Swimming for Tri Beginners

Kurt Godel

A couple of people have mentioned that fins might be useful for kick drills- if you are finding the kick drills tough, by all means wear a pair of training fins (example being the Finis fins). Ditto you can wear the fins for any of the drills if required- fins can help a swimmer who suffers from sinking legs to hold better form through the water, and these next couple of months will all be about holding good form.

(I don't use fins much myself, so if anyone with a bit of experience wants to chime in about them, please feel free)

peter kern

kiss
I think Kurts explanation includes what everybody needs to know at this stage.

the only thing to add most male atheltes especially with a running background do struggle with kicking so dont despair if you get nowhere. At the same time try not to get totally dependand on fins.

Shorter fins usually better

Kurt Godel wrote: »

A couple of people have mentioned that fins might be useful for kick drills- if you are finding the kick drills tough, by all means wear a pair of training fins (example being the Finis fins). Ditto you can wear the fins for any of the drills if required- fins can help a swimmer who suffers from sinking legs to hold better form through the water, and these next couple of months will all be about holding good form.

(I don't use fins much myself, so if anyone with a bit of experience wants to chime in about them, please feel free)

Peterx

Hi Kurt,
Thanks for setting this thread up - swimming is good for anyone.

Swim Experience: didn't learn properly, can bludgeon up and down a pool slowly due to being comfortable in pools and being able to breathe.
Can you breath bilaterally?: Yes
Current 100m time: Will find out tomorrow, probably 2:30
Current 400m time: Will find out soon, probably 11:00
Tri race experience: One. the Liam Bell in Derry, pool swim which I was pulled out of the pool from to let the next wave in.
Open Water experience: Very little. I sometimes become nauseous and vomit in seawater so tend to avoid. Did one lake 750m swim in Glendo.
Furthest distance swam: 750m
Any Other Relevant details: Swimming is good rehab for my previously broken collarbone

ToTriOrNot

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Breathing

To be a good swimmer, you must be able to breath with ease. This is the single most important factor in holding back progress- if you struggle for air, you will struggle to swim. If you panic in a scrum during a Tri start, and start to hyperventilate, your race is as good as over. If you find yourself gasping for air when swimming, you will likely be poisoning your blood with excess CO2, and tense up and lose form.

Exercise
To be completed at your leisure, when next in the pool.
1. From a standing position, let yourself fall slowly backwards underwater, as you exhale slowly and constantly. Either say "mmmmmmm" and exhale through the nose, or make a motorbike "Brmmmmm" sound and exhale through your lips. Fall slowly down to the bottom; repeat a few times.

*note- the correct way is to have expelled all your air by the time you come up take take a fresh breath. Just breathe in sufficient air to keep you to the next breath, you shouldn't need to gasp or fill your lungs. Relax, and slow down your pace if required.

While I didn't do the whole exercise, I did try to fall to the bottom...and I couldn't. I tried and tried but i just float!!! now while I don't hold my breath fully, it seems that I do hold it a bit at the start of the stroke....trying to conserve the little air I can't get in...Even in normal day life I seem to struggle with breathing, as in find my breathing is out of sync and that I don't have enough air...any tips on how to fix this?

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Week 1 Programme


Day 1
200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
4*50 fingertip
4*50 pb
4*50 armpit tap
4*50 sw
200 swim down
15 sec rest after each drill, all done at comfortable pace. More experienced swimmers do two sets (ie after 4*50 sw, start again on 4*50k and continue...)

I did this (more or less, I try to do it from memory....which can be good sometimes, but atrocious others!!! I did 5 of each instead of 4, and didn't do the sw part..Also, couldn't rest 15 secs in between drills as, while lane wasn't overly busy, there was people doing leisure swimming up and down...so if I let them go before me, I would have had to wait for a good while before going again ....all in all fell good, I have a bit of shoulder pain today....but probably more to do with the circuits class I did after the swim rather than the swim....I am still struggling with a crossover...I am finding it very hard to correct it, having never seen myself in a video while swimming.....
Fingertip drill felt very awkward, underarm touch drill felt better...kick drill proved I have no legs power whatsoever..they took forever...so I ended up with fins for this..which probably defeats the purpose!!!!

