Swimming for Tri Beginners

ToTriOrNot

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Kick drills with fins on are grand, kick drills without fins are the spawn of satan himself :pac: I feel like I'm going absolutely nowhere with them a lot of the time.

I do them without the fins..maybe that's where I was getting it all wrong!!!

I love love using the fins for other drills, and I feel the focus should be on the arms...so fins help in that case.....but again, can't understand how I can be so smooth with the fins and desperate without them.......

Kurt Godel

ToTriOrNot wrote: »

Question regarding kick drills? AM i the only one that hates them? At some stage yesterday I felt I was going backwards. Is that even possible?
What needs to be done to get better (please don't tell me we need to increase our kick drills...It's bad enough as it is!!!)

Regarding kick drills- if you hate them, you're more than likely doing them right! A lot of newbies come to Triathlon from a running or biking background, and think that because their leg muscles are well developed, they'll be good at swim kicks. Not so! Kick comes from the hips and the core, so you can expect to be slow at them unless you've a well-developed (I almost wrote "well-rounded":)) core.

You'll get better at kick drills by persevering at 'em- sorry! Alternatively, if they are stopping you going to the pool because you hate them so much, alternate 25 kick, 25 catch-up with board. You hold the board ahead with one hand, swim and swap hands with the other. Make sure you are kicking all the time though!

Kurt Godel

ToTriOrNot wrote: »

I love love using the fins for other drills, and I feel the focus should be on the arms...so fins help in that case.....but again, can't understand how I can be so smooth with the fins and desperate without them.......

Fins mean you have a correct ankle extension. In case this is an issue, try pointing your toes as far back as possible when doing the kick drills.

I'd suggest perseverance rather than doing the kick drills with fins though... fins have their place but are too much of a crutch for kick drills. (Anyone have a differing opinion to that?)

TopOfTheHill

First off, I am not a coach and just lately returned to swimming after taking a 25 yr break since the teenage years.

I am hoping to do a sprint triathlon next year, so thanks for all the advice here - will start your sessions after christmas, as there are too many distractions and would be constantly interrupted over the coming weeks

Personally, I would think using fins for kick drills would be defeating the purpose of them, but maybe I do not understand what kick drills are used for.

Are they to build kicking stamina and strengthen your kick?

ToTriOrNot

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Regarding kick drills- if you hate them, you're more than likely doing them right! A lot of newbies come to Triathlon from a running or biking background, and think that because their leg muscles are well developed, they'll be good at swim kicks. Not so! Kick comes from the hips and the core, so you can expect to be slow at them unless you've a well-developed (I almost wrote "well-rounded":)) core.

You'll get better at kick drills by persevering at 'em- sorry! Alternatively, if they are stopping you going to the pool because you hate them so much, alternate 25 kick, 25 catch-up with board. You hold the board ahead with one hand, swim and swap hands with the other. Make sure you are kicking all the time though!

I don't have any sports background, hehehe, and yeah I must be doing them very well as I hate them with passion. they don't stop me from going to the pool, but I just don't like them, but do them as I see they are a necessity.
I think I kick from the hips alright, and I am trying really hard to get my 3 year old to do the same, heheh, not always works! About the core, well, let's say it got lost a long time ago, and I am working on getting it back!!!

Kurt Godel

TopOfTheHill wrote: »

Are they to build kicking stamina and strengthen your kick?

Yes and yes to an extent- a strong kick is also very useful at the start of a race to avoid getting boxed in, during the race to quickly move up to a bunch in front, and of course at the end when arms are tiring.

But I think at this level the kick drills are most useful for bringing stability into the overall athletes stroke. A good flutter kick will bring stability and efficiency to your swim and will have you swimming on top of the water. A bad kick will cause the legs to sink, and so your arms are having to overcome unnecessary drag.

woody1

at the beginning of last year when i started coached sessions we were doing loads of kicking, i flutter kick like a nut and go nowhere , i was getting seriously peed off with it, to the extent of thinking about getting out of the lane and going home, the coach though told me that my kick was actualy ok , in terms of what it was meant to be doing, which is what kurt says, keeps your legs high reduces drag.. ( at my level, obviously the idea is to get some propulsion from it too eventualy )
i still hate kicking drills though.. on top of that i did a fair bit of swimming in the wetsuit this year and have gotten very lazy with the kicking and the legs are dragging now..

