Irish water just tip of the iceberg....

kylith

Is it not a bit too early in the morning to be reading about communist conspiracies?

Akrasia

Drumpot wrote: »

Just do random Google searches. There is even a agenda 21 for dummies YouTube video.

There are thousands of pages in agenda 21, so it might have to be a long term project for me!

I posted it here so anybody who doesn't know about it can do their own research.

This far it seems like a very insidious strategy. We need only look at human nature historicity to realise that something like this is not completely improbable. Mass genocide goes on in countries on an ongoing basis, Usa invades whoever it wants without anybody giving a feck.

The world that we are born into is the one we accept. Part of my openess to understanding these kind of radical thinking is actually through gaining self awareness. I realise that most people accept what they know or what they were thought, without really questioning it.

Just because something is on the internet does not mean it's true

There are a lot of crackpots out there and a lot of them have their own website.

Sofiztikated

bluewolf wrote: »

The commies are in on it too apparently. The commies and the corporations
We're doomed

And the nazis. The commies, corporations, and the nazis, all cosied up in bed together. And possibly the bedmakers as well.

Is it not a bit early in the day for this sort of crazy?

EDIT:

kylith wrote: »

Is it not a bit too early in the morning to be reading about communist conspiracies?

Jinx, no take backs.

Tonyandthewhale

Yeah, the UN's an all powerful supra-national government of unknowable, unimaginable and unstoppable power bent on world domination. That's why they've been so successful in preventing any wars from happening since 1945.

Who's going to impose the supposedly totalitarian agenda 21 OP? 600 Bangladeshi peace keepers with strict orders not to open fire on anyone? A menacing horde of simultaneous translators? The cleaning staff from the general assembly building?

Timberrrrrrrr

Drumpot wrote: »

A problem shared is a problem halfed.

why not educate yourself and stop making dismissive statements on something you know less about then i do!

I have read your links and tbh they are a UN report hat says nothing and a couple of conspiracy theorists waffling on. I have better things to do with my time than investigate conspiracy theories but please feel free to carry on.

Drumpot

kylith wrote: »

Is it not a bit too early in the morning to be reading about communist conspiracies?

Its an official UN document that Ireland has committed to implement. Where's the conspiracy?

BoJack Horseman

The OP is right.
IW are indeed just the tip of the ice-berg.

I've heard rumours that people will be forced to pay an annual tax merely for possessing a television in their homes!

This tax will be enforced under penalty of potential jail sentences!

I know the Irish people won't stand for it.

Drumpot

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I have read your links and tbh they are a UN report hat says nothing and a couple of conspiracy theorists waffling on. I have better things to do with my time than investigate conspiracy theories but please feel free to carry on.

You have better things to do but You will waste time ridiculing something you don't actually understand...

Drumpot

Akrasia wrote: »

Just because something is on the internet does not mean it's true

There are a lot of crackpots out there and a lot of them have their own website.

It's a official United nations strategy.

http://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/index.html

Do people even know what a conspiracy is?

This is a plan of action that practically every country in the world has committed to inplememting

Sofiztikated

Drumpot wrote: »

It's a official United nations strategy.

http://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/index.html

Do people even know what a conspiracy is?

This is a plan of action that practically every country in the world has committed to inplememting

ooohhh, scary stuff indeed, eliminating poverty, hunger, climate change and sustainable devlopment.

I'm going to get my bunker ready, RIGHT NOW!!!!!11!!one!eleventyone!!!

KomradeBishop

Article 21 exists, but the hyped claims about it are conspiracy theories. If you want something real to be worried about, then this is something of genuine concern:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership#Transparency

Drumpot

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/LocalAgenda21/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,1834,en.pdf

Heres an official document that clearly shows Ireland is implementing the strategy . .

