**Spoilers** Series 8, Episode 12 - "Death in Heaven"

Dreamy Weamy

Doctor DooM

OU812 wrote: »

I've finally caught up (Xmas episode too), but I'm confused as hell. If Danny is dead, how come we have the astronaut at the end of the universe (complete with family heirloom toy soldier)?

Or is it all time wibbly wobbly wobbly stuff again ?

It's a plot point that I think will be addressed in the next season. Have you seen the Christmas special yet?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Isn't it possible though that the time line can be changed? At the point when they met Orson that was how their timeline was going to play out but then through various adventures in time and space the timeline was changed and Orson doesn't exist anymore?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Isn't it possible though that the time line can be changed? At the point when they met Orson that was how their timeline was going to play out but then through various adventures in time and space the timeline was changed and Orson doesn't exist anymore?

Face it, Danny's alive:D

OU812

Doctor DooM wrote: »

It's a plot point that I think will be addressed in the next season. Have you seen the Christmas special yet?

Yup, watched it this mornng.

Still not satisfied with capaldi, I think the PG/PG13 nature of the show is hampering his potential. The relationship is also wrong between Clara & "her dad"

flazio

Might not be a direct parent to child time line between Orson and Danny, could have been a brother or sister of Danny. Clara might not even be involved.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

flazio wrote: »

Might not be a direct parent to child time line between Orson and Danny, could have been a brother or sister of Danny. Clara might not even be involved.

Orson said there was a story in the family that a great great granny was a time traveller, or something to that effect, implying Clara, but nothing was ever confirmed.

Doctor DooM

OU812 wrote: »

Yup, watched it this mornng.

Still not satisfied with capaldi, I think the PG/PG13 nature of the show is hampering his potential. The relationship is also wrong between Clara & "her dad"

I don't know, I'm enjoying the fact that it's different to the last 7 years of assistants having the hots for Docs!

Doctor DooM

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I don't know, I'm enjoying the fact that it's different to the last 7 years of assistants having the hots for Docs!

Donna certainly did not have the hots for her Doctor. But yeah other than that

Das Kitty

Deleted User wrote: »

Donna certainly did not have the hots for her Doctor. But yeah other than that

Yeah, but guest characters did during her time.

OU812

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I don't know, I'm enjoying the fact that it's different to the last 7 years of assistants having the hots for Docs!

I think there's added tension when they do though. With Clara & Capaldi, the "Hots were initially there before he regenerated & then it was just confusion & I think that's what puts me off. He's still the same man that she was attracted to, but he looks different & I don't think that dynamic works as well. The next companion should have an easier time of it (unless they're the same age).

I do think they missed a trick not having this regeneration be female/black/asian/American or any combination thereof. He's an alien & doesn't always have to have to be Male Caucasian with an English/Welsh/Scottish accent.

Hopefully with the master becoming the mistress this time, they've opened the door for a female doctor.

Would have been a nice twist if Clara had actually turned out to be the Doctor in this season... (I'm still confused over the whole "impossible girl" scenario)

But he is not the same man(ish). Same memories and pretty much the same view of right and wrong but personality wise a different person.

Why is there such a bloody wish for the Doctor to be a woman?? FFS there are not enough male role-models that use brains to solve the day as is. Can people not leave well enough alone.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why is there such a bloody wish for the Doctor to be a woman?? FFS there are not enough male role-models that use brains to solve the day as is. Can people not leave well enough alone.

While I understand the desire to see more women in lead roles and better roles, not just house wife or ball busting career woman, I personally see no need for the Doctor to be a woman. A bit of diversity would'nt go astray though. Matt Smith being quite young is about as much as they have strayed from older white man. I disagree with your reasoning though. There's a shed load of shows with male leads using brains to save the day. BBC's other big show springs to mind straight away.

As far as women go I'm happy to see the companion developed into a fully fleshed out character. Obviously they're always going to be in awe of the Doctor but the way they've had Clara challenge him this season and not just swoon about after him and do everything he says without question is as important as having them make the Master a woman or the possibility of making the Doctor one.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

While I understand the desire to see more women in lead roles and better roles, not just house wife or ball busting career woman, I personally see no need for the Doctor to be a woman. A bit of diversity would'nt go astray though. Matt Smith being quite young is about as much as they have strayed from older white man. I disagree with your reasoning though. There's a shed load of shows with male leads using brains to save the day. BBC's other big show springs to mind straight away.

