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Irish water just tip of the iceberg....
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Would you prefer the law to protect the interests of a private institution or for a democratically elected government to have the ability to make a decision (however legal or not) that's in the interests of its people?
Lets not pretend that private global corporations are innocent institutions that allow themselves to be restricted by law or moral obligations.
Seems fine to me, a country can bring in the law but they must do so carefully and make sure it doesn't conflict with existing laws, freely signed agreements or constitutions etc.
Meanwhile you or me or Johnny Player can protest the law, bring challenges against it via the appointed court system, and if we win we can expect compensation.
Nothing wrong with that at all, but obviously helps the Guardian article when they can refer to bogeyman Philip Morris questioning a tobacco law, rather than some small mom&pop shop questioning an import law or whatever.
Either governments get to make untouchable laws and answer to no-one (bad imo) or else theres a system where individuals and companies can use the court system to question the law and potentially be compensated (good imo). A side affect of the latter system though is that bad companies like PM get to use it as well.
So sorry, don't see the problem.
I do like that we've finally got a thread in AH where someone wants governments to have more control, kudos for that.0 -
KomradeBishop wrote: »If it's non-binding then it still has to be debated and negotiated at a national level - the same way governments implement any other policy - there is no outside/international organization coercing/forcing these governments to implement these policies.
Something like the TTIP, creates outside/international arbitration courts/committees, which can allow corporations to sue entire countries - something completely outside of those countries control; stuff like that is an erosion of democracy, not Article 21, which still has to be negotiated at a democratic level, to be implemented.
If Ireland decided not to implement this, there is nothing other countries can do; there would be no grounds for any kind of sanctions etc..
I do think there is a very large democratic deficit within the EU though (particularly due to the Euro), so that would be a better target for criticism than Article 21.
So where is the debate?
It's already being implemented, surely debate should come before they take action?
Perhaps the fact that it states it is "non binding" is exactly why it's getting implemented without objection. People think that if things get bad we can just change our minds, but its far harder to stop these kind of strategies when they are already being implemented.
What if we willingly go along with the changes like the Germans did under hitler before it's too late?
The systematic destruction of democracy would be far easier to achieve by small changes and giving people the illusion of choice.
Did the Irish people choose to sign onto agenda 21? Does that not scare you that we are implemeting a strategy that absolutely nobody in this country knows about?0 -
What has Ireland implemented (specific policies from Article 21), that have eroded our democracy? Our elected representatives have the power to make these policymaking decisions - that's perfectly within the bounds of our democracy (we've democratically provided them with this power) - they are not compelled to by Article 21, since it's non-binding.0
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ArmaniJeanss wrote: »Seems fine to me, a country can bring in the law but they must do so carefully and make sure it doesn't conflict with existing laws, freely signed agreements or constitutions etc.
Meanwhile you or me or Johnny Player can protest the law, bring challenges against it via the appointed court system, and if we win we can expect compensation.
Nothing wrong with that at all, but obviously helps the Guardian article when they can refer to bogeyman Philip Morris questioning a tobacco law, rather than some small mom&pop shop questioning an import law or whatever.
Either governments get to make untouchable laws and answer to no-one (bad imo) or else theres a system where individuals and companies can use the court system to question the law and potentially be compensated (good imo). A side affect of the latter system though is that bad companies like PM get to use it as well.
So sorry, don't see the problem.
I do like that we've finally got a thread in AH where someone wants governments to have more control, kudos for that.
My issue is surrounding the fact that this is a global strategy that is actively being implemented without the knowledge of the majority of people it effects. . .
I want democratically elected governments to have more control, but any decisions made to be transparent to the people it will effect.
I don't mind a global strategy, in fact I would go so far as to say I am glad that there is at least one. I just feel extremely unnerved that its being done in the shadows which is exactly what is happening.0 -
My issue is surrounding the fact that this is a global strategy that is actively being implemented without the knowledge of the majority of people it effects. . .
I want democratically elected governments to have more control, but any decisions made to be transparent to the people it will effect.