MojoMaker

I don't know whether or not you take inspiration from watching truly elite swimmers in the pool but on the off chance this floats your boat have a look at 1500m freestyle Olympic champion Sun Yang's stroke and note the leisurely but consistent kick pattern for about 1300m of his world record before he unleashes a very powerful 6-beat kick with 100 to go. For 90% of the race he uses his 3-beat kick to maintain stability and body position, probably drawing 5-10% propulsion from it. In the final 100m that figure would rise to maybe 30% over a very short period of acceleration, but the difference is staggering. In triathlon swimming you can't sustain that kind of kick over the distances we swim but you need to master the muscle memory for kicking so that you can use a simple balancing kick to aid your swim position, plus as Kurt says, give you a boost over the first 50/100m and the last 50/100m.

Race starts about 5:20 into the clip and the really big kick change is at 19:03 (100m to go) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FlDy3YmDQ

iwillhtfu

I got a loan of a set of medium swimming paddles last day I was in the pool. I was surprised how much of a work out on the arms they are my arms felt weightless when I swam a few lengths after.

One question is there a technique to breathing when using a kick board is it still a case of breathing to the aide. It starts to feel a bit awkward after a few lengths. Should I be lifting my head up instead

MojoMaker

You should be doing the kick drills head up / chin on the water anyway!

iwillhtfu

MojoMaker wrote: »

You should be doing the kick drills head up / chin on the water anyway!

Head entirely out of the water? I better YouTube this.

iwillhtfu

Hmm seems I've been making an arse of the kick drills. Every days a school day. Oops.

Kurt Godel

iwillhtfu wrote: »

One question is there a technique to breathing when using a kick board is it still a case of breathing to the aide. It starts to feel a bit awkward after a few lengths. Should I be lifting my head up instead

Your head should be in the water, breath to the side if you can, but most will find it easier to breath by lifting the head up.

Position of head in the water: on dry land, stand up straight and extend the arms as high as they will go. Look straight ahead. Your biceps should be slightly behind the ears, and you are aware of your shoulders coming together. Thats streamlined. Try it in the pool as you kick (holding the board ahead of you). Don't hold your breath, exhale constantly and get in a rhythm of lifting your head enough to take on air.

iwillhtfu

Ah no to bad so I was doing that just felt a little awkward turning for a breath with both hands out front. Someone mentioned I might be straining my back breathing to the side.

Bart86

100m Time Trial|Nov '14|Dec|Jan|Feb|March|April|May|June'15
ainsyjnr|1:47.01|||||||
strummer_ie|2:10|||||||
career move|2:49|||||||
Rainbow Kirby|1:57*|||||||
ToTriOrNot |2:09|||||||
bart86 |1:51|||||||


done my day 3 week 3. I really enjoyed this session. However the session 2, week 3, the sets 400pb, I had to split them between 200 swim and 200pb. I am not comfortable with a pb, i am not sure why but I lose my streamline form with it.

career move

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Week 3 Programme
Day 1
200 easy
4*100 as (25m pb, 25m kick (use your pb as a board), 25m pb, 25m kick, 15 sec rest)
8*25 (breath every 2 strokes first 25, breath every 3 next 25, and repeat)
3*50 fingertip
3*50 pb
3*50 armpit tap
3*50 sw
200 swim down
(15 sec rest after each drill, all done at comfortable pace)

For the 8*25, have all air emptied from your lungs by the time you go up to take a breath, so exhale constantly underwater, then take a small breath. The key here is to have all air expelled, and just take enough on board to get to the next breath. Be aware of how little air you actually need to swim smoothly and with control. Do these slow, very controlled, focus on exhaling smoothly and constantly. You should not be gasping to take on air, not explosively letting air out- and at no stage hold your breath!

I did this yesterday. I find the kick drills easier when I'm using the pb as opposed to the board. My arms get less tired. I liked the 8 x 25m drill. I found it easy to breathe on 2 if I concentrated on my stroke and it seemed to give me a bit of propulsion as well. I alternated the odd 25's between breathing when the left arm was forward and when the right arm was forward. I only did 2 x 50 for each drill instead of 3 and I didn't do the cool down because I had to go

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Day 2
200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
50 swim, slow, focus on controlled breathing
300 swim, steady pace
50 swim, slow, focus on controlled breathing
400pb, steady pace
50 swim, slow, focus on controlled breathing
300 swim, steady pace
50 swim, slow, focus on controlled breathing
400pb, steady pace
200m swim down

As much rest as required between each. The object to keep your breathing controlled for the longer 300/400's

