so distracting and while it's all well and good to chat about Dr. Who of yesteryear getting by with micro-budgets, it's just not good enough in the days when stuff like Game of Thrones can look like a Hollywood blockbuster. While the direction can be pretty effective and commendable, the show really ... well, looks like sh*t at times

Not a brilliant finale either to be honest, it felt curiously understated and not necessarily in a good way. Maybe we're all just a bit too used to the splashy, bombastic finales of yore but I just didn't feel like I was watching a grand culmination of events. Maybe there's something to be said for the big-bads after all, where we're keen to find out how the Doctor survives dying Lake Silencio, or what Torchwood represented. Here it was all about ... uhm, the Doctor and Clara lying to each other, even as they part company. Marvellous. I mean sure, I praised the decision to give Clara some depth to her character, but it didn't seem to pay off with anything worthwhile.

I'm fairly confident that 'death' of Missy was fake, and she'll return at some point. I mean it's the Master after all, that's what he/she does. Her scheme was pretty demented, and is somewhat similar to most of her previous schemes: it was often fairly heavily implied that the plans were just a desperate attempt to gain approval / friendship from the Doctor.

And yes, while I'm gutted as well they killed off Osgood (even if I don't think she'd have been a good foil for Doc #12), I'm relieved Kate survived. She's no Alistair Lethbrige-Stewart, but she got the best line of the episode to be honest:
"Human weaponry is not effective against Cyber technology."
"Sorry, you left this behind on one of your previous attempts."

tommy2bad

And yes, while I'm gutted as well they killed off Osgood (even if I don't think she'd have been a good foil for Doc #12), I'm relieved Kate survived. She's no Alistair Lethbrige-Stewart, but she got the best line of the episode to be honest:
"Human weaponry is not effective against Cyber technology."
"Sorry, you left this behind on one of your previous attempts."

Actually I found that a bit off, something about displaying severed heads..... Oh and the remembrance day salute the soldiers struck me as a cave in to the mood of the time. In spite of it being entirely in keeping with the doctors story arch. Still a show that has carved a unique place as anti militarism seems to have changed sides and is now in 'support our boys' mode.
I still loved,I thought the effects were spot on the colour cast was exactly right, evoking 70's si fy.

Chopper Dave

Have to say I found the finale and the overall season a bit meh. The sense of fun has gone - maybe the series is back too long at this stage. Also, you can see that the effects budget has been cut to shreds as compared to earlier series - there wasn't much travelling through "time and space" this year. For me, one of the main reasons the classic series was canned was because the look and feel of the programme became very dated when compared to other TV at the time. Is that about to happen again?

Re the finale, I don't understand what the point of Missy was overall. It could just have been a cyberman finale and I don't think the episode would have been that different. Lots of unanswered questions (why put the Doctor and Clara together, how did s/he escape, etc and I don't get the sense we will be getting those answers anytime soon). You never got the sense that the Doctor was being challenged at all as the Tennant and Smith doctors were from time to time. To the extent there was an arc around the Netherworld it was demolished within 10 seconds of it being explained by Missy to the Doctor (Here's an army...I don't want it...)

It's a shame really as they had made a big deal of the series being rebooted last year at the end of the 50th anniversary. I think there was a good opportunity there and it hasn't been taken up. It will be interesting to see if the Christmas special does well in the ratings. I suspect it won't be the crowd puller it has been in recent years.

pixelburp

tommy2bad wrote: »

Actually I found that a bit off, something about displaying severed heads..... Oh and the remembrance day salute the soldiers struck me as a cave in to the mood of the time. In spite of it being entirely in keeping with the doctors story arch. Still a show that has carved a unique place as anti militarism seems to have changed sides and is now in 'support our boys' mode.
I still loved,I thought the effects were spot on the colour cast was exactly right, evoking 70's si fy.

Like I said the direction was fine, often pretty eye-catching and it's something I've loved about the latter series, with some decent use of colour correction to evoke moods, but the shoddy CGI just broke the spell every time it cropped up.

Mr.Saturn

Osgood's getting lamped was both amplified and foreshadowed in The Doctor's "Hmm, all of time and space" quip.

Over/under on an Osgood companion referencing different Docs each week?
Right time for it considering there's now 13 Docs and 13 episodes (including Xmas) a season.

Doctor DooM

Cheers for the spoiler, Children in Need

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Am I the only one who couldn't stand Osgood and cheered when Missy zapped her in the finale?

tommy2bad

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Am I the only one who couldn't stand Osgood and cheered when Missy zapped her in the finale?

:eek:
Wouldn't want her in every episode but man thats cold!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

tommy2bad wrote: »

:eek:
Wouldn't want her in every episode but man thats cold!

Ah no, she was like Tumblr personified with her scarf Doctor outfit the last time and her bow tie and converse this time. She was too much of a suck up to the Doctor too which ironically (maybe?) was her undoing in the end.
I was genuinely terrified they were lining her up to replace Clara. That's why I cheered when Missy zapped her.

Sonics2k

Meh. Just a great big meh.

I couldn't find any reason to be impacted emotionally. The ending with the Master was just odd. It made no sense for her to do a complete turn around on her grand plan.

