Electric cars

sh1tstirrer

I just checked out the outlander prices start at 42k including 5k grant. The range of the electric motor 52 km which you would have to use a lot to get the big mpg. Probably take 6 hours to charge the batteries as well. Petrol costing €11/100km with existing car seems cheap again.

nokia69

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I just checked out the outlander prices start at 42k including 5k grant. The range of the electric motor 52 km which you would have to use a lot to get the big mpg. Probably take 6 hours to charge the batteries as well. Petrol costing €11/100km with existing car seems cheap again.

52km would cover most peoples needs on an average day, a 6 hour charge if fine, cars spend most of their time parked not driving

salmocab

The problem with charging them is that especially in urban areas, which is where currently people see electric cars being used most, is that lots of people don't have drive ways and use on street parking which generally means no practical means of charging at home and most people are not going to be willing to spend time sitting in a forecourt waiting on a charge. The technology really needs to be improved on the charging front to make electric cars practical for the masses.

Irish Steve

Adam Straight Hand wrote: »

This is the kind of stuff Shell and other oil companies spew. The ratio of fires in petrol/diesel fires is higher than that of electrical cars. But as Shell et al, don't want electric cars to succeed, they tar them with this trash talk.

Have you seen a LiPo fire first hand? I have, after a large model aircraft that was LiPo powered crashed, and the big difference between a ICE vehicle fire and a LiPo fire is the speed of propagation, and the intensity of the fire in the area of the battery, and the battery has a lot to do with that.

There are aspects of fuel fires that are down to bad vehicle design, such as thin walled flexible plastic pipes passing through chassis members close to the wheel arch, which should never have been allowed, and poor maintenance is also a factor.

I'm not involved with fuel companies, or electric car promotion or otherwise, my comments are based simply on the very specific and detailed experience I have of the precautions that are essential to avoiding dangerous fires with LiPo batteries, and some of those procedures are likely to be avoided or abused by owners when they are in use in large numbers.

Even something as simple as attempting to overcharge a LiPo can have very serious implications, and it will be all too easy for a user to take the attitude " I want to get to my destination without stopping to recharge, so a few minutes extra will make sure that it's fully charged". Sounds safe enough, but if the charging management systems are not absolutely solid in the battery management, that is one of the quickest ways to end up with a battery fire.

ted1

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

What's the price of the outlander? I'm sure it's well beyond the reach of the average motorist.

About 42k, close enough to the petrol equivalent. But the technology is there and will fed down the range very soon

ted1

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I just checked out the outlander prices start at 42k including 5k grant. The range of the electric motor 52 km which you would have to use a lot to get the big mpg. Probably take 6 hours to charge the batteries as well. Petrol costing €11/100km with existing car seems cheap again.

probably take 6 hours? Now you demonstrating that you don't know how the technology works and throwing out numbers like a Member of the AIB Board, you need to look into it. The petrol engine works as a generator and charges ithe battery as it goes.

Read this.

"The Outlander PHEV does everything in its power to offer electric driving instead of using power from the petrol engine attached. The battery is designed to offer you 50km of electric driving, but with technologies in place through the petrol engine to recharge your battery, and the regeneration of electricity off the wheels, it is actually quite difficult to drive uneconomically in this machine – unless of course you really put the foot down and drive lik"
http://www.cbg.ie/mobile/cbg-official-reviews/details/first-impressions-of-the-mitsubishi-outlander-phev

corkoian

Specialun wrote: »

0-60 in 3.25.......days

0 - 60 in 3.2 seconds

nokia69

ted1 wrote: »

probably take 6 hours? Now you demonstrating that you don't know how the technology works and throwing out numbers like a Member of the AIB Board, you need to look into it. The petrol engine works as a generator and charges ithe battery as it goes.