What does a Local Agenda 21 Process Involve?
A Local Agenda 21 process should involve the target community. It should focus on
the strategic needs of the community and should seek to balance the competing
demands of development and environmental protection whilst addressing the social
and cultural needs of the community. It should strive to achieve consensus on the
strategic needs of the community. The process should try to obtain a reasonable
balance, as defined by the community, between the economic, social, cultural and
environmental dimensions of development so as to improve community life now and
in the future.


So how involved have Irish people been with this strategy?

On the surface it just looks like an innocently prudent strategy for self preservation. If it is, then why doesn't anybody know about it? Surely understanding where these strategys are going to take us as a society is the single most important thing to humanity ? What world will my children live in if the policy of Agenda 21 becomes something that is legally enforced?

Ah, sure this will never happen. the whole strategy of this plan is about limiting what humans can do and making everything micro managed.

What choice did we have for a water charge? What choice did we have for a property tax ? Never mind, sure this document is only optional, something we have chosen to implement, but just not educate the people who it will effect . . Yep, one big giant conspiracy . . Forget the facts, forget the official information , forget the fact that Ireland is openly implementing the strategy, it sounds good in theory so lets not worry about the specifics or minor points like educating people about it.

Drumpot

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Article 21 exists, but the hyped claims about it are conspiracy theories. If you want something real to be worried about, then this is something of genuine concern:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership#Transparency

Ok, so you agree its an official UN sanctioned, Ireland committed strategy .


Considering the ramifications and implications to every person in the country, do you not think its even a little bit strange that nobody knows about it ? This is a strategy to design how the country is to be run and how future communities will govern themselves and you don't think its remotely important for people to understand and either agree or disagree to it ?



Its no conspiracy that the transparency of this strategy is insidious and deserves to be looked at closer. Its also no conspiracy that a government implementing a strategy that the people do not even know about is not really democratic now is it ?



I am not looking to ram this down peoples throats as its clear many people are not open minded enough to even investigate the merits of my original post. I am choosing to look into it more, not because I believe all the negative theories about where it will lead, but because I am open minded and objective enough to accept that this is a possibility.

The hubris and ignorance of mankind on so many different levels on so many different things is difficult for me to understand.

100 years ago people would not of believed a book about purging millions of jews could of led to a mass genocide of a race. In modern times, people accept the rogue actions of the US, who invade whoever they want under false pretenses. Its factually accurate that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction , yet this was the factual reason given for a US invasion. But most people shrug their shoulders and dismiss it. Now look at the uproar about Russia and Crimea. How is this any different to the US? If anything, the water thin argument Putin gives for invading is more "reasonable" then the US invasion of Iraq.



So what has this got to do with my OP? It shows that people are programmed to accept horrible things that they have been programmed to accept. US invade a country, ok. Russia invade a country bad. It also shows how sterile people are when it comes to stepping out of the world as they understand it, and seeing it from an objective (or at least different) perspective..

People ridicule what they just cant either understand or comprehend. A mass global strategy to run the world . . Crazy , except for the fact that its an official UN document that people think, in summary , sounds good, but couldn't be arsed debating where it might lead . .

So the next time another "water charges" type thing comes up, you cant say you weren't warned. there is a global plan that Ireland is committed to whether you want to understand it or not. You can no longer say you weren't warned . .

Akrasia

Drumpot wrote: »

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/LocalAgenda21/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,1834,en.pdf

Heres an official document that clearly shows Ireland is implementing the strategy . .

What does a Local Agenda 21 Process Involve?
A Local Agenda 21 process should involve the target community. It should focus on
the strategic needs of the community and should seek to balance the competing
demands of development and environmental protection whilst addressing the social
and cultural needs of the community. It should strive to achieve consensus on the
strategic needs of the community. The process should try to obtain a reasonable
balance, as defined by the community, between the economic, social, cultural and
environmental dimensions of development so as to improve community life now and
in the future.


So how involved have Irish people been with this strategy?