Overall, I think it was a very good session!!!

Oryx

I also struggled with crossover, and probably still do a bit. What I was told was to reach out at shoulder width - think wide. Your middle finger of the reaching hand should point in the direction you want to go when extending.

ToTriOrNot

Oryx wrote: »

I also struggled with crossover, and probably still do a bit. What I was told was to reach out at shoulder width - think wide. Your middle finger of the reaching hand should point in the direction you want to go when extending.

I saw a video where they were explaining shoulder wide, and saying think of your hands as clock hands and put them in 2 and 10 position....but according to my observant husband I am still crossing over!!!!!! it's so hard to correct when you don't see yourself doing it!!! More practice needed I think!

Oryx

ToTriOrNot wrote: »

I saw a video where they were explaining shoulder wide, and saying think of your hands as clock hands and put them in 2 and 10 position....but according to my observant husband I am still crossing over!!!!!! it's so hard to correct when you don't see yourself doing it!!! More practice needed I think!

Find a friend who has a gopro!

Kurt Godel

One simple way to help correct crossover is to hold a small rod (think of a 30cm ruler) at one end, held out in front as you swim. Grab the other end with the other hand, and repeat.

If you wanted to consider technique paddles, the Finis Freestyler will teach correct entry and also help with crossover. (Not to be confused with strength paddles which are too soon to introduce for novices)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sibkmd5OsVU

griffin100

My 2c on crossing over............imagine you are climbing a ladder and are reaching for the outside of the supports when climbing.

RacoonQueen

griffin100 wrote: »

My 2c on crossing over............imagine you are climbing a ladder and are reaching for the outside of the supports when climbing.

I've been told to just keep going wider cos I'm not going as wide as I think I'm going

KillianByrne

First opportunity to get into the pool this morning and it was thoroughly enjoyable to have a structure to follow. Being in a 20m pool, I made the sets 4*60...

Kick board - I felt this was really really slow not using the arms. Where is my head during this, I kept it down, lifting it up in front to breathe. Should I lift front to breathe or turn to the side and breathe?

Finger tip - Familiar with this from previous lessons. felt good. need to concentrate hard not to slip back into a normal stroke.

Pull Buoy - I felt good during this, was getting a good glide through the water being able to concentrate on stretching out. Where is the board held? Between the thighs, between the knees or ankles? I had it just below the knees.

Armpit tap - most difficult to maintain for the complete distance. Easier when I got a decent twist on the torso.

Swim - all ok.

200 swim down - is this all front crawl or as a cool down can it be a mix of crawl, backstroke, breaststroke etc?

With regards to the 15sec rest - is it 50meters -> 15second rest -> 50meters -> rest etc etc or 200m kick board -> 15sec rest -> 200m Finger etc etc?

Overall feel really good, I've got some back issues at the moment and while it was a little sore during, I feel good now. overall level of fatigue during was no more than 7/10 at any stage.

Thanks for this Kurt, look forward to getting back in.

EDIT: Pull Buoy between the thighs - I've reread the instructions!

The Lost Sheep

KillianByrne wrote: »

First opportunity to get into the pool this morning and it was thoroughly enjoyable to have a structure to follow. Being in a 20m pool, I made the sets 4*60...

Kick board - I felt this was really really slow not using the arms. Where is my head during this, I kept it down, lifting it up in front to breathe. Should I lift front to breathe or turn to the side and breathe?

Finger tip - Familiar with this from previous lessons. felt good. need to concentrate hard not to slip back into a normal stroke.

Pull Buoy - I felt good during this, was getting a good glide through the water being able to concentrate on stretching out. Where is the board held? Between the thighs, between the knees or ankles? I had it just below the knees.