I don't mind a global strategy, in fact I would go so far as to say I am glad that there is at least one. I just feel extremely unnerved that its being done in the shadows which is exactly what is happening.
Hardly "In the shadows" if it's easily found with a google search :rolleyes:0 -
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KomradeBishop wrote: »What has Ireland implemented (specific policies from Article 21), that have eroded our democracy?
I posted a link to an Irish document but heres a more recent one:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,32720,en.pdf
Heres an interesting part of the directive:
The EIA Directive requires that EIA be carried out in an open and transparent manner with the public and bodies with specific environmental responsibility being given an opportunity to comment and participate in the process of assessment (Article 6 of the Directive). The public concerned and persons with sufficient interest must also be given an opportunity to challenge the substantive and procedural legality of the final decision. (Article 11 of the Directive).
The concept of democracy as I see it, is that the people decide how to be governed. How transparent are the decisions being made in the name of Article 21 to the Irish People?
Already , decisions on where to give planning permission for houses etc, is being influenced by the UN "non binding" report . . .
If people don't know that they are being influenced strongly by something they either don't know or understand, its not really transparent. Whether the strategy is well meaning or not does not make it any less potentially sinister.0 -
Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »Hardly "In the shadows" if it's easily found with a google search :rolleyes:
Mein Kampf was in public domain long before it became a problem. We know how that went in hindsight. Hitler didn't just write the book and gain power, he systematically destroyed democracy in Germany over time using propaganda.
I am not comparing the similarities of the mein kampf and agenda 21 by the content. But both share the fact that they were available long before the policies were put into action, but sinister aspects of the strategies weren't explored or considered before the plan was already being implemented. . Both also used the ignorance of the majority of people to erode democracy or the choice of society to make its own decisions.
If there is nothing sinister about Agenda 21, then why doesn't everybody know about it? Its about the survival of humanity, is that not the single most important thing facing each and every one of us?
This agenda has huge impact on the way we live, but nobody knows about it . . Do you not even find it remotely odd?0 -
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It's a official United nations strategy.
http://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/index.html
Do people even know what a conspiracy is?
This is a plan of action that practically every country in the world has committed to inplememting
Something that usually isn't even published or endorsed publically by those who support and intend to implement it.
So seeing as the op has a link to the UN's website... I'm not sure it qualifies.Mein Kampf was in public domain long before it became a problem. We know how that went in hindsight. Hitler didn't just write the book and gain power, he systematically destroyed democracy in Germany over time using propaganda.
I am not comparing the similarities of the mein kampf and agenda 21 by the content. But both share the fact that they were available long before the policies were put into action, but sinister aspects of the strategies weren't explored or considered before the plan was already being implemented. . Both also used the ignorance of the majority of people to erode democracy or the choice of society to make its own decisions.
Mein Kempf isn't anything to get your knickers in a twist over. Its popularity was due to the rise of the Nazis, not the cause of the rise of the Nazis.If there is nothing sinister about Agenda 21, then why doesn't everybody know about it? Its about the survival of humanity, is that not the single most important thing facing each and every one of us?
This agenda has huge impact on the way we live, but nobody knows about it . . Do you not even find it remotely odd?
Does a Vote for Yes mean Jobs or a Vote for No mean not killing babies? If either option mean anything else, our government tend not to focus too much on it.0 -
Mein Kampf was in public domain long before it became a problem. We know how that went in hindsight. Hitler didn't just write the book and gain power, he systematically destroyed democracy in Germany over time using propaganda.
And he godwins it againI am not comparing the similarities of the mein kampf and agenda 21 by the content. But both share the fact that they were available long before the policies were put into action, but sinister aspects of the strategies weren't explored or considered before the plan was already being implemented. . Both also used the ignorance of the majority of people to erode democracy or the choice of society to make its own decisions.
How is agenda 21 eroding democracy? Can you name how it has affected you or anyone you know since the implementation?If there is nothing sinister about Agenda 21, then why doesn't everybody know about it? Its about the survival of humanity, is that not the single most important thing facing each and every one of us?