Danny died, which I guess is good. But my god was it a desperate attempt at being a tear-jerker. How was he possibly able to fight the takeover of his body and mind, unlike every other person.

Capaldi was good as always, not great, but good.

Over the last few weeks I've watched over the series from Eccleston onwards, and the scene where he regenerates still gets me, the loss of Rose, Tennents regenerations, Rory and Amy (who I never really loved) still make me sad in how they go, even Smiths final speech brings a tear to my eye. Every single season finale has gotten me in some way, and throughout this entire episode I could think nothing but "meh.".

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Sonics2k wrote: »

Meh. Just a great big meh.

Danny died, which I guess is good. But my god was it a desperate attempt at being a tear-jerker. How was he possibly able to fight the takeover of his body and mind, unlike every other person.

The switch thingy switched off their emotions and they were trying to imply that love is deeper and stronger than just a feeling and that's how Danny's love for Clara was strong enough and deep enough to remain after his emotions were switched off.

The Brigadier guy was able to save his daughter too for the same reason.

Over the last few weeks I've watched over the series from Eccleston onwards, and the scene where he regenerates still gets me, the loss of Rose, Tennents regenerations, Rory and Amy (who I never really loved) still make me sad in how they go, even Smiths final speech brings a tear to my eye. Every single season finale has gotten me in some way, and throughout this entire episode I could think nothing but "meh.".

It's funny, I've noticed the reaction to this series seems to be split down the middle. Some love it, think it's the best of New Who and some hate it, think it's the worst of New Who. The funny thing is the reasons some love it seem to be the exact same reasons some hate it.

I guess if you (generally) haven't warmed to Capaldi and/or don't like Clara then this season will have been a complete bust for you. Personally I loved it. I've only seen the Matt Smith series' and was never that impressed by any of it. I've loved Capaldi and I think his chemistry with Jenna Coleman has been fantastic and the conflicted relationship between the Doctor and Clara has been great to watch through out the series.

I would say Danny and Clara's relationship was probably the week point of the series and that's probably because it didn't get a lot of screen time to develop but maybe that was supposed to show the sort of duel life that Clara was leading, I don't know. I believed Clara was grieving in Dark Water though even if I didn't really feel Danny deserved it. If you know what I mean.

I found the last scene between Clara and the Doctor far sadder than the Danny stuff, if I'm honest.

pixelburp

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I would say Danny and Clara's relationship was probably the week point of the series and that's probably because it didn't get a lot of screen time to develop but maybe that was supposed to show the sort of duel life that Clara was leading, I don't know. I believed Clara was grieving in Dark Water though even if I didn't really feel Danny deserved it. If you know what I mean.

I found the last scene between Clara and the Doctor far sadder than the Danny stuff, if I'm honest.

That last scene was a great piece of understatement, something Dr. Who often struggled since its return in 2005. Two friends basically ostensibly lying to each other to protect their feelings, but mostly lying to themselves.

The relationship with Danny was nice, and quite sweet in places, but it felt massively undercooked at times, which if I'm honest was often a problem with most things in this series (as much as I might seem to have enjoyed it). It went from a secret flirtation between professionals to true-love in the blink of an eye. Like her or loath her, Amy's love for Rory felt earned and pretty well-defined from the beginning, which made the emotional beats pay-off that much more. (I still remember her touching, lovely monologue about Rory being the most beautiful man she ever met)

Angron

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Cheers for the spoiler, Children in Need

What happened?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

pixelburp wrote: »

That last scene was a great piece of understatement, something Dr. Who often struggled since its return in 2005. Two friends basically ostensibly lying to each other to protect their feelings, but mostly lying to themselves.

Yeah, given that lying was a major theme/issue throughout the whole of series 8 it was pretty sad that in the end they were still lying to one another, even if for what they thought were the right reasons, thinking they were doing right by the other. Thank God for Santa though, eh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Angron wrote: »

What happened?

It was just a tiny clip from the Christmas episode but it showed

Clara was in it

which I had assumed anyway but maybe some people hadn't.

aunt aggie

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It was just a tiny clip from the Christmas episode but it showed

Clara was in it

which I had assumed anyway but maybe some people hadn't.

If people don't want spoilers, why watch a clip from an episode that wont air for another month and a half. I thought someone here had referenced it, which would be bad form but cant find any comments that do.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

aunt aggie wrote: »

If people don't want spoilers, why watch a clip from an episode that wont air for another month and a half. I thought someone here had referenced it, which would be bad form but cant find any comments that do.

Well, I can't speak for others, but I kind of thought it was some sort of special one off thing they'd done for Children in Need that they were going to show rather than just a clip from the Christmas special. So it's possible people may have tuned in thinking the same and gotten spoiled?

aunt aggie

I actually didnt watch it on the telly. Its clearly labelled as an episode clip on youtube, I assumed it would be introduced as the same on bbc. Last years children in need was a preview clip as well.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

aunt aggie wrote: »

I actually didnt watch it on the telly. Its clearly labelled as an episode clip on youtube, I assumed it would be introduced as the same on bbc. Last years children in need was a preview clip as well.

