Electric Ireland Stops Feed In Tariff for Microgenerators

Coles

Coles wrote: »

@user 97, It makes no sense to export excess electricity for nothing. The FG/Labour government have killed the renewable energy industry.

True, I have a 4kw system installed at the start of the "summer" and have given away about 30% of the electricity generated .

Until I can afford to add the battery module & batteries it will remain that way.

user 97

Thank You Donal,
Your comment proves my estimates are close to reality,
also, a thermal gap must be left between each panel at installation.

user 97

hello again,
my figures do seem a bit off.

* Polysilicon cells operate at over 80%
* 0.7% depletion is more accurate
* 5 Solar hours gain is a fair estimate for Ireland, this estimate can simply be used in an energy analysis to determine
the annual yield expected, although it may be a little on the low side , but I never want to suggest more than
is realistic at our latitude.

Modules are rated at 1000W/m²
While the cells can be as high as 20% efficient. The modules are ~15%.
If your 80% figure is not efficiency but expected output of rated on a sunny day then this may be more realistic.
5 hours gain is not a fair estimate if you only have 5 hours exposure then it's Winter and you won't have anywhere near peak output.
These statement are entirely back of an envelope calculations I'd recommend drawing from collected data.

quentingargan

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

These statement are entirely back of an envelope calculations I'd recommend drawing from collected data.

There are very comprehensive simulators that can work out likely output each hour of each day. I use PVsyst but it costs €1k plus. However, Retscreen is free and pretty good, has local climate data links etc. I'd start there.

But the overall jist of this thread remains the same. Unless you opt for battery storage, you will never match your production to your consumption, so to build an effective PV model, you need payment for surpluses exported.

MayoSalmon

Coles wrote: »

And that's the bit that suggests that you are talking through your hat. An inverter can not regulate the consumption of electricity. If the home owner has no need for the electricity being produced then it is wasted. In Ireland it is not possible to get reimbursed for exporting excess production to the National Grid.[/QUOTE]

And you sir are talking through your hat.

Electric Ireland will pay you 9.0 cent per kWh you export and have been doing so for the past 6 years. You will have to pay for your own meter through as ESB networks have stopped supporting that.

recedite

The situation seems to be that a "new customer" won't get anything but an existing customer buying their electricity from Electric Ireland will get 9c (up until Dec 2016)
Even for existing customers thinking of installing PV, the uncertainty of whether there will be any future payment is going to be offputting.

joeirish

Hi recedite

I think the best way it to start putting pressure on government and opposition TDs, there is an election coming! So I've started what I hope will become a campaign to get FiT reinstated. I've set up a Facebook page as a starting point which can be found at https://www.facebook.com/FiTIreland

If people want to they can go there and Like the page and maybe post something about the system they have installed. The idea is that if there are a lot of Likes then this can be used to show politicians that there is a significant number of voters who want FiT. Then maybe something might happen.

There is also a consulation process about the close on Sept 11, so only a few days. Details can be found at http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/energy/en-ie/Pages/Consultation/Renewable-Electricity-Support-Scheme-Consultation.aspx and submissions can be emailed to ress@dcenr.gov.ie

Encourage anybody you know to make a submission in support of small scale domestic microgeneration systems and reinstatement of FiT.

Joe

Coles

@Recedite, That's exactly right.

@MayoSalmon. Apology accepted.

quentingargan

joeirish wrote: »

Hi recedite

I think the best way it to start putting pressure on government and opposition TDs, there is an election coming! So I've started what I hope will become a campaign to get FiT reinstated. I've set up a Facebook page as a starting point which can be found at https://www.facebook.com/FiTIreland

If people want to they can go there and Like the page and maybe post something about the system they have installed. The idea is that if there are a lot of Likes then this can be used to show politicians that there is a significant number of voters who want FiT. Then maybe something might happen.