There is nothing sinister about nuclear power but not everyone knows about that.This agenda has huge impact on the way we live, but nobody knows about it . . Do you not even find it remotely odd?
There is a massive difference in not knowing and not caring.0 -
[QUOTE=Timberrrrrrrr;92909238
There is nothing sinister about nuclear power but not everyone knows about that.
[/quote]
And if you poll the general public a disconcertingly large percentage can't tell you how many days it takes the earth to orbit the sun (hint, it's a year) and 1 in 4 americans think the sun orbits the earth.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/02/14/277058739/1-in-4-americans-think-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says
The fact that people don't know something is not evidence that it's being deliberately hidden from them. Anyone with any interest in 'agenda 21' can find out all of the information that they need from direct primary sources.0 -
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Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »And he godwins it again
How is agenda 21 eroding democracy? Can you name how it has affected you or anyone you know since the implementation?
There is nothing sinister about nuclear power but not everyone knows about that.
There is a massive difference in not knowing and not caring.
Ah, broad sweeping statement about "godwin" without looking at the actual context of the comparison . . Way to wag the dog . . If people are focusing on an insignificant point made, they aren't discussing the merits of that actual point.
If the government choosing to actively implement a global strategy without the knowledge of the majority of its people isn't eroding democracy I don't know what is . .
Decisions made on taxation and planning of property effects us all. Being told where we can live and what we can build effects us all. Being told we have to pay more to own private cars and encouraged to use public transport through the strategic implementation of Agenda 21 effects us all.
The knockon effects of this strategy effects us all in so many ways its not funny.
With all due respect there might be a difference between not knowing and not caring, but it seems you are in both those brackets . .0 -
Google "agenda 21", to see what Ireland and most countries have signed up to.
It's a United Nations report on how the world should be run in the 21st century. This is not a conspiracy , it's a widely available document that anybody can read.
Before people start to attack the post out of disbelief or apathy, ask yourself did you or anybody you know, realise that Ireland has signed up to agenda 21? This isn't pie in the sky stuff, we as a country have committed to this way of life.
I note you post in Conspiracy Theories. Therefore I don't believe you. Besides, Agenda 21 was written 22 years ago as a guideline. Your conspiracy theory doesn't stand up.0 -
Dravokivich wrote: »Something that usually isn't even published or endorsed publically by those who support and intend to implement it.
So seeing as the op has a link to the UN's website... I'm not sure it qualifies.
Mein Kempf isn't anything to get your knickers in a twist over. Its popularity was due to the rise of the Nazis, not the cause of the rise of the Nazis.
Does a Vote for Yes mean Jobs or a Vote for No mean not killing babies? If either option mean anything else, our government tend not to focus too much on it.
Not really sure what your point is. .
My reference to Mein Kampf was specifically to do with how you don't have to hide even sinister strategic literature from public domain. People seem to be suggesting that because you can google information about Agenda 21, it mustn't be a bad thing (or its somehow transparent).
Tell you what, lets keep this simple.
Do you think there is nothing wrong with the Irish Government implementing a strategy devised by the UN , that effects every man woman and child in this country, without any of them actually knowing the long term strategic goals?0 -
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And if you poll the general public a disconcertingly large percentage can't tell you how many days it takes the earth to orbit the sun (hint, it's a year) and 1 in 4 americans think the sun orbits the earth.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/02/14/277058739/1-in-4-americans-think-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says
The fact that people don't know something is not evidence that it's being deliberately hidden from them. Anyone with any interest in 'agenda 21' can find out all of the information that they need from direct primary sources.
We are talking about a government being complicit at actively implementing a global strategy that literally changes the way we live and how we live, without most of the people understanding it.
This information is most definitely not deliberately being disclosed or discussed with the Irish People, possibly because many within polictics don't actually understand it completely.
You are arguing over a minor point. In essence the government aren't lieing, but they aren't actually informing people either.0 -
It's a United Nations report......
This official United Nations report.....It's an United nations report.....It's a official United nations strategy.
Blah blah blah.