Armpit tap - most difficult to maintain for the complete distance. Easier when I got a decent twist on the torso.

Swim - all ok.

200 swim down - is this all front crawl or as a cool down can it be a mix of crawl, backstroke, breaststroke etc?

With regards to the 15sec rest - is it 50meters -> 15second rest -> 50meters -> rest etc etc or 200m kick board -> 15sec rest -> 200m Finger etc etc?

Overall feel really good, I've got some back issues at the moment and while it was a little sore during, I feel good now. overall level of fatigue during was no more than 7/10 at any stage.

Thanks for this Kurt, look forward to getting back in.

EDIT: Pull Buoy between the thighs - I've reread the instructions!

From experience of sets with tri club(3 years) and a swim club(11 years) on breathing during kick sets. Personal Preference. If you prefer breath to side or to front.
I would always have pull buoy between thighs. If its too low its nowhere near as effective
For the swim down/cool down I would do a mix of freestyle and backcrawl. Never generally do breastroke but that's just me.

griffin100

Those of you starting your swim training could do worse than read this - http://loneswimmer.com/2014/01/10/advice-for-new-year-swimming-resolutionistas/

It has some great nuggets of advice for new swimmers. In fact anyone with an interest in open water swimming should read this blog, it's a fantastic website and you can spend ages following links to other swimmer blogs and forums.

Kurt Godel

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Day 1
200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
4*50 fingertip
4*50 pb
4*50 armpit tap
4*50 sw
200 swim down
15 sec rest after each drill, all done at comfortable pace. More experienced swimmers do two sets (ie after 4*50 sw, start again on 4*50k and continue...)

KillianByrne wrote: »

With regards to the 15sec rest - is it 50meters -> 15second rest -> 50meters -> rest etc etc or 200m kick board -> 15sec rest -> 200m Finger etc etc?

"4*50 k... 15 sec rest after each drill"
Means you rest 15 secs after each of the 4 kick drills (and then move on to the 4*50 finger)

If I'd wanted the other way I'd have written "200k, 15 sec rest, 200fingers, 15 sec rest..."

(edited for effect- I asked my coach a similar question one time and got a similar response which stayed in my mind )

trailrunner

Great to see this up and running, speaking from experience can I just say no better man to get people swimmimg than KG, he put together a coached swim session for the club three year back and the results have been pretty amazing to date. Keep up the good work KG.
Ps : our set tonight was 20x100s =15sec rest.. ,!! That's how far everyone has come along to date.!!!

career move

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Week 1 Programme

Day 1
200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
4*50 fingertip
4*50 pb
4*50 armpit tap
4*50 sw
200 swim down
15 sec rest after each drill, all done at comfortable pace. More experienced swimmers do two sets (ie after 4*50 sw, start again on 4*50k and continue...)

Today was the first opportunity I had to do this. My Dad went off with the paddle and pb in his jeep so I had to improvise a little.

200 easy: 200 backstroke.
4*50 sw: ok but I felt a bit heavy in the water
4*50 fingertip: first 50 was a bit of a shock to the system, concentrating on something other than breathing. I got the hang of it pretty quickly with my right hand but it was more challenging with the left. I found it easier to work the left as well if I was breathing twice on the right, once on the left
4*50 sw: these felt better and I noticed was making more of a shape with my hand entering the water after the previous drill
4*50 armpit tap: found these hard work and I needed to rest at each wall. I felt like I was doing it right and I could feel myself rotating more
4*50 k with board: one of the lifeguards was just finished a swimming lesson and he let me borrow one of his boards. It wasn't very buoyant though but it did the job and I had to work really hard with my legs to keep myself going
200 swim down: 200 alternating backstroke and fc

Enjoyed that and the time flew by with all the different drills. It was in the water 70min in total

Kurt Godel

Purpose: when your arm is underwater (this is called the "catch and pull" phase), it should be slightly bent at the elbow, as opposed to being rather straight. A lot of novice swimmers keep their arm too straight, and so lose a lot of power. Here's a great little example of the difference in power between doing things correctly and doing things incorrectly. It was the first low-hanging fruit plucked on my initial coached lesson, and is a powerful example of how to do it right.