There is also a consulation process about the close on Sept 11, so only a few days. Details can be found at http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/energy/en-ie/Pages/Consultation/Renewable-Electricity-Support-Scheme-Consultation.aspx and submissions can be emailed to ress@dcenr.gov.ie

Encourage anybody you know to make a submission in support of small scale domestic microgeneration systems and reinstatement of FiT.

Joe

Thanks Joe. Have made a submission. See here. Feel free to use as fodder for ideas, but don't cog word for word

air

Consultation period extended to September 18th.

quentingargan

Some people haven't been waiting for the consultation period to end and have already sought planning permission for huge solar parks. See here.

Which calls into question whether the consultation process is a done deal, and if people with friends in low places (or even Lowry places) have a heads up on what is coming down the track.

A number of companies are already snapping up land and signing deals with farmers for solar parks. See here and here for example.

If you want solar to be a microgeneration rather than megageneration issue, it is good that there is still some time to voice an opinion.

nice_guy80

According to several industry people I talked to at the self build expo last weekend, you will be able to sell back your excess electricity to the grid next year some time

But, they might have been just trying to sell me their solar panels!

hexosan

nice_guy80 wrote: »

According to several industry people I talked to at the self build expo last weekend, you will be able to sell back your excess electricity to the grid next year some time

But, they might have been just trying to sell me their solar panels!

You reckon, did they happen to quote a source for this info.

quentingargan

hexosan wrote: »

You reckon, did they happen to quote a source for this info.

Thats interesting... There is a consultation process going on, which hopefully isn't a forgone conclusion. But there are companies run by people with connections busily applying for planning permission for solar parks, and pulling in investment funds on the assumption that there will be a generous tariff regime next year.

I hope there is a tariff on the way, and I hope it favors domestic and industrial rooftop way above solar parks, but something here is a bit whiffy....

rolion

I hope for good news...

What the new legislation can bring good or bad for us,smaller producers of let's say under 5kw ?
Can any of you describe an existing system that you own and how is working please ?
Also...can you suggest a blueprint for a new installation ?
Do you think we will get new smart meilters installed at house side ?
Will the energy generated will be offset against the energy consumption, in financial terms ?
Can the "new" limit the tech parameters of the systems so you'll need to buy only systems with a pre-determined depth or colour of the ... framing?
Will the local suppliers will take advantages in terms of pricing structure ?

Thanks

quentingargan

rolion wrote: »

Can any of you describe an existing system that you own and how is working please ?
Also...can you suggest a blueprint for a new installation ?
Do you think we will get new smart meilters installed at house side ?
Will the energy generated will be offset against the energy consumption, in financial terms ?
Can the "new" limit the tech parameters of the systems so you'll need to buy only systems with a pre-determined depth or colour of the ... framing?
Will the local suppliers will take advantages in terms of pricing structure ?

Thanks

I have some rather old 230W panels - eight of them facing south at about 45 degrees running through a slightly under-sized inverter. You can monitor the output of the system here. This is based in West Cork which has less sunshine than Dublin etc.

I have a smart meter and I get paid for my exports at present as I had registered to export power a few years ago. My tariff runs out at the end of this year.

I reckon we use about half of the electricity produced. The balance is exported. If we didn't have the feed in tariff, that surplus would be donated free to the grid. Madness.

I got my smart meter for free, but later they started charging €340 for installation of a smart meter to record exports. That is annoying because you could use any meter to record exports, and such meters in the UK cost €40. If there is a proposal to role out smart meters, I don't see why microgenerators should have to buy them when everyone else gets them for free (ahem, assuming they do..)

Hard to suggest a blueprint. I think whatever suits your budget. I personally wouldn't jump in until there is a tariff in place, and then I would decide. In the meantime, I might be tempted to use an OWL monitor to see how much power I normally consume during daytime.