Well, as I said, I don't think it was really a spoiler as the end of Death in Heaven pretty much confirmed what the clip showed anyway.

Duckjob

Sonics2k wrote: »

Danny died, which I guess is good. But my god was it a desperate attempt at being a tear-jerker. How was he possibly able to fight the takeover of his body and mind, unlike every other person.

In the "afterlife", wasn't Danny given the option to consent to having his emotions deleted? I seem to remember him wavering over the option on an iPad and then deciding not to go through with it, hence the need to use for the manual override on his cyberman suit. I figured that was why he and some others would have still control awareness as cybermen. Might be wrong about that though.

FWIW, my first reaction was a bit meh, but when I watched it a 2nd time I was more impressed. Yes it had its plotholes but it I thought it a bold (and somewhat unsettling storyline. I've always loved Dr Who most when was a bit dark as opposed to silly, and I think these dark storylines really allowed Capaldi to shine. Much as I've enjoyed the previous 2 doctors, IMO he does dark far more convincingly that either of them. I loved the "never trust a hug" line by the Doctor at the end and Capaldi delivered it.

CramCycle

Have to say Capaldi saved the episode for me, never was a fan of Clara but Matts doctor took over, the writers seem to insist on using her this season and it uncovers her weaknesses as a character (a bit 2D) and as an actress in Who (a bit 2D).

Felt bad for Pink, a good actor, you could feel his love for her, although I thought it was obvious for most of the season, she never felt the same, not completely anyway. Although that episode where they meet what would appear to be their child threw me, particularly his death which was brilliantly done, best few minutes Clara has acted since she started.

Overall, I liked Capaldi from the beginning but thought the writing had been poor, the last few episodes picked that up, plotholes aside, I have felt the season pick up from the Orient express, nice mix of old and new doctor who IMO.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CramCycle wrote: »

Have to say Capaldi saved the episode for me, never was a fan of Clara but Matts doctor took over, the writers seem to insist on using her this season and it uncovers her weaknesses as a character (a bit 2D) and as an actress in Who (a bit 2D).

Felt bad for Pink, a good actor, you could feel his love for her, although I thought it was obvious for most of the season, she never felt the same, not completely anyway. Although that episode where they meet what would appear to be their child threw me, particularly his death which was brilliantly done, best few minutes Clara has acted since she started.

Overall, I liked Capaldi from the beginning but thought the writing had been poor, the last few episodes picked that up, plotholes aside, I have felt the season pick up from the Orient express, nice mix of old and new doctor who IMO.

Have to disagree there. I think Coleman's a great actress, miles better than Gillan was as the companion. The character of Clara wasn't great with Smith's doctor but that's because she was more of a plot point than an actual character. Thought she was much better written this series.

CramCycle

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Have to disagree there. I think Coleman's a great actress, miles better than Gillan was as the companion. The character of Clara wasn't great with Smith's doctor but that's because she was more of a plot point than an actual character. Thought she was much better written this series.

I think she is a good actor, I just think the writing or her character (can't tell which) is poor this season. Last season it wasn't important, she was, as you say, a plot device. I never felt Gillan was a good actress but her character was well written, or at least developed, IMO.

I got the feeling this season they were trying to either use her to hide Capaldi or something stupid, but the writing in particular was poor. If she was genuinely meant to have feelings for Pink, it was well hidden. She had some stand out moments but overall, she was overused.

Maybe its the writers fault and not hers, her highlights for me were the "addict" moment and the 3rd and 2nd last episodes. Her first episode was good as well, made her real, the looks bit throwing her.

Maybe I am wrong though, maybe she was meant to give the impression that she didn't really love Pink, if that's what she was meant to do (which would have made it more realistic) then she accomplished it well.

Might go and re watch it all again.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CramCycle wrote: »

.

Maybe I am wrong though, maybe she was meant to give the impression that she didn't really love Pink, if that's what she was meant to do (which would have made it more realistic) then she accomplished it well.

I got the impression that she did love him as much as she was capable of but unfortunately it wasn't enough. She said it herself before she zapped him with the screwdriver that she hadn't been very good at it but she did love him.

She was trying to keep her two lives separate and for, I think, the right reasons, but in the end it meant she literally had 2 separate lives and she had been lying to herself as much as she had been to Danny and the Doctor. Lying again being one of the major themes that ran throughout the series.

Also, although Danny clearly loved her more than she loved him, or in a different way to how she loved him, they were at two very different points in their lives which was made clear in the episode with all the trees. He was ready to settle down, to give his life to one person because he'd already experienced as much of life as he wanted to. She on the other hand had spent her whole life up until the Doctor arrived in the one place doing the one thing. Had they met a few years down the line they probably would have worked amazingly but I thought it was pretty obvious from the start that it was never going to really work for them. Maybe the experience of losing him will now put her in the same place as he was in before but of course it's too late now.

Just my opinion though

OU812

I've finally caught up (Xmas episode too), but I'm confused as hell. If Danny is dead, how come we have the astronaut at the end of the universe (complete with family heirloom toy soldier)?

Or is it all time wibbly wobbly wobbly stuff again ?