Nobody really gives a toss about the UN. Not at government level anyway.
The General Assembly is a glorified talking shop where diplomats set agendas and agree the conclusions in advance of them being presented on the floor of the chamber by delegates. There is no debate or bargaining between states there. Its a waste of space where Taoiseachs and Prime Ministers go the odd time to make speeches to dupe voters into thinking it makes them look important on the world stage. Its more theatrical than the Gaeity.
The five permanent members of the Security Council are the only ones with any real power and use their veto to keep each other from going at each others throats. And even then, they'll make agreements and China, Russia and the US will do their own thing in any case.
Like the vast majority of small countries,Ireland has zero influence on the UN and if we left in the morning we wouldn't be missed. All we ever do is tow the EU line on whatever we're told to there anyway.
Its just a handy place to send diplomats and former Taoisigh for cushy jobs in New York and Geneva.
The General Assembly is almost, not quite, but almost as big a talking shop as After Hours.0 -
Dravokivich wrote: »I kept it simple enough thanks.
Way to ignore the question and main points . . I suppose you know what you know . .0 -
You know why nobody knows about it? Because nobody cares - it's a non-binding inter-governmental policy document drawn up over 20 years ago!!!
When the Earth Summit was on in Rio, it was in the news cycles for a week or so, there would have been a few articles in the Sunday broadsheets about the issues involved. In general it was treated as a Big Thing, but not as Big a Thing as the referendum on the Maastrict Treaty which would have received far more attention. Agenda 21 itself wasn't even published for another year, and probably heralded little more than a half-page article in the Times, and a sidebar entry on the back page of the Indo. Meanwhile the world had moved on through Euro 92, the US elections of Bill Clinton, and the decriminalisation of homosexuality in Ireland.
Take a random sample of people and ask them if they know the titles of various white papers and green papers published over the last few decades are about I'm pretty sure you'll have a poor success rate. Hint: don't bother with anybody who was still in nappies at the time.
It seems to be getting some attention these days as the Tea Party don't like the idea of sustainable development since it doesn't always go hand in hand with I'll-do-whatever-the-hell-I-want-and-screw-the-rest-of-ye-i-have-my-guns-and-my-gasoline-ism and rather than debate any idea on it merit they generally prefer to dismiss it outright by pointing to it's origin from "big" government, the "united" nations or the French. Having "Agenda" in the title, and it being too big for the layman to bother reading makes it all the easier for them to make whatever shrill claim they want.0 -
We are talking about a government being complicit at actively implementing a global strategy that literally changes the way we live and how we live, without most of the people understanding it.
This information is most definitely not deliberately being disclosed or discussed with the Irish People.
You are arguing over a minor point. In essence the government aren't lieing, but they aren't actually informing people either.
News articles related to Agenda 21 in Irish media:
http://www.galwaycity.ie/news/65/59/Local-Agenda-21-Environmental-Partnership-Fund-2014/
http://www.corkcity.ie/services/environmentrecreation/localagenda21environmentalpartnershipfund/
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2014/10/minister-kelly-announces-recipients-of-grants-under-the-2014-local-agenda-21-environmental-partnership-fund/
http://www.justforests.org/agenda21
Those are just the most recent ones google will bring up.
There are tons of websites from individual TDs, lots more from county councils around the country, not to mention the abundance of environmental sites referring to Agenda 21.
What you seem to be saying is that the whole thing is suspicious to you, because the government has not so far walked up to your door, sat you down at your ktichen table and explained to you in explicit details every single article of the agreement and how it will impact on your own affiars.
Because from what I can see, they are certainly not hiding it - you just need to bother to google, or read the news.0 -
Blah blah blah.
Nobody really gives a toss about the UN. Not at government level anyway
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Actually sums up the response of most people to this information . .