At present, prices in Ireland are quite competitive. That may change if there is a gold rush when the tariff comes in, but I doubt it. The framing etc., is a matter of taste. Black frames are slightly more expensive than bright aluminium but I think on a slate roof, the difference is well worth it. On a new house, I would install roof-integrated - the difference is minimal. Planning exemptions apply to solar on roofs up to 12m2 which is about 1.8kw of panels. If you want to go above 7 panels, you need to apply for planning, and I think a sensible layout and black framing would ease the process...

rolion

rolion wrote: »

Also...can you suggest a blueprint for a new installation ?

This is what I'm working on in my spare time.


Still have a few wrinkles to iron out like a hard wired earth fault protection because my inverter/charger uses a relay which I think is unreliable.

The 12V side could be done with a buck converter but I have most of that equipment already so seemed to me like the most efficient way to do things.



Self consumption system. No FITs.
I might add another TriStar later for diversion control for water heating or someat else.

freddyuk

Is the Sunsaver correct? It will not take 25mm2 cables? Also I would expect it to be connected directly to the battery? You seem to have loads coming directly off the battery bypassing the protection of the controller?
Not had time to look more closely so maybe I missed something.....

rolion

Can't see it properly on the mobile...
Is that a project based on battery's ? If yes,have taken in consideration that the price per kw is dearer trough battery than from mains ?
Thanks

freddyuk

That's just a draft at the moment still some issues to resolve and not much spare time at the moment.

freddyuk wrote: »

Is the Sunsaver correct? It will not take 25mm2 cables? Also I would expect it to be connected directly to the battery? You seem to have loads coming directly off the battery bypassing the protection of the controller?

Oops yeah that's a mistake 10mm² will probably do, it's spec-ed for 0.3% voltage drop so depending on length when I get that far.

The only direct to battery connections are the bus bars and sense wires. I don't want spider-webs at the battery terminals.

The LVD on that unit is set too low and only 120W. I might use it at some point for something but I can live without. That's what the volt-ammeter and discretion are for.

rolion wrote: »

Is that a project based on battery's ? If yes,have taken in consideration that the price per kw is dearer trough battery than from mains ?

Yurp duly considered, batteries are freecycled. The benefit of extra low voltage is I'm not obliged to hire a sparks for most of the install.
Even with free batteries the payback is not a motive because the efficiencies are prohibitive.

Freddy have you installed any MultiPlus setups? I notice the earth neutralising relay can be hard wired on those, does this not get tricky when using it as a charger?

{EDIT} .jpg attached for zoomage, another mistake MCBO = RCBO

recedite

quentingargan wrote: »

The 9c being paid to solar microgenerators is very little more than the 7c or 8c paid to wind farms. but arguably the electricity is more valuable because it is 100% produced during the day, usually at a time when there is less wind, and it is already on the local loop.

On the bulk pricing situation, I see that the new nuclear plant to be built by the Chinese in the Irish Sea (Hinkley Point) is being guaranteed the equivalent of 12.3c per unit. Or £89.50 per MW/Hr. Presumably we will end up importing some of this electricity at times, via the interconnector, so we'll possibly be paying slightly more for it.
Compared to renewables such as wind and solar, nuclear is generally a more reliable source. Although in this particular case, the fact that a foreign govt. could switch it off at any moment in time might be a longer term concern.

Anyway, home produced microgenerated power with no long term radioactivity cleanup costs has got to be worth at least this 12.3c/kWhr amount.

nice_guy80

recedite wrote: »

On the bulk pricing situation, I see that the new nuclear plant to be built by the Chinese in the Irish Sea (Hinkley Point) is being guaranteed the equivalent of 12.3c per unit. Or £89.50 per MW/Hr. Presumably we will end up importing some of this electricity at times, via the interconnector, so we'll possibly be paying slightly more for it.
Compared to renewables such as wind and solar, nuclear is generally a more reliable source. Although in this particular case, the fact that a foreign govt. could switch it off at any moment in time might be a longer term concern.

Anyway, home produced microgenerated power with no long term radioactivity cleanup costs has got to be worth at least this 12.3c/kWhr amount.

