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Is it still 1971 in Ireland? The contraceptive train still runs - Under another name.

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    #92
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    lazygal wrote: »
    Can a man gestate and birth a child? What effects do pregnancy and birth have on men?

    What effects might abortion have on a man?

    The pain is apples and oranges but the effects are of the same degree.i


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    #93
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Lol you make pregnancy sound like something out Aliens. It's hardly that bad if most women do it at some stage in their lives.

    How many times have you been pregnant? I've done it twice. It's crap. Abdominal surgery to get the babies out wasn't nice either.


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    #94
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Demonique wrote: »
    Squirting a load doesn't equal nine months of pregnancy though

    Right, because all men have nothing to do with or are even slightly connected emotionally with their kids :rolleyes:


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    #95
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    Demonique wrote: »
    Squirting a load doesn't equal nine months of pregnancy though

    A one person approved Abortion doesn't equal a lifetime of pain though.


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    #96
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,503 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    lazygal wrote: »
    How many times have you been pregnant? I've done it twice. It's crap. Abdominal surgery to get the babies out wasn't nice either.

    Ok, so its a competition here is it? The more pregnancies the more say you have :rolleyes:


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    #97
    Gongoozler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,263 ✭✭✭Gongoozler


    Patser wrote: »
    According to RTE.ie the Pills were ordered online, delivered to addresses in Northern Ireland and collected there today.

    On the OP there is a link that says RTE but is to the Independent in which Ruth Coppinger says she just took one of the tablets and 'I'm not dead yet'. Seems a little flippant to me.

    Hmmm, ok. Thanks for that. I was going to say that whatever doctor prescribed to a woman who he hasn't proven as pregnant should be reported to the GMC. I suppose this is along similar lines. It's all so dodgy, online prescriptions.


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    #98
    Lapin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,184 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Agreed. Thread title is very misleading.

    Is it? Nobody else seems confused by it.

    I simply made the association between the 'contraceptive trains' of 1971 and questioned have things changed that much since by suggesting that thay haven't as the train still runs to this day, but under a different name.

    It adds a different dimention to the old slogan from Irish Rail We're Getting There.

    Apologies to those who easily confused.


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    #99
    Patser
    Registered Users Posts: 7,952 ✭✭✭Patser


    Lapin wrote: »
    If such laws are are commonplace elsewhere (as the three examples above are) and the TD shows highlights the stupidity of the laws by breaking them, then yes, Coppinger served a good purpose by breaking them.

    I wouldn't think red light districts or legalised drugs would be considered that common even in Europe. Hamburgs Reeperbahn - Spelling? - And Amsterdam aside, there're few well known places. And again these were only a few examples of what's legal abroad but not here and ones that I'd say would face massive objections from the majority of Irish Voters if they were to be introduced.

    What other examples of what's legal abroad but if were done here would you object to. Full speed down the M4 citing Germany's autobahns as example, arranged marriages as common in middle east enforced in Sligo, India's caste system now a legal entity between North and South side Dublin? Regardless wether you agree with law, TDs especially should obey them but actively campaign against them. If you get huge support and it makes sense, the law will get changed.


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    #100
    --LOS--
    Registered Users Posts: 11,028 ✭✭✭✭--LOS--


    Mens rights is one thing, claiming you should have a right to decide what happens to a woman's body is frankly disgusting. I honestly don't know how anyone can think otherwise.


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    #101
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Lapin wrote: »
    Is it? Nobody else seems confused by it.

    I simply made the association between the 'contraceptive trains' of 1971 and questioned have things changed that much since by suggesting that thay haven't as the train still runs to this day, but under a different name.

    It adds a different dimention to the old slogan from Irish Rail We're Getting There.

    Apologies to those who easily confused.

    really bad association since abortion is not a contraceptive. But hey, your agenda driven thread, knock yourself out. Completely different context for the fight for condoms and the debates on abortion.


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    #102
    Pocoyo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Pocoyo


    Abortion is an old distasteful practice that is increasingly becoming more and more unpopular in developed countries,Abortion on demand is seen for what it is,Cold blooded murder and the evidence in the states shows that public opinion is turning against this practice,the more people see the effects that abortion has on its victims mentality and how some of the babies are murdered is horrifying them.