I did this today. I only did 1 x 50 k with the pb cause I'm doing the jingle bells 5k on Saturday and I've had 2 hardish run days and I don't want my legs in mush. I did everything else and it went well. I'm not sure if there was much of a difference in pace between my 'slow' and my 'steady' but my breathing was very good. I love the pb and I was focusing on keeping my stomach tight and my ankles flexed and doing a good stroke while I was doing it. After the first 400 pb, for the 50 sw and for the first 100m of the 300 I felt like my legs were sinking a bit but after that I didn't notice it

ainsyjnr

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Day 2
200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
3*100 off 2:30 (or whatever your slow pace is)
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:25 (slow pace minus 5 seconds)
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:20 (slow pace minus 10 seconds; this pace should feel "steady")
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:15 (slow pace minus 15 seconds; this pace should feel "fast")
1 min rest
200 easy
Steady pace for each 100. More experienced swimmers do 4*100 of each.

Interesting data from my watch on this one. I found it difficult to judge pace as well.

The first 100 I took really easy and relaxed and came in on 47 strokes in 1:52 which is only a 5 seconds off my 'fast' time. I then tried to slow down and was around 2:02 off 50 strokes. Then when I tried to pick it up for the last 3x100 putting in some serious kicking and effort I came in at 1:53 with 54 strokes...Obviously I was just splashing alot and my form must have gone to pot.

I think this is telling me that I need to 'bed in' my stroke more by staying a little slower and relaxed. Over time when I try and speed up I will hopefully have ironed out some inefficiencies and developed more strength so that there is more of a difference in speed. This is how it works in running, you have to build the base first before speedwork. Is that the same in swimming once you have some semblance of technique?

(not sure if the watch is just counting left arm only or both, I will have to check (Garmin 910xt)

Kurt Godel

Bart86 wrote: »

I am not comfortable with a pb, i am not sure why but I lose my streamline form with it.

There can be a lot of reasons for this, and an internet diagnosis is limited. But most likely it may be that you miss the balance provided by kicking feet. Perhaps try focussing on keeping a steady head when using the pb (ie watch out that your head/shoulders aren't rocking all over the place)

career move wrote: »

I found it easy to breathe on 2 if I concentrated on my stroke and it seemed to give me a bit of propulsion as well. I alternated the odd 25's between breathing when the left arm was forward and when the right arm was forward.

There's lots of ways to breathe- its best that everyone learns to breathe bilaterally, but then you can choose to breathe any way you want, so long as you are getting enough oxygen. Sounds like its going well for you so far though!

ainsyjnr wrote: »

I think this is telling me that I need to 'bed in' my stroke more by staying a little slower and relaxed. Over time when I try and speed up I will hopefully have ironed out some inefficiencies and developed more strength so that there is more of a difference in speed. This is how it works in running, you have to build the base first before speedwork. Is that the same in swimming once you have some semblance of technique?

Personally I'm wary of drawing parallels between run training and swim training. They are fundamentally different in their approach (I know not everyone on this forum would agree with me though). Certainly staying slower and more relaxed (relaxed is the important bit) can make you swim faster if it means you have better form. However for the moment the correct form is being discovered through speedwork (in that we are doing short reps but the goal is for longer Tri-distance races).

If you're doing the swims, and are considering all the time what is working for you in the water, then you're doing it right. You might find that form "clicks" when you sprint (and are swimming streamlined and high), but notice you get tired pretty quickly and form starts to dip. Or you could do long slow swims and fell like you could cruise forever. But the shorter stuff for the moment will be more useful in finding correct form, and that will be applied over the coming months when we start doing longer sets (remember, the goal is to finish a 750, 1,500, 1,900, or 3,800 swim fast and efficiently).

The drills will be most useful in ironing out any inefficiencies. You will apply and test this to your stroke during the short reps. That feeds back more, you do more drills, and before you know it you swimming well and efficiently for longer distances.

KillianByrne

Dipping in and out here, no swimming for me due to previously mentioned injury, surgery next week to correct it.

I'm keeping notes for a January return hopefully!

Kurt Godel

"Feel for the water" week

This next week is a consolidation week, where we will try and bring together the techniques we have learned, and apply them in a very relaxed manner. The goal throughout this week is to consider what is streamlined form, what is swimming high, what is correct position. Throughout this week, maintaining correct form is vastly more important than fast times, so everything should be done at a comfortable, steady pace. (Of course, sometimes swimming at a faster pace will lead to streamlined form, so if it takes going faster, do it... the main point is good form). Throughout the week, consider what is working for you, and what isn't working.