You can do this anywhere today, but you'll need a second person. Standing upright, hold your arm out straight in front of your body. Have a partner push downwards on your hand, as you try to resist. Notice the ease in which they push down.
Now do the same, but this time with a slight bend (circa 30˚to 40˚) at the elbow. Notice how much more resistance you have as they push down.

This is because when your arm is straight, you are only using the small muscles of your shoulder. With a slight bend, you bring in all the muscles down your side, and so can generate a lot more power. And generating power efficiently is the difference between a good swimmer and a poor one.

Kurt Godel

This video gives another good reason to have a bent elbow. (And for those who mentioned crossover earlier, may contain some nuggets).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAMq9rSzyU

Kurt Godel

Week 2 Programme

Three days, spread over the week. We're going to build on the drills and breathing from last week. Everything below should be swam at a comfortable pace (except where indicated), the goal is to focus on control and breathing in the water. Steady, steady, steady.

Day 1
200 easy
4*100 as (25m pb, 25m kick (use your pb as a board), 25m pb, 25m kick, 15 sec rest)
2*50 fingertip
2*50 pb
2*50 armpit tap
2*50 sw
8*25 (breath every 3 strokes first 25, breath every 5 next 25, and repeat. Full rest/recovery for as long as you want at each wall. Do these very slow, very controlled, focus on exhaling smoothly and constantly)
200 swim down

(15 sec rest after each drill, all done at comfortable pace)

Day 2
200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
20*50m steady pace throughout, 5 sec rest after each 50m. Don't make the mistake of starting the first 50's too fast! (if you are struggling take 10 secs rest between each 50)
200m swim down

Day 3
200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
100m
200m
300m
400m
300m
200m
100m
200 swim down

Steady pace throughout. They should feel controlled, but tough enough that you want the rest. 15 sec rest after each. Less confident swimmers can omit the 400m

SargentDuck

career move wrote: »

4*50 fingertip: first 50 was a bit of a shock to the system, concentrating on something other than breathing. I got the hang of it pretty quickly with my right hand but it was more challenging with the left. I found it easier to work the left as well if I was breathing twice on the right, once on the leftl

Concentrating on fingertip and on the armpit completely removed my ability to breathe bi-laterally. For me it was as extreme as having to breathe on every second stroke two the right. When I tried to bring it all together I was rolling far too much causing legs to kick nearly horizontally and for me to look pretty ridiculous

tunney

One could argue that the amazingly frustrating balance drills could have a very significant impact here

career move

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Week 1 Programme


Day 2
200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
3*100 off 2:40
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:30
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:20
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:10
1 min rest
200 easy
Steady pace for each 100. With the variance in peoples abilities, these times are used for guidance until we have a better idea of paces. Be aware of hand entry when doing this set, think of your fingertip drill and how the hand enters, fingers pointed down. More experienced swimmers do 4*100 or 5*100 of each.

I'm still on Wk 1. Last week was mental time wise for me but this week should be better. I felt much more comfortable in the water. My breathing was better and I wasn't gasping for breath after one length! The kick drills are tough even with a proper board. I felt like I was stuck in the same spot for ages and at one stage I thought I was actually going backwards. I started off the 100's at too fast a pace and could only manage 75m before I had to stop. Did 4 reps then had to take a toilet break and it was only when I started off again that I realised I had been going too fast. Felt like I was making a good shape with my arms. Tried keeping my arms slightly bent at the elbow and my fingers pointed downwards entering the water. Didn't have a watch so no idea of times. Just shortened the recovery times .....