On the surface it just looks like an innocently prudent strategy for self preservation. If it is, then why doesn't anybody know about it? Surely understanding where these strategys are going to take us as a society is the single most important thing to humanity ? What world will my children live in if the policy of Agenda 21 becomes something that is legally enforced?

Ah, sure this will never happen. the whole strategy of this plan is about limiting what humans can do and making everything micro managed.

What choice did we have for a water charge? What choice did we have for a property tax ? Never mind, sure this document is only optional, something we have chosen to implement, but just not educate the people who it will effect . . Yep, one big giant conspiracy . . Forget the facts, forget the official information , forget the fact that Ireland is openly implementing the strategy, it sounds good in theory so lets not worry about the specifics or minor points like educating people about it.

People don't know about it because it's just one of a billion E.U. 'strategies' that use the same wooly language 'sustainability' 'inclusivity' participatory' 'community' 'diversity' 'governance' etc

The only people who pay much attention to it are those who are trying to draw down grant funding for community projects.

Most of the programs are well meaning and they're a very long way way from any attempt to undermine democracy or force through social and economic changes against the will of the people.

The European Commission, the Council, the Court of Justice and the ECB are the bodies who are capable of forcing governments to adopt policies that may not be in the interests of the citizens of that country, so if you're looking for something to be worried about, you should focus on the bodies that have the power and are using it

Duggy747

There's a hell of a lot of stuff Irish people don't know about their own country or the workings of it's government, it doesn't automatically put it into the realm of sinister. I know people who'd struggle to know who the current president is and what they actually do.

If it were something shady and secret then it shouldn't have been exposed by a 2 second Google search.

GG66

I suggest you read up on the TTIP if this type of thing bothers you
https://stop-ttip.org/what-is-the-problem-ttip-ceta/

Among other things allows corporations to sue governments if their policies affect their profits. e.g. Phillip Morris sues Australian Govt. for introducing blank labeled cigarrettes, Toll company in Limerick sues for not acheiving expected profits etc. etc.

Drumpot

Sofiztikated wrote: »

ooohhh, scary stuff indeed, eliminating poverty, hunger, climate change and sustainable devlopment.

I'm going to get my bunker ready, RIGHT NOW!!!!!11!!one!eleventyone!!!

So you read in the summary "eliminating poverty, hunger and sustainable development" and that's all you needed to hear ? The specifics of how they are going to implement this strategy or how it will effect you or your family isn't really a concern?

"By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise."

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach."

Quotes by the fictitious baddy Adolf Hitler who we all know didn't rise to power and nearly take over the Europe after writing a book about creating a master race....

But we are so much more informed nowadays right ? So much informed that most of the people reading this are thanking those ridiculing the post, without actually understanding anything about how this global strategy is going to effect them . .

Ah yes, the people of modern society are far too intelligent to be fooled into a major global strategy that they know nothing about . . That's the stuff of fiction and what happens in history is never repeated . . And even if this UN document is fact, sure it must be good if Ireland is implementing it and its about world hunger and all that sort of stuff ?!

Drumpot

GG66 wrote: »

I suggest you read up on the TTIP if this type of thing bothers you
https://stop-ttip.org/what-is-the-problem-ttip-ceta/

Among other things allows corporations to sue governments if their policies affect their profits. e.g. Phillip Morris sues Australian Govt. for introducing blank labeled cigarrettes, Toll company in Limerick sues for not acheiving expected profits etc. etc.

Oh and corporations suing countries for Soverign default.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/argentina-slams-us-debt-case-judge-despite-contempt-threat-1.1895933

biko

Never mind the haters OP.
They see a wall of text and the words "this is not a conspiracy theory" and thus the conclusion is made - it is indeed a conspiracy theory.
You keep informing the masses.

Drumpot

biko wrote: »

Never mind the haters OP.
They see a wall of text and the words "this is not a conspiracy theory" and thus the conclusion is made - it is indeed a conspiracy theory.
You keep informing the masses.

Not sure if that's sarcastic or not but I posted this thread for myself. .