Day 1 Mantra- "streamlined means less drag"

Lie face down in the water, and float to a horizontal position. Your heels should just break the surface. This is the body position you will aim for throughout the workout.
200m warm up
20*50, alternate pb and swim
Heels should just break the surface of the water, toes pointed back at the wall you swim from. Imagine there is a small tube lying flat just under the water surface, circumference is just bigger than your shoulders. You are aiming so swim through this imaginary tube without hitting its sides. Calm, controlled, push off the wall to start with a torpedo effect and try and keep that position to the end of the pool.
300m swim down

Day 2 Mantra- "I have enough oxygen on board"

From a standing position, let yourself fall slowly backwards underwater, as you exhale slowly and constantly. Make a motorbike "Brmmmmm" sound and exhale through your lips (or say "bubblebubblebubble"). Fall slowly down to the bottom; repeat five times.
200m warm up
50m breathe every 2
50m breathe every 3
50m breathe every 4
50m breathe every 5
50m breathe every 6
50m breathe every 7
50m breathe every 8
50m breathe every 7
50m breathe every 6
50m breathe every 5
50m breathe every 4
50m breathe every 3
50m breathe every 2
(20 seconds rest between each)
All of these should be done at a slow controlled pace. Exhale slowly and constantly. Try and keep a streamlined position. Take on air in a controlled manner- you should not be gasping.
3*200m pb, breathe every 3, 20 seconds rest between each.
200 swim down

Day 3 Mantra- "Caress the water"

200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
100m
200m
300m
400m
300m
200m
100m
200 swim down

If you have fins, wear the fins for each of the main set. If not, use the pb. The goal throughout each is to keep your feet high in the water, heels just breaking the surface. Steady pace, controlled breathing- focus on a streamlined horizontal position throughout.

Kurt Godel

I need to start learning from this thread myself. Last night, swimming steady and controlled, I was hitting 40s 50m off 1min, no problem. However, when I went to the main sets trying to hold that pace for longer, it felt like I was fighting the water; form was terrible. The coach had a look at my stroke after and said I wasn't catching the water correctly- you need to feel the water in your catch and develop it from there. A useful analogy is to imagine you are lying in snow and trying to drag yourself forward.

For anyone who hasn't seen this yet, SwimSmooth's animated swimmer is a very useful tool for visualising the correct body position and form. Visit their website to download the app.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyR7JYllk9U

career move

Wk 4 Day 1
200 easy
4*100 as (25m pb, 25m kick (use your pb as a board), 25m pb, 25m kick, 15 sec rest)
3*50 fingertip
3*50 pb
3*50 armpit tap
3*50 sailboat*
3*50 swim
200 swim down
(15 sec rest after each drill, all done at comfortable pace)

The sailboat drills were fun - occasionally my rudder was behaving like an errant schoolboy I really noticed it in my lower back during the last 50. I did an extra 50 kick with the board before the swim down. Just to confirm what I already thought ..... I find it way easier using the pb

Kurt Godel

career move wrote: »

The sailboat drills were fun - occasionally my rudder was behaving like an errant schoolboy I really noticed it in my lower back during the last 50.

I like sailboat too, it gives immediate feedback on rotation and keeping a straight line.

career move

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Week 4
Day 2
200 easy
4*50 k with board (rest at each wall if needed)
3*100 off 2:30 (or whatever your slow pace is)
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:25 (slow pace minus 5 seconds)
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:20 (slow pace minus 10 seconds; this pace should feel "steady")
1 min rest
3*100 off 2:15 (slow pace minus 15 seconds; this pace should feel "fast")
1 min rest
200 easy
Steady pace for each 100. More experienced swimmers do 4*100 of each.

Day 3
100m easy
600m straight swim (more experienced do 800m or 1,000m)
4 mins rest
6*100m with 10 sec rest after each 100 (more experienced do 8*100 or 10*100)
400m easy drills of your choice

Time both the straight 600 and the 6*100. You may well notice that the 6*100 is quicker, even allowing for the extra rest in between. I'm using a mallet to drive home a point here

Week 4 done and dusted

I did day 2 yesterday. I wasn't feeling the love after the 200m warm up and the first kick rep nearly broke me. At one stage I was kicking away but actually going nowhere .... I'd imagine that's what being in an endless pool feels like. So I made up my own session because I was going leave if I had to do 3 more kicks and then 12 x 100m

200m warm up
4 x (50m kick, 100m swim)
4 x (50m sailboat, 100m swim)
200m cool down

So I really enjoyed this. I love the sailboat drill

Then today I stuck to the plan (nearly):D
100m warm up
600m sw in 20:22
Didn't really need the 4 min rest so maybe I should have tried to swim a bit faster
6 x 100m with av 15 sec recovery in 21:18
200m pb
4 x (25m pb, 25m kick)
200m slow swim

:D

Kurt Godel

The main focus this week is 20 mins constant straight swim. I'll be the first to say this isn't the best use of time, however newbie swimmers coming to Tri always always always equate progress with distance, so there's no harm in rounding off the year with a bit of a marker. You should aim for a steady comfortable pace. Breathing should be controlled at all times. If you feel yourself gasping, slow down a tad. Towards the end of this swim form might well drop, but use the exercise as a challenge to hold good form.