As far as women go I'm happy to see the companion developed into a fully fleshed out character. Obviously they're always going to be in awe of the Doctor but the way they've had Clara challenge him this season and not just swoon about after him and do everything he says without question is as important as having them make the Master a woman or the possibility of making the Doctor one.

I did not say that there are not examples of such just that there are not enough.

Apologies here but to which other big show do you refer?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I did not say that there are not examples of such just that there are not enough.

Apologies here but to which other big show do you refer?

Sherlock.

I think if you were to sit down and think about it there are plenty of shows like that. How many detective shows are there where it's male leads? Luther, A Touch of Frost, Midsummer Murders, Jonathan Creek, Foyle's War and that's just English ones and off the top of my head.

Scott & Bailey and Happy Valley are the only two examples of shows that I can think of with female leads doing the same jobs as men where they're written as serious characters and aee not light hearted fluffy shows aimed at your mum or your granny.

I haven't seen Broadchurch so I can't say how Olivia Colman stacks up next to Tennant and Silent Witness makes an effort but it's mostly a procedural show so none of the characters are overly developed.

They are not shows aimed at kids though and Luther is certainly not a role model!!
(Forgot about Sherlock, for shame)

We all forget that Doctor Who is a kids show (well young adolescent rather than CBBC), that is why I mention the role model aspect of it

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They are not shows aimed at kids though and Luther is certainly not a role model!!
(Forgot about Sherlock, for shame)

We all forget that Doctor Who is a kids show (well young adolescent rather than CBBC), that is why I mention the role model aspect of it

I would say it's a family show rather than a kids show but I take your point. I'm not that up on kids TV these days so I can't argue one way or the other on that.

pixelburp

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Sherlock.

Hardly a role-model though? Before series 3 fell in love with its lead character, the scripts openly referred to him as a sociopath and while yes is a hero who uses his wits to win the day, he's not someone to look up to - the Doctor is, or at least is meant to be something of an aspirational figure.

I've always had some reservation about the whole 'Lonely God' angle, or the arcs that present the Doctor as calculating or ultimately ruinous to people's lives: it has dirtied the notion of the Doctor as an aspirational character, someone kids might like to be.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I think if you were to sit down and think about it there are plenty of shows like that. How many detective shows are there where it's male leads? Luther, A Touch of Frost, Midsummer Murders, Jonathan Creek, Foyle's War and that's just English ones and off the top of my head.

Scott & Bailey and Happy Valley are the only two examples of shows that I can think of with female leads doing the same jobs as men where they're written as serious characters and aee not light hearted fluffy shows aimed at your mum or your granny.

I haven't seen Broadchurch so I can't say how Olivia Colman stacks up next to Tennant and Silent Witness makes an effort but it's mostly a procedural show so none of the characters are overly developed.

I think the detective genre, while fair game (to a point, most TV detectives have personal lives that are utter disaster areas), doesn't really overlap with the kind of demographics Doctor Who speaks to, and should be at least aware of in its approach. Mainstream media, particularly media that's consumed by younger generations, is still flooded with lead characters who are the quintessential alpha-males, whereby you solve your problems with force or physical determination. Doctor Who is a rare breed that is happy to tell kids "Hey you know what? It's ok to be scared and those who use violence are usually the more cowardly". Capaldi's "Fear as a super power" speech was a perfectly encapsulation of this ideology and how the show speaks to its main audience, and the fact the Dr. is a man is actually the more bleeding-edge approach.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Hardly a role-model though? Before series 3 fell in love with its lead character, the scripts openly referred to him as a sociopath and while yes is a hero who uses his wits to win the day, he's not someone to look up to - the Doctor is, or at least is meant to be something of an aspirational figure.

I've always had some reservation about the whole 'Lonely God' angle, or the arcs that present the Doctor as calculating or ultimately ruinous to people's lives: it has dirtied the notion of the Doctor as an aspirational character, someone kids might like to be.



I think the detective genre, while fair game (to a point, most TV detectives have personal lives that are utter disaster areas), doesn't really overlap with the kind of demographics Doctor Who speaks to, and should be at least aware of in its approach. Mainstream media, particularly media that's consumed by younger generations, is still flooded with lead characters who are the quintessential alpha-males, whereby you solve your problems with force or physical determination. Doctor Who is a rare breed that is happy to tell kids "Hey you know what? It's ok to be scared and those who use violence are usually the more cowardly". Capaldi's "Fear as a super power" speech was a perfectly encapsulation of this ideology and how the show speaks to its main audience, and the fact the Dr. is a man is actually the more bleeding-edge approach.