I find it fascinating how intimidated people are by this thread, reverting to insults and "witty" humour to hide their inability to objectively discuss the actual ramifications of an agenda that is actively being implemented in Ireland . .0 -
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News articles related to Agenda 21 in Irish media:
http://www.galwaycity.ie/news/65/59/Local-Agenda-21-Environmental-Partnership-Fund-2014/
http://www.corkcity.ie/services/environmentrecreation/localagenda21environmentalpartnershipfund/
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2014/10/minister-kelly-announces-recipients-of-grants-under-the-2014-local-agenda-21-environmental-partnership-fund/
http://www.justforests.org/agenda21
Those are just the most recent ones google will bring up.
There are tons of websites from individual TDs, lots more from county councils around the country, not to mention the abundance of environmental sites referring to Agenda 21.
What you seem to be saying is that the whole thing is suspicious to you, because the government has not so far walked up to your door, sat you down at your ktichen table and explained to you in explicit details every single article of the agreement and how it will impact on your own affiars.
Because from what I can see, they are certainly not hiding it - you just need to bother to google, or read the news.
I never said the government were hiding it, I said most people don't know about it and the government are doing little to inform people about it. I will thank you for not making responses to something I never said. I actually don't think any political fully understands the ramifications of blindly following this document so wouldn't afford them the courtesy of suggesting they are intentionally hiding it from people.
The links you supply are small snippets of information that people could easily miss and couldn't possibly connect the potential overall ramifications of the strategy.
Its clear that most people on this thread didn't know anything about it until I mentioned it. People are still talking about conspiracy's when its simply point out something that actually exists. .
Since most of you keep ignoring the very simple question I will ask it again. Irrespective of whether or not this information is available publically, do you actually think its normal or ok or democratic for concurrent Irish governments to be implementing a national strategy that will effect everybody in this country, that most people don't actually understand or know about ?
Do you think its not really that important for the Irish people to actually know how this strategy might change our country or how the world will change and how it will effect us in the long run?
Given the money spent on spinning trivial issues that the government wants done, do you not think it is odd that they spend zero time trying to explain this global strategy ?
Cue somebody finding a snippet of a politician mentioning it somewhere as if it shows they are actively engaging with the people . .
The document itself speaks about transparency. Putting information online or in a newspaper without actively engaging in informed public debate is not transparency. I would suggest its done more out of ignorance and lack of motivation (like the apathy shown here, people don't really care what their governments are doing if it isn't directly effecting them right now), as opposed to our government trying anything sinister.
Its the motivation of those who drafted the report and who will fund its implementation that I am more interested in. A lot of the strategies highlight private infrastructure being required to implement this new way of the world.0 -
I never said the government were hiding it, I said most people don't know about it. I will thank you for not making responses to something I never said.
The links you supply are small snippets of information that people could easily miss and couldn't possibly connect the potential overall ramifications of the strategy.
Its clear that most people on this thread didn't know anything about it until I mentioned it. People are still talking about conspiracy's when its simply point out something that actually exists. .
Since most of you keep ignoring the very simple question I will ask it again. Irrespective of whether or not this information is available publically, do you actually think its normal or ok or democratic for concurrent Irish governments to be implementing a national strategy that will effect everybody in this country, that most people don't actually understand or know about ?
Do you think its not really that important for the Irish people to actually know how this strategy might change our country or how the world will change and how it will effect us in the long run?
Given the money spent on spinning trivial issues that the government wants done, do you not think it is odd that they spend zero time trying to explain this global strategy ?
Cue somebody finding a snippet of a politician mentioning it somewhere as if it shows they are actively engaging with the people . .
The document itself speaks about transparency. Putting information online or in a newspaper without actively engaging in informed public debate is not transparency, its covert selective education. I would suggest its done more out of ignorance and lack of motivation (like the apathy shown here, people don't really care what their governments are doing if it isn't directly effecting them right now), as opposed to our government trying anything sinister.
Its the motivation of those who drafted the report and who will fund its implementation that I am more interested in. A lot of the strategies highlight private infrastructure being required to implement this new way of the world.
I can't speak for most people, but I remember the Rio conference, I remember it being reported in the news back then and I know about Agenda 21. I have not read the full document, but then I haven't read the European Declaration of Human Rights either and the Irish government did sign that one, too.