    The majority of these people opposed to abortion are forward thinking people that support gay marriage and other just rights that bring equality.


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    #103
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    --LOS-- wrote: »
    Mens rights is one thing, claiming you should have a right to decide what happens to a woman's body is frankly disgusting. I honestly don't know how anyone can think otherwise.

    Do you not think choosing what happens to a mans life is not as disgusting? Or is that fair game for being a man.


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    #104
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Oh yes,I forgot that women became pregnant by themselves and found a father afterwards.

    The father is the father from the time of insemination and there after,to say that the father should have no say into the way that life is carried or terminated is discriminatory to that party.


    No, the man only becomes a father when the child is born. If there is no child, then the man does not become a father, in the same way that a woman who does not give birth does not become a mother.

    If there is no child, then men are not obliged to financially support a child which doesn't exist?

    You want to argue that men should have a right to force a woman to give birth against her will, and then they should also have a right to abdicate their responsibility towards that child once it's born?

    You can see why that's not going to fly can't you?


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    #105
    MissKittenfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭MissKittenfire


    I saw this I'm very impressed with these ladies.


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    #106
    Uncle Ruckus
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Uncle Ruckus


    Even if you don't agree with abortion you still should allow it to be legal. If someone wants an abortion you know they are just going to go to England.


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    #107
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Do you not think choosing what happens to a mans life is not as disgusting? Or is that fair game for being a man.


    Nobody is choosing what happens to a man's life? If there is no child, then what changes are there to a man's life? You don't even have to have that 'paper abortion' you talked about, as ridiculous a concept as it sounds that gives no regard to a man's obligations towards his child.


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    #108
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    Is it still illegal to discriminate on grounds of gender??heard that question on Neil Boylans radio programme when discussing the fathers rights re. abortion and talk also of the Human and equality rights of the Father ,Did not hear all the programme but I think some state in the US was trying to enshrine a law that the Woman would need the Man"s written agreement before she could have an abortion,


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    #109
    Gongoozler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,263 ✭✭✭Gongoozler


    Uncle Ruckus wrote: »
    Even if you don't agree with abortion you still should allow it to be legal. If someone wants an abortion you know they are just going to go to England.

    yeah. Don't want an abortion? Don't have one then!


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    #110
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    If there is no child, then men are not obliged to financially support a child which doesn't exist?

    You want to argue that men should have a right to force a woman to give birth against her will, and then they should also have a right to abdicate their responsibility towards that child once it's born?

    You can see why that's not going to fly can't you?

    So you're saying that men are nothing more than a financial input into a the life of a child and aren't emotionally attached during the pregnancy?

    I never said any of the other statement,I never said that women should be forced into pregnancy and then have their rights removed.

    What I said was that the fathers rights should also be sought upon during pregnancy and that all avenues should be exhausted prior to abortion. Best practice for the situation where the father wants the child and the mother doesn't,I don't know,that's a hefty amount of legislation and moral practice to reach the definitive answer.But it shouldn't all fall to the woman.


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    #111
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Nobody is choosing what happens to a man's life? If there is no child, then what changes are there to a man's life? You don't even have to have that 'paper abortion' you talked about, as ridiculous a concept as it sounds that gives no regard to a man's obligations towards his child.
    Yes they are,if a woman goes full term the a child is born. If a woman doesn't she has taken that child from the father likely against the fathers will. Whether that is a blob in the womb or not,its still a being with the potential to be an actual child.

    If abortion is sought,the father has lost a child (as much as the mother I might add) taking the chance of fatherhood from the man against his will.

    I never mentioned anything about paper abortion...


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    #112
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    So you're saying that men are nothing more than a financial input into a the life of a child and aren't emotionally attached during the pregnancy?


    No, I never said that. I said that men do not become fathers until a woman actually gives birth. Until then, father's rights are a separate argument.

    You're trying to make the argument that a father should be able to abdicate his responsibility towards that child. He has no responsibility towards a child that isn't yet born.

    I never said any of the other statement,I never said that women should be forced into pregnancy and then have their rights removed.


    You're arguing that a woman should be forced to give birth against her will to a child she does not want, if the man wants that child. You're also arguing at the same time that the man should be able to change his mind once that child is born.