Better phrased than I could have

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I do see your point when looking at it as a show kids are watching.

I think from that point of view the idea of the companion being a well developed person in their own right being more important than the Doctor being a women is even more relevant.

If you've got young boys looking at the Doctor thinking they'd like to save the day using their brains instead of their fists it's important for the young girls watching to see someone hold their own against him without having to compromise who they are and not bowing down to him.

The funny thing is that the shouts for a female Doctor and other similar conversations are probably doing a disservice to the younger generation. In an ideal world there would be more equality in gender and race representation on TV and it wouldn't even have to be something that young kids thought about. As it is it almost feels like kids are being told they can only look up to people who look exactly like them. While I understand the importance of seeing people who are like you in the media, especially in terms of race, surely kids of either gender should be able to take the good aspects of any character and aspire to be like them? That's why I think well written characters are more important in most cases. The Doctor and Clara feel like equals this series which is something I never felt before with this show. Although I've only seen Matt Smith's Doctor before Capaldi.

Anyway. .... bit of a tangent we've gone on here.

Yeah but in a weird way it is relevant.

We had Donna not in awe of her Doctor but she was his friend and conscience. She was shown as being morally strong rather than really intelligent (shown in how much she was willing to die as Doctor Donna than return to regular Donna).

Clara is being shown to be strong morally and very intelligent (and perhaps even more-so than she lets on) and also not afraid to call the Doctor up on his new colder personality traits. So we have a new, strong, fleshed out and vibrant female character in the show and the reaction has been that of really liking her or extreme hate.

Now I don’t see kids hating her so where is that coming from?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

^ An excellent point.

Any opinions I see on this show are coming frim the Internet so I assume it from people at least mid teens upwards.

People do seem to have a problem with a more fleshed out Clara because it means the Doctor isn't getting all the spotlight. It would be interesting to see how many of those who hate Clara being more central than before also wanted a female Doctor?

As I said before I'm all for better representation of women on TV but I think in this case they've managed to do that with Clara in a believable way whereas making the Doctor a women for no particular reason, just because the public demanded it, would've been a mistake.

Doctor DooM

I'm 100% ok with the doctor being a woman or whatever really as long as the show makes me laugh and think, I'm good with it.

I DO think Doctor who with its positive LGBT characters and message that no one is unimportant is one of the last programmes that needs this constantly thrown at it. Isn't there much more thoughtless, mean spirited programmes that need a change like this?

When Ianto was killed in Torchwood I listened to a podcast (I think Radio Free Skaro, but I can't remember exactly ) where they had some people in to talk about heteronormatisation in TV, and damn my priviledge but I'd never thought before about how the average TV soap, for example, turns a character gay as a reason to get rid of them, or they're allowed be gay and comic relief, but that's it. Who has gay soldiers, action heroes, grannies, and lizards.

Who mightn't be Whedon but there's a load of strong, fleshed out female characters (seriously I love Vastra so much) and while, yes, they could probably do more, as someone who was the lonely kid who didn't like football in 80's Ireland (an absolute crime at the time in the schoolyard- no seriously, if you didn't live through that time as a boy in Ireland when there was nothing else you will probably not understand) and would rather have his head in a book, and was just judged as weird by many, the Doctor was important to me.

Now, I'm NOT doing that MRA thing where I'm going look at me. I AM saying that someone in a position of priviledge can still have bad things happen to them and the Doctor is a rare figure- really rare, as someone pointed out Mr I-shoot-people-when-it-comes-down-to-it Sherlock doesn't count- that tells kids like that it's ok to be the way you are. I actually think that helps everyone.

OU812

Doctor DooM wrote: »

as someone who was the lonely kid who didn't like football in 80's Ireland (an absolute crime at the time in the schoolyard- no seriously, if you didn't live through that time as a boy in Ireland when there was nothing else you will probably not understand) and would rather have his head in a book, and was just judged as weird by many

Holy ****, you're me.

Mr Bloat

OU812 wrote: »

Holy ****, you're me.

No actually, you're both me.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I'm 100% ok with the doctor being a woman or whatever really as long as the show makes me laugh and think, I'm good with it.

I DO think Doctor who with its positive LGBT characters and message that no one is unimportant is one of the last programmes that needs this constantly thrown at it. Isn't there much more thoughtless, mean spirited programmes that need a change like this?