And no, I don't think the wider public would understand the the European Declaration of Human Rights on a cursory read. And I don't think they'd be all that interested, either.
That doesn't mean that the government is plotting against them.
What would you expect the government to do, exactly, as the normal way for them to communicate their actions and agendas was followed in the case of Agenda 21 - it was announced to the media and further information was made available to those members of the public who are interested?
Should they force the disinterested into the libraries for compulsory readings of the document?
Should they send vans with speakers through the country to read it out to the public?
It's a 20 year old resolution. It's been well publicised, it's not news.
And btw, nobody here claimed it doesn't exist. They were simply pointing out that it was not a conspiracy, but a perfectly transparent, well-documented and widely available document on international intent and cooperation.0 -
I can't speak for most people, but I remember the Rio conference, I remember it being reported in the news back then and I know about Agenda 21. I have not read the full document, but then I haven't read the European Declaration of Human Rights either and the Irish government did sign that one, too.
And no, I don't think the wider public would understand the the European Declaration of Human Rights on a cursory read. And I don't think they'd be all that interested, either.
That doesn't mean that the government is plotting against them.
What would you expect the government to do, exactly, as the normal way for them to communicate their actions and agendas was followed in the case of Agenda 21 - it was announced to the media and further information was made available to those members of the public who are interested?
Should they force the disinterested into the libraries for compulsory readings of the document?
Should they send vans with speakers through the country to read it out to the public?
It's a 20 year old resolution. It's been well publicised, it's not news.
And btw, nobody here claimed it doesn't exist. They were simply pointing out that it was not a conspiracy, but a perfectly transparent, well-documented and widely available document on international intent and cooperation.
Yeh, I am not sure the bolded bit is remotely true in anyway. I don't know anybody who actually knows or understands anything about Agenda 21 and you are being very generous suggesting that most of the posters in this thread knew anything about it. .
I suppose the least the government could do is impress upon everybody how important this document is. You need only look at how they communicate during a referendum to see how they can get a message across to the people when they are motivated to do so.
You are indeed correct that we don't need to know about every little thing that our government does or agrees with the EU, UN or whoever, but this document isn't just a plant more trees and we will all be grand document.
Its about our way of life. It is a roadmap of how we will be governed and how humanity will be guided in the 21st century.
I will ask you again, don't you think its strange that the majority of people know nothing about the agreed global roadmap that's been set out for humanity ? Not even a little bit strange ? We learn and are educated in Irish in school for a decade, we learn historical information so we know how lucky we are and how proud we should be about our heritage . . Yet we get no education or information to help us understand the direction that our country will be taking in the 21st century ? Put a couple of snippets here and there is more then enough ?
More people in Ireland probably know the first names of Jedward then the global plans of our species that are effecting us all daily and will change our lives . .
People know either what they want to know, what they are interested in knowing or what they are forced to know. People are interested in the Irish Water debacle not because its interesting but because its an issue that's on front of them daily, that they hear about daily and is directly effecting them now.
People simply don't understand the potential ramifications of this document and nobody has really made any effort to try and explain any potential downside to it (every plan has knock on effects to people). .0 -
they want to increase tree spanning areas and actually tax those who wise to remove trees?
madness.0 -
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actually, madness would be making something up and seeing if someone bites0
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I for one intend working for the Corporations in their quest to dominate mankind. Better to be inside the tent, peeing out than outside the tent, getting peed on. Or something. Either way, first tent I see, I'm getting myself into it.0
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Tail Docker wrote: »I for one intend working for the Corporations in their quest to dominate mankind. Better to be inside the tent, peeing out than outside the tent, getting peed on. Or something. Either way, first tent I see, I'm getting myself into it.
Tent buddies?0 -
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Actually sums up the response of most people to this information . .
I find it fascinating how intimidated people are by this thread, reverting to insults and "witty" humour to hide their inability to objectively discuss the actual ramifications of an agenda that is actively being implemented in Ireland . .
They hate you for bringing this to their attention and making them contemplate what they already suspect.0
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