Read this.

true

but to get the best mpg from the outlander you need to plug it in

the car will still work if you never plug it in, but most people will charge it at night

smash

Renault are a joke the way you have to lease the batteries. It means you never actually own the car! At the same time, I've heard costs of up to 10k for battery replacements and all other manufacturers only offer a maximum of 6/7yr warranty on the batteries. This does not make them desirable in the 2nd hand market. Then there's the range which is useless and the ever rising costs of electricity which will eventually make a charge as expensive as petrol.

Electric is the future? No, it's a fad. The sooner the go the hydrogen route the better. It's already easy to burn salt water, but the manufacturers won't go down that route because they're all tied in with the oil and energy companies in some form.

nokia69

smash wrote: »

Renault are a joke the way you have to lease the batteries. It means you never actually own the car! At the same time, I've heard costs of up to 10k for battery replacements and all other manufacturers only offer a maximum of 6/7yr warranty on the batteries. This does not make them desirable in the 2nd hand market. Then there's the range which is useless and the ever rising costs of electricity which will eventually make a charge as expensive as petrol.

Electric is the future? No, it's a fad. The sooner the go the hydrogen route the better. It's already easy to burn salt water, but the manufacturers won't go down that route because they're all tied in with the oil and energy companies in some form.

hydrogen LOL

fool cells are a scam

UCDVet

WhiteWalls wrote: »

Donal Og Cusack was on RTE 1 there and he said that in ten years time 50% of us will be driving electric cars? Very skeptical myself and find it hard to believe.

I think I heard the same thing 10 years ago.

Honestly, if it hasn't taken off in Ireland, I think that's a good indication that isn't going to. Conditions for electric cars couldn't be better here.

smash

nokia69 wrote: »

hydrogen LOL

fool cells are a scam

But hydrogen power should be investigated further. It's the most abundant chemical substance on the planet!

nokia69

smash wrote: »

But hydrogen power should be investigated further. It's the most abundant chemical substance on the planet!

and its locked up in water

in the long run battery electric cars will win, the model S is proof of this

UCDVet

nokia69 wrote: »

and its locked up in water

in the long run battery electric cars will win, the model S is proof of this

I don't own one and I've never even driven one, but most of what I hear people say about the model S that they like would work just as well in a non-electric car.

Having said that, I'd love to own one, if I had the extra money. It sounds like a great car.

smash

nokia69 wrote: »

and its locked up in water

in the long run battery electric cars will win, the model S is proof of this

No it's not. It's proof that you can find a diamond in the rough. That's all.

nokia69

smash wrote: »

No it's not. It's proof that you can find a diamond in the rough. That's all.

so you think its random good luck

you don't build a car that good by being lucky, people like you said the model S would never get built and you will say the same about the model E

the future is electric it can't be stopped now

smash

nokia69 wrote: »

so you think its random good luck

you don't build a car that good by being lucky, people like you said the model S would never get built and you will say the same about the model E

the future is electric it can't be stopped now

People like me? I never said anything wouldn't be build!

I said its a diamond in the rough. It is. Islets a good car, and you have to pay a hefty price for it. You think regular consumer cars will be anything as good as that?

Like I said earlier, up to 10k for battery replacements and only a max 7yr warranty doesn't make current electric cars viable in the 2nd hand market. And those figures came from a BMW rep I spoke to.

nokia69

smash wrote: »

People like me? I never said anything wouldn't be build!

I said its a diamond in the rough. It is. Islets a good car, and you have to pay a hefty price for it. You think regular consumer cars will be anything as good as that?

Like I said earlier, up to 10k for battery replacements and only a max 7yr warranty doesn't make current electric cars viable in the 2nd hand market. And those figures came from a BMW I spoke to.