Reminds me how bad people have gotten at being objective or even open minded about certain factual things right on front of them. Also a good reminder of how bad this generation is at debating or discussing serious topics.

The most thanks in this thread has been somebody saying something witty about wheetabix . . I don't expect everybody to take it seriously and it is After Hours forum, but its a fascinating insight into how these kind of global strategies could very easily be implemented over time. People simply don't have the foresight to consider where these kind of strategies may lead and don't actually want to think about it.

“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” Gandhi

While it may seem dramatic to quote Gandhi, its quite apt for this thread. Most people are ignorant or oblivious to Agenda 21. This is a globally agreed framework of how we are going to be able to live our lives in the 21st century! A lot of people have ridiculed and called it a conspiracy even though its a factual document being implemented around the world ( I even posted links showing that Ireland is actively implementing the strategies).

My issue isn't the idea of solving the world problems, but its the implementation of it without the knowledge of the people. That's not democracy, that's somebody else deciding what is best for us. Can people not actually understand it ? Do people not understand that once we allow somebody else to tell us how we should live (because we are actively complying, they don't have to make it mandatory) that over time there is literally nothing to stop them re-educating us to comply in many other aspects of life?

stevedublin

Drumpot wrote: »

It goes as far as to even talk about getting rid of mother and father and replacing them with parents.

aren't they the same thing?

ArmaniJeanss

GG66 wrote: »

I suggest you read up on the TTIP if this type of thing bothers you
https://stop-ttip.org/what-is-the-problem-ttip-ceta/

Among other things allows corporations to sue governments if their policies affect their profits. e.g. Phillip Morris sues Australian Govt. for introducing blank labeled cigarrettes,

Not sure why we should have a problem with Philip Morris doing that.
Like if Philip Morris believe that the law is wrong, or in breach of prior agreements with the Aussie government then why shouldn't they be entitled to bring it through the court system?
Obviously they sell a fairly abhorrent product and I hope they lose, but they still should have the same rights that the seller of any 'decent' product has.
The alternative is that governments could just right roughshod over businesses large and small, surely not a good situation either and one which would cause similar anger.

Drumpot

stevedublin wrote: »

aren't they the same thing?

Out of everything posted, this is the most important piece of information you have plucked out ?

Before I go on, I am not saying that this is what the programme is all about, I am saying that its suggested that this could be one of the outcomes of the strategy.

The concept is that you try to dilute the importance parents play in children's lives. Many people have more effection for one of their parents (not saying it absolutely), but even at that "Daddy" and "mommy" are more effectionate terms then "parents" that we can all associate with.

It appears to be about making the state more responsible for the education and training of children. The state/corporations who sponcor state schools, decide what information is thought. In essence you make people have more allegiance to the human race, the greater good and local communities but with corporations funding this new world order. .

Some of this Sounds ok in principle, but who decides this ? Who decided to make this an acceptable way of taking us forward ? Why weren't people consulted?

The truth is that getting common consensus worldwide was always going to be near impossible so it does seem practical to draw up a global plan. But if its a plan that most people don't know, don't understand or even agree to, then surely its based on forcing people to comply by virtue of the fact that most people are complying with the strategy?

Even from a discussional perspective, people surely find it fascinating/interesting that the way we live is being dictated to by the UN, without us even knowing it?

Generic Dreadhead

Links234 wrote: »

Just the tip? Phrasing!

Are we not doing Phrasing anymore?

SpaceTime

It's a non-binding treaty.

KomradeBishop

Drumpot wrote: »

Ok, so you agree its an official UN sanctioned, Ireland committed strategy .


Considering the ramifications and implications to every person in the country, do you not think its even a little bit strange that nobody knows about it ? This is a strategy to design how the country is to be run and how future communities will govern themselves and you don't think its remotely important for people to understand and either agree or disagree to it ?
...

Key word here is "non-binding" - Article 21 is non-binding, TTIP has many binding agreements within it.