When Ianto was killed in Torchwood I listened to a podcast (I think Radio Free Skaro, but I can't remember exactly ) where they had some people in to talk about heteronormatisation in TV, and damn my priviledge but I'd never thought before about how the average TV soap, for example, turns a character gay as a reason to get rid of them, or they're allowed be gay and comic relief, but that's it. Who has gay soldiers, action heroes, grannies, and lizards.

Who mightn't be Whedon but there's a load of strong, fleshed out female characters (seriously I love Vastra so much) and while, yes, they could probably do more, as someone who was the lonely kid who didn't like football in 80's Ireland (an absolute crime at the time in the schoolyard- no seriously, if you didn't live through that time as a boy in Ireland when there was nothing else you will probably not understand) and would rather have his head in a book, and was just judged as weird by many, the Doctor was important to me.

Now, I'm NOT doing that MRA thing where I'm going look at me. I AM saying that someone in a position of priviledge can still have bad things happen to them and the Doctor is a rare figure- really rare, as someone pointed out Mr I-shoot-people-when-it-comes-down-to-it Sherlock doesn't count- that tells kids like that it's ok to be the way you are. I actually think that helps everyone.

I wish I could have written that, it pretty much sums up everything I would have said.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I DO think Doctor who with its positive LGBT characters and message that no one is unimportant is one of the last programmes that needs this constantly thrown at it. Isn't there much more thoughtless, mean spirited programmes that need a change like this?

What really shocked me was after Deep Breath aired the BBC got a load of complaints about the Vastra/Jenny kiss. I thought it was hilarious in some ways but also quite sad. I mean it was more of a life saving giving of air than a kiss and it was between a time travelling lizard lady and her Victorian ninja wife but people still found the need to complain. If you're a kid watching that you're probably just seeing one person save another person but the parents seem determined on telling them otherwise.

A lot of shows do still introduce a gay character or a something else character as a plot point for the main characters. We get a story line where the main character is accepting and tolerant of whoever it is and then they're packed off somewhere where they don't have to be developed beyond the initial stereotype. I think South Park address this issue perfectly with their token black character called Token Black.

And then you get shows where they do actually have a gay character who is well developed and whose sexuality is irrelevant to their involvement in story lines and the audience decides they want someone else to be gay instead and harass the internet with their ideas. I don't watch Teen Wolf but I've read about it. There's a gay character, he's not central to the main story but he's there, he's a jock, he's a million other things, his sexuality is never in question but it's not a big deal either. But then viewers decide they want two of the main characters to be gay instead even though they've been written as straight from the start. I just don't get this. I know some people do realise late in life that they're gay or don't have the courage to come out until they're much older but generally speaking people don't just wake up one day and decide they're gay, right? So it seems to me a little like people demanding a female Doctor but then complaining when they make a real effort to give us a central female character on level pegging with the Doctor.

Which I suppose brings me back to my point about Clara being a well developed, strong but flawed woman who is central to the story. As a woman I am far more interested in seeing that happen more regularly than seeing a female character shoved in my face and the only thing they're saying is LOOK IT'S A WOMAN AND SHE'S IN CHARGE but she's a one dimensional character that I don't see anything of myself in. The reason I mention the gay stuff above is because I assume gay people would rather see themselves represented on TV as real people who also happen to be gay than as loud and proud stereotypes or previously written as straight people who suddenly decide to be gay just so the people in charge can say they've tackled LGBT issues.

That's the thing, people are calling for the doctor to be a woman... just because.
Instead of a reason why the show needs it you just get "Well why not??"

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

That's the thing, people are calling for the doctor to be a woman... just because.
Instead of a reason why the show needs it you just get "Well why not??"

Exactly. In an ideal world the sex of the Doctor would be irrelevant and they'd cast someone who was really good and brought something new and different and who fit with whatever story arc they had planned for the new Doctor and people would react to who the person was rather than what they were.

Alas we are not in a perfect world and people seem intent on shouting about what they want and ignoring the smaller steps necessary to get to that ideal point.

connemara man

just wondering could Clara be pregnant from the last bits of the relationship with Danny (she doesn't find out/cop till start of season 9) and thats how you have the family heirloom tie in?

CramCycle

connemara man wrote: »

just wondering could Clara be pregnant from the last bits of the relationship with Danny (she doesn't find out/cop till start of season 9) and that's how you have the family heirloom tie in?

That would have been my guess, how much time had passed when they met in the cafe though, seemed like a few weeks if not months?