    What I said was that the fathers rights should also be sought upon during pregnancy and that all avenues should be exhausted prior to abortion. Best practice for the situation where the father wants the child and the mother doesn't,I don't know,that's a hefty amount of legislation and moral practice to reach the definitive answer.But it shouldn't all fall to the woman.


    It's not a hefty amount of legislation at all, because women are not merely incubation vessels while a man makes up his mind whether he wants a child or not.

    Another person should have no say in controlling a woman's reproductive rights. I don't think you're at all acknowledging just how short nine months is in terms of human development while, as you put it - all avenues are being exhausted. The logistics and the practicalities of such a scenario are completely unrealistic and unworkable.


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    #113
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,735 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Do you not think choosing what happens to a mans life is not as disgusting? Or is that fair game for being a man.

    The man most likely chose to have sex. It was his own choices that led to the change in his life. Duty and responsibility are not defunct concepts just yet.

    The thought that the father or anyone else could have an entitlement to force a woman to have abortion is frankly sinister. It's an inherently evil idea.


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    #114
    Pocoyo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭Pocoyo


    DeadHand wrote: »
    The thought that the father or anyone else could have an entitlement to force a woman to have abortion is frankly sinister. It's an inherently evil idea.

    Abortion is sinister yes.


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    #115
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Yes they are,if a woman goes full term the a child is born. If a woman doesn't she has taken that child from the father likely against the fathers will. Whether that is a blob in the womb or not,its still a being with the potential to be an actual child.

    If abortion is sought,the father has lost a child (as much as the mother I might add) taking the chance of fatherhood from the man against his will.

    I never mentioned anything about paper abortion...


    If a woman seeks an abortion, she hasn't taken anything from a man, she has made a decision for herself.

    If a man wants to be a father, he has plenty more opportunities to find someone who is willing to give birth to a child for him.

    FWIW, don't worry, I'm not going to get into reductive semantics referring to the unborn child as a blob or any of the rest of it. I find those sort of reductive semantics are as crass and simplistic as the notion that a woman should be forced to give birth against her will because a man wants to become a father.


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    #116
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    DeadHand wrote: »
    The man most likely chose to have sex. It was his own choices that led to the change in his life. Duty and responsibility are not defunct concepts just yet.

    The thought that the father or anyone else could have an entitlement to force a woman to have abortion is frankly sinister. It's an inherently evil idea.
    I clearly forgot that women don't choose to have sex and it was only a mans choice to have a child.

    Isn't a woman having the total entitlement of having an abortion forcing the father to have an abortion (obviously not physically)? How is that not inherently evil?


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    #117
    HugsiePie
    Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭HugsiePie


    The One Doctor wrote: »
    We do have abortion pills freely available. They're called the morning after pill.

    Apart from that, abortion is currently illegal in Ireland except under very specific circumstances. You can't just go into a clinic and ask to have a human's life stopped. That's the law, and that's why these pills are being seized, i.e, they're abortifacients.

    I used to be pro abortion until I got older. However, I would vote yes on a referendum if the limit for abortions was set at 10-12 weeks.
    The morning after pill isn't an abortion, a zygote hasn't even formed at that stage, never mind implantation.


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    #118
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,735 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Where I stand on abortion is I'm against it morally but for it legally. I think it's a terrible choice and there's almost always a better alternative.

    We already have Irish abortion, just not in Ireland. Thousands cross the water every year so the English can deal with our problem for us. This will continue regardless. We now have the typically Irish and morally cowardly position of kinda half having it.

    Time to be pragmatic, grow up as a nation and legalise it.


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    #119
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,735 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Pocoyo wrote: »
    Abortion is sinister yes.

    Please don't misrepresent me.

    Note my use of the word "force".


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    #120
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Uncle Ruckus wrote: »
    Even if you don't agree with abortion you still should allow it to be legal. If someone wants an abortion you know they are just going to go to England.

    I disagree. If you don't believe in abortion, it's likely it is because you believe a human life is being terminated. I can't see how someone of that view would be expected to simply just let it be because it'd be easier.


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    #121
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    Does permanent damage to mental health account for anything?
    And the physical and mental health of the woman?


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