I agree its all about the battery and batteries will keep getting better and at the same time the cost will drop

for Tesla its an 8yr warranty and I bet they are being conservative, the batteries in the model S can last for decades if you keep them charged between 20 to 80%

BMW are years behind Tesla, they are still trying to match the roadster

yes I think the model E will be an excellent car, 50KWh battery, 200+ miles per charge, 4 wheel drive, 0 to 60 in about 3 seconds, fast charging for long journeys

smash

nokia69 wrote: »

I agree its all about the battery and batteries will keep getting better and at the same time the cost will drop

battery technology has barely moved in decades. Even look at phones... A phone still can't last a full day. And they deplete without use. A petrol car doesn't use petrol while its sitting up. They also weigh a lot so weight can be an issue with electric.

nokia69 wrote: »

for Tesla its an 8yr warranty and I bet they are being conservative, the batteries in the model S can last for decades if you keep them charged between 20 to 80%

BMW are years behind Tesla, they are still trying to match the roadster

Tesla are one manufacturer that make cars which are unattainable to the general public. Manufacturers can not afford to produce cars to Tesla standard at a low cost. And for electric to become mainstream, we need a high standard and a reasonable cost. Both of which are miles away for the average consumer. Especially in the 2nd hand market.

The environmental cost to build electric cars also does not make them Eco friendly.

nokia69

smash wrote: »

battery technology has barely moved in decades. Even look at phones... A phone still can't last a full day. And they deplete without use. A petrol car doesn't use petrol while its sitting up. They also weigh a lot so weight can be an issue with electric.

Tesla are one manufacturer that make cars which are unattainable to the general public. Manufacturers can not afford to produce cars to Tesla standard at a low cost. And for electric to become mainstream, we need a high standard and a reasonable cost. Both of which are miles away for the average consumer. Especially in the 2nd hand market.

The environmental cost to build electric cars also does not make them Eco friendly.

batteries get better by about 8% a year, the reason phones can't last all day is because phones keep getting bigger screens and faster processors

the Tesla roadster had a 53KWh battery, the model S has an 85KWh battery which is almost the same volume but also costs far less

a 50KWh battery for the model E will cost under 10K, its only 2 or 3 years away

smash

nokia69 wrote: »

batteries get better by about 8% a year, the reason phones can't last all day is because phones keep getting bigger screens and faster processors

the Tesla roadster had a 53KWh battery, the model S has an 85KWh battery which is almost the same volume but also costs far less

a 50KWh battery for the model E will cost under 10K, its only 2 or 3 years away

That's only if they can do it. Still a few years to go before we find out! http://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/05/teslas-gigafactory-may-hit-100-per-kilowatt-hour-holy-grail-ev-batteries-report-predicts/

Antar Bolaeisk

nokia69 wrote: »

batteries get better by about 8% a year, the reason phones can't last all day is because phones keep getting bigger screens and faster processors

the Tesla roadster had a 53KWh battery, the model S has an 85KWh battery which is almost the same volume but also costs far less

a 50KWh battery for the model E will cost under 10K, its only 2 or 3 years away

I wish I could have one of those batteries for my phone.

Antar Bolaeisk

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

I wish I could have one of those batteries for my phone.

I'd like to see you put it in your pocket!

ted1

smash wrote: »

And for electric to become mainstream, we need a high standard and a reasonable cost. Both of which are miles away for the average consumer. Especially in the 2nd hand market.

The environmental cost to build electric cars also does not make them Eco friendly.

We're either side of peak oil, depends who you listen too. So like it or lump it the days of ICE are numbered. With the high penetration of renewable energy being added to national grids electricity is the clear favourite to replace it as the main energy/ fuel.

Battery technology had moved on. Reps sell current models and often havn't got a clue what is in the pipeline. So I would pay no attention to what a BMW rep says.

Lithium batteries don't deplete, they hold their charge.

ted1

smash wrote: »

Like I said earlier, up to 10k for battery replacements and only a max 7yr warranty doesn't make current electric cars viable in the 2nd hand market. And those figures came from a BMW rep I spoke to.

Ruth renaults battery rental they'll replace the battery once it drops to 75%. So no large fees.

Where did you pull the 10k figure from?
What ICE car offers more thank 7 year warranty?

kyote00

An interesting and often not discussed aspect of the battery technology is where the lithium deposits are found around the world.

If Lithium becomes the new oil - bolivia, chile and china are soon to become the new "oil sheiks" of the world.