International treaties are indeed one of the primary weapons used by political/business interests, to subvert/erode democracy these days, but Article 21 is not even a binding agreement, so it's probably the worst example to pick of this problem.

Drumpot

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Not sure why we should have a problem with Philip Morris doing that.
Like if Philip Morris believe that the law is wrong, or in breach of prior agreements with the Aussie government then why shouldn't they be entitled to bring it through the court system?
Obviously they sell a fairly abhorrent product and I hope they lose, but they still should have the same rights that the seller of any 'decent' product has.
The alternative is that governments could just right roughshod over businesses large and small, surely not a good situation either and one which would cause similar anger.

Would you prefer the law to protect the interests of a private institution or for a democratically elected government to have the ability to make a decision (however legal or not) that's in the interests of its people?

Lets not pretend that private global corporations are innocent institutions that allow themselves to be restricted by law or moral obligations.

Drumpot

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Key word here is "non-binding" - Article 21 is non-binding, TTIP has many binding agreements within it.

International treaties are indeed one of the primary weapons used by political/business interests, to subvert/erode democracy these days, but Article 21 is not even a binding agreement, so it's probably the worst example to pick of this problem.

What difference does it make if every country has chosen to and is actually implementing it ?

If there was a non binding agenda to kill every 1st born of each household that every country chose to take up, would it really make a difference if it was a non binding strategy?

At what stage do you think Ireland could decide "actually, we don't really want to continue with this strategy" on its own ? How do you think other countries committed to these strategies would react?

Sure this is a "non binding" strategy, but do you not think we may end up being isolated as a country? That sanctions (direct or indirect) could be applied to "encourage" us to implement this "non binding" contract. .

Is this line of thought really that crazy? What do you think about our EU friends forcing us to pay back all unsecured bondholder debt for the greater good of the markets ? To help stabilise the union ? For the greater good ! The mere fact that our debt is as high as it is says it all about how in control we really are of our own destiny. .

Sure we could of defaulted, but that would of meant leaving the EU/Euro. Just like we can choose to not implement the strategy of Article 21, but how do you think those who are committed to it will respond ?

Maximus Alexander

Drumpot wrote: »

Reminds me how bad people have gotten at being objective or even open minded about certain factual things right on front of them.

I laughed.

KomradeBishop

Drumpot wrote: »

What difference does it make if every country has chosen to and is actually implementing it ?

If there was a non binding agenda to kill every 1st born of each household that every country chose to take up, would it really make a difference if it was a non binding strategy?

At what stage do you think Ireland could decide "actually, we don't really want to continue with this strategy" on its own ? How do you think other countries committed to these strategies would react?

Sure this is a "non binding" strategy, but do you not think we may end up being isolated as a country? That sanctions (direct or indirect) could be applied to "encourage" us to implement this "non binding" contract. .

Is this line of thought really that crazy? What do you think about our EU friends forcing us to pay back all unsecured bondholder debt for the greater good of the markets ? To help stabilise the union ? For the greater good ! The mere fact that our debt is as high as it is says it all about how in control we really are of our own destiny. .

Sure we could of defaulted, but that would of meant leaving the EU/Euro. Just like we can choose to not implement the strategy of Article 21, but how do you think those who are committed to it will respond ?

If it's non-binding then it still has to be debated and negotiated at a national level - the same way governments implement any other policy - there is no outside/international organization coercing/forcing these governments to implement these policies.

Something like the TTIP, creates outside/international arbitration courts/committees, which can allow corporations to sue entire countries - something completely outside of those countries control; stuff like that is an erosion of democracy, not Article 21, which still has to be negotiated at a democratic level, to be implemented.

If Ireland decided not to implement this, there is nothing other countries can do; there would be no grounds for any kind of sanctions etc..

I do think there is a very large democratic deficit within the EU though (particularly due to the Euro), so that would be a better target for criticism than Article 21.