Day 1
200 easy
4*100 as (25m pb, 25m kick (use your pb as a board), 25m pb, 25m kick, 15 sec rest)
3*50 fingertip
3*50 pb
3*50 armpit tap
3*50 sailboat*
3*50 swim
200 swim down
(15 sec rest after each drill, all done at comfortable pace)

*"Sailboat"- hold your board tight between your crotch and your thighs, with the majority of the board facing down like a rudder. Clench your buttocks, and swim the 50's with the board held tightly. Your shoulders will need to rotate more to control the swim.

Day 2
200 easy
8*25 kick, rest 10 at each wall
100pb
200swim
300pb
400swim
300pb
200swim
100pb
(30 sec rest after each)
200 easy choice

Day 3
200 easy
8*25 as ripple, swim, shoulder tap, swim; repeat
20 mins swim, no rest (record distance)
8*100 alternate swim/pb, steady pace
8*25 as ripple, swim, shoulder tap, swim; repeat
200 easy
(15 sec rest after each drill)

peter kern

Long continuous 12- 20 mi swims are used by quite a few elite coaches for long distance swimmg I think it's and excellent use of time once a week for oly distance and up and for beginner great session Kurt

Kurt Godel wrote: »

The main focus this week is 20 mins constant straight swim. I'll be the first to say this isn't the best use of time, however newbie swimmers coming to Tri always always always equate progress with distance, so there's no harm in rounding off the year with a bit of a marker. You should aim for a steady comfortable pace. Breathing should be controlled at all times. If you feel yourself gasping, slow down a tad. Towards the end of this swim form might well drop, but use the exercise as a challenge to hold good form.

Day 1
200 easy
4*100 as (25m pb, 25m kick (use your pb as a board), 25m pb, 25m kick, 15 sec rest)
3*50 fingertip
3*50 pb
3*50 armpit tap
3*50 sailboat*
3*50 swim
200 swim down
(15 sec rest after each drill, all done at comfortable pace)

*"Sailboat"- hold your board tight between your crotch and your thighs, with the majority of the board facing down like a rudder. Clench your buttocks, and swim the 50's with the board held tightly. Your shoulders will need to rotate more to control the swim.

Day 2
200 easy
8*25 kick, rest 10 at each wall
100pb
200swim
300pb
400swim
300pb
200swim
100pb
(30 sec rest after each)
200 easy choice

Day 3
200 easy
8*25 as ripple, swim, shoulder tap, swim; repeat
20 mins swim, no rest (record distance)
8*100 alternate swim/pb, steady pace
8*25 as ripple, swim, shoulder tap, swim; repeat
200 easy
(15 sec rest after each drill)

career move

I did a great swim this morning. Delighted with myself cause I felt really good in the water. Still slow but I'm ok with that and I thought I had a better position throughout. Anytime I felt like my legs were dropping I said 'streamlined means less drag'. Repeat it until you believe it I was watching Mr Smooth last night and reading my swimsmooth book and I think that may have helped too

200m easy
20 x 50 pb/swim
300m easy
2 x 50m kick with pb

Kurt Godel

peter kern wrote: »

Long continuous 12- 20 mi swims are used by quite a few elite coaches for long distance swimmg I think it's and excellent use of time once a week for oly distance and up and for beginner great session Kurt

I agree that longer steady swims have their place, and they will be a bigger feature closer to the season. For the moment though, their use is being restricted (in preference to form-building work), so enjoy it while it lasts kids!

Steroo

Quick Question: If planning on a few Tri's next year should we get TI Membership? Or just day licence? Thanks
Also anyone in Portmarnock Tri Club?

Kurt Godel

Steroo wrote: »

Quick Question: If planning on a few Tri's next year should we get TI Membership? Or just day licence? Thanks
Also anyone in Portmarnock Tri Club?

TI Membership Fee - €58
One Day Licence Aquathlons/Duathlons/Triathlons - €10 for 1st event, €25 per event thereafter.

Its mandatory to be a TI member if you are in a Tri Club.