Security and sustainability of supply will really be no different than it is today for oil ...

If only there was some resource, found in abundance everywhere HHHHmmmm.........

Paddy@CIRL

I was raised as a car sort of guy, in a motorsport sort of family. For as long as I can remember, I've always been properly into cars. Through school, I would read issues of car magazines instead of studying, in college I would always create projects around the motoring industry. When I left college, I began working as an automotive photographer and continue as such today. The idea of an electric car was an affront to everything I loved about motor vehicles.

Then I drove the new Volkswagen eGolf.

I'm not a wordy person, so I'll never be able to accurately tell you just how impressive the car is. It looks like a Golf, has the same room as a Golf but is 100% battery powered. The batteries are spread throughout the car, so there's only a minimal loss of space. Range is around 200km and it costs €1.90 to charge from empty and will charge to ~80% on a fast charger in around half an hour. That's the boring bit.

The impressive bit is when you sit into one, put on your seatbelt and turn on the ignition. Nothing happens. As it least it seems that way. In pure silence, you release the brake and move away in complete silence. It's a surreal experience. The closest thing I can relate it to, is rolling downhill in a car with the ignition switched off. (Don't try that, you will kill yourself of someones else).

Driving through Dublin for the first time, furthered the surreal nature of the experience. Instead of an engine idling, you sit listening to the world around you. I can't emphasise just how strange an experience that is. Off the line, it is a quick car by any standards. With instant power delivery, you often take off much quicker than you would expect and easily outpace other traffic.

The eGolf has a normal 'D' for 'Drive' mode along with an energy recovering 'B' mode. In the latter mode, when you lift off the accelerator the car actively harvests energy from the wheels. It's quite aggressive and is enough to switch on the brake lights as it slows the car down. In theory, it's possible to drive the car normally using just one pedal. Press to accelerate, release to brake.

Honestly, for anyone doubting the technology, you absolutely have to try one. I will concede that the range, for my particular needs at least, isn't enough just yet. But if I was living and working within Dublin, it would be an absolute no brainer. It's a very exciting technology which I'll be paying a lot more attention to in the future.

AllGunsBlazing

What about Bio Diesel? Or is that doomed to be the betamax of next gen fuels?

I think I read somewhere that existing diesel engines can be coverted quite easily to run on bio fuels.

AllGunsBlazing

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

What about Bio Diesel? Or is that doomed to be the betamax of next gen fuels?

I think I read somewhere that existing diesel engines can be coverted quite easily to run on bio fuels.

One of the problems with bio fuels in general is that they are so energy intensive to produce and that they displace other production for food and the like.

Electric cars have a future, but only the better off will be able to afford then for the foreseeable future. I expect that we'll see a reduction in general road usage first.

Irish Steve

OK, let's live outside the box for a moment. The comment on this thread, and on another thread have provoked this suggestion.

Let's assume that for whatever reason, it became possible to build sensible size nuclear power stations in Ireland.

That could solve the issue of heating houses, run the stations at high power levels and forget oil heating and maybe even gas, and also use the spare power to extract hydrogen from water to provide fuel for power cells for vehicles of all sizes, both car and commercial transport size.

Spend money on electrifying all the remaining diesel powered rail lines, generating realistic employment, and reducing the cost of rail travel. Convert all the public transport systems to use Hydrogen based fuel systems.

Massive reduction in carbon fuel tax intake for the Government, and massive reduction in fuel taxes. No shortage of fuel, as Hydrogen can be found anywhere.

massive reduction in imports of carbon based fuels. Massive reductions in pollution from vehicles.

Option to use wind and tidal resources as top up power sources to supplement the nuclear base.

Downside? Government has less tax take. Problems if storms damage the power distribution infrastructure

Positives. Way less pollution from vehicles. Significantly reduced distribution costs for EVERYTHING, cheaper travel, cheaper heating for homes, energy security as not dependent on countries like Russia for Gas or Oil.