200 easy alternating fc and backstroke
4x75m 30secs recovery
3x100m 20 secs recovery
3x 100m 10 secs recovery
300 easy backstroke

Kurt Godel

SargentDuck wrote: »

Concentrating on fingertip and on the armpit completely removed my ability to breathe bi-laterally. For me it was as extreme as having to breathe on every second stroke two the right. When I tried to bring it all together I was rolling far too much causing legs to kick nearly horizontally and for me to look pretty ridiculous

Perhaps try the drill with fins. You need to keep a kick going- kick isn't just about propulsion, its also about stability. Also make sure your head stable- if the head is rolling around the place, the body will follow.

But above all practice the drills more. The armpit drill especially can exaggerate a roll, but its worth persevering with. Try doing the drill for 25, then swim for 25, and consider what is different between each. Introduce the high elbow of the armpit drill into your swim. The goal of a drill isn't good overall form during the drill, but to teach you the correct way to do things when you are swimming.

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

One could argue that the amazingly frustrating balance drills could have a very significant impact here

I'm sort of wary in overloading too many drills at this stage- but its more important that people learn to swim correctly, so what drills do you mean? (Alternating breathing side single arm? Something else?)

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I'm sort of wary in overloading too many drills at this stage- but its more important that people learn to swim correctly, so what drills do you mean? (Alternating breathing side single arm? Something else?)

Front Balance.

Arms by side. face in water. light flutter kick. if body position is wrong you'll sink or go nowhere. When you master this you feel like you are swimming downhill. Breathe by rotating to side.

Side balance.

At a 45-60 degree angle in the water with lower arm extended light flutter kick. Like front balance. if body position is wrong you'll sink or go nowhere. Rotate head to breathe.

Kurt Godel

career move wrote: »

My breathing was better and I wasn't gasping for breath after one length!

That's good- gasping is the one thing that holds back progress. You should never be gasping in the water except in the final 50m of a tough swim race...

career move wrote: »

The kick drills are tough even with a proper board. I felt like I was stuck in the same spot for ages and at one stage I thought I was actually going backwards.

Kick is one drill that will get better with practice. For the moment, speed doesn't matter in the kick, that will come. Focus on pointing your toes, breaking the surface with your heel, and "kick from your hips" rather than your knees.

career move wrote: »

I started off the 100's at too fast a pace and could only manage 75m before I had to stop.

Perfect- these 100's are about solid consistent speed. Its good you recognised you were going too fast. Better to stop and rest at 75 than to flounder the last 25 with terrible form. (Better still to slow down and do all 100m consistent )

rainbow kirby

Did the week 1 day 3 session yesterday - had to slightly modify it because I swim in a non-standard length pool (30m/33 yard). Ended up doing 240 warmup, 4*60 kick, 4*400 yards/360m alternating swim/pull buoy, 180 swim for a total of 2,100m. Pretty good session overall! I did feel though that my technique was falling away a little towards the end of the second swim 400 and very noticeably in my cooldown. Cooldown may have been the time to add in a few lengths of backstroke, but the lane I was in was getting very crowded as it was rapidly approaching the 7pm peak so I just wanted to be done.

Does anyone else feel really uncoordinated for a bit when switching back to swim after a relatively long pull buoy interval, or is it just my own incompetence?

Kurt Godel

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I did feel though that my technique was falling away a little towards the end of the second swim 400 and very noticeably in my cooldown.

Form dips when the body gets tired- often with a dramatic loss of speed. Its to be expected at the moment. Over the winter we'll work on this, so that you will be confident in holding technique even when tired. Oftentimes you'll find yourself going faster if you "slow down and concentrate on form", which seems counter-intuitive but it works a charm

KillianByrne

I am currently 'on hold' with a back / disc issue. Waiting on input from physio if the swimming will be a help or hinderance to my current predicament. I'm not dropping out, just waiting!

Kurt Godel

KillianByrne wrote: »

I am currently 'on hold' with a back / disc issue. Waiting on input from physio if the swimming will be a help or hinderance to my current predicament. I'm not dropping out, just waiting!

Don't know if they are connected, but using the pb lower down on the legs can put a strain on the lower back.

<Snip Kurt should know better than to give Medical Advice>