I miss the green party
they wouldn't have let ESB away with this

recedite

Well the plant is being built on the English coast so its nothing to do with ESB Networks or Electric Ireland.
Also there is a debate within Greens about nuclear; many now believe it is the only realistic way to save the planet from catastrophic global warming.

But my main point is that if the Chinese can be guaranteed more 12c per unit in the long term for supplying nuclear electricity, surely ordinary Irish citizens should be guaranteed at least that amount for supplying clean green sustainable power into the same grid.

ted1

recedite wrote: »

Well the plant is being built on the English coast so its nothing to do with ESB Networks or Electric Ireland.
Also there is a debate within Greens about nuclear; many now believe it is the only realistic way to save the planet from catastrophic global warming.

But my main point is that if the Chinese can be guaranteed more 12c per unit in the long term for supplying nuclear electricity, surely ordinary Irish citizens should be guaranteed at least that amount for supplying clean green sustainable power into the same grid.

The difference is that they only import via the EWIC when it's needed. And they wound be paying 12c for it. Nuclear feeds in to the national grid and the price fluctuates. In Ireland the SEM price varies for 20 euro /MWH to 350euro/MWH.

Paying 12c for micro generation at 3:15am in the summer makes no sense. It's just looking for other electricity users to subsidise your generation. If your really interested in reducing CO2 and generating your own Elec, you should maybe look at forming a co op and building a proper 1Mwh+ system

recedite

Solar PV is going to be during the summer alright, but during peak business daytime hours. Wind is usually stronger in autumn winter, day and night.
So its not fair to suggest renewables = off-peak generation, or that renewables sold at 12c is being "subsidised" by the public who would be paying 18c plus for it.
Also I don't see any advantage to having a minimum of 1MW centralised production, when that power then has to be distributed to dispersed consumers, with all the associated distribution losses and costs.
Dispersed energy production is actually more valuable.

ted1

recedite wrote: »

Solar PV is going to be during the summer alright, but during peak business daytime hours. Wind is usually stronger in autumn winter, day and night.
So its not fair to suggest renewables = off-peak generation, or that renewables sold at 12c is being "subsidised" by the public who would be paying 18c plus for it.
Also I don't see any advantage to having a minimum of 1MW centralised production, when that power then has to be distributed to dispersed consumers, with all the associated distribution losses and costs.
Dispersed energy production is actually more valuable.

Once again your talking rubbish 12c is the SEM price. 18c is the retail price inclusive of Vat and TUOS and DUOS cost which are extra to the SEM price

Per kWh a 1MWH turbine is much more efficient and economical than 10 ,100kwh turbines

Wind is curtailed when it's strONG particular in winter as the grid can't handle more than 50% SNSP

ted1

Currently the market price is between 3-6c/ kWh , explain why they should pay 12c.

quentingargan

ted1 wrote: »

Per kWh a 1MWH turbine is much more efficient and economical than 10 ,100kwh turbines

That's true - a 3Mw turbine on a mountain is hugely more cost effective than a 10kw turbine on a farm. But the same economies of scale don't apply to solar PV. In fact, it is cheaper per Kw to put solar PV on a factory roof than it is to build the solar parks now being proposed by investors who are already signing up farmers and making planning applications in anticipation that policy is going to go their way.

quentingargan

quentingargan wrote: »

That's true - a 3Mw turbine on a mountain is hugely more cost effective than a 10kw turbine on a farm. But the same economies of scale don't apply to solar PV. In fact, it is cheaper per Kw to put solar PV on a factory roof than it is to build the solar parks now being proposed by investors who are already signing up farmers and making planning applications in anticipation that policy is going to go their way.

A lot of that is simply down to the fact that the cost of the mounting equipment is very expensive for wind and cheap for solar pv. A 10kw wind turbine would require a tower that would probably cost about 20% of that for one 3mW tower.

With solar pv the cost of the mounting frames are directly relative to the surface area of the panels.