Electric Ireland Stops Feed In Tariff for Microgenerators

Coles

bluesteel wrote: »

Again you're missing the point. I didn't say it was a bargain.

The point that they are ignoring this supposed bargain - and don't think it worth their while to buy your power at even 2c says a lot about its value.

So you don't think electricity is worth 2c per unit? Are you aware that the electricity does the same thing as Grid electricity?

It might be 'green' but it's not broccoli.

bluesteel

Coles wrote: »

You have obviously expanded a lot of energy in waging war against wind farms, which is fine, but MicroGeneration is not wind farms. It is a very broad range of technologies, none of which are in synch with each other in the way that a single energy source is. If you are trying to make an argument that small scale energy sources shouldn't be utilised because they might reduce the production of electricity from a large methane power station then you are on your own with that one.

I think you would be best to step back form this debate and actually consider what it is about. I have no interest in wasting my time educating you when aren't prepared to make any effort yourself.


Google 'microgeneration' and 'distributed generation' and start there.

that's a rubbish assumption verging on ad hom.

In fact I think decent scale windfarms have a huge role to play - (a shame the NIMBYs hold them up), rinky dink hobbyists with sporadic PV - not so much.

I'm obviously wasting my time trying to get hard data from someone who clearly has none and is only self-interested. You're refusing to acknowledge the downsides of intermittent sporadic power - i.e. the fact that backup is required because larger suppliers are required to have 100% uptime - backup that have to be paid for [by the provider and so the ordinary customers] will sit idle for some of the time. You're then free loading on the guarantees provided by the big bad power companies.

You're essentially arguing that you should be allowed to cherry-pick when you supply the grid. A bit like the Irish tradesman (ah shure I'll show up when I feel like you and then you can pay me by the hour - I'll dictate the hour however). Are you a tradesman by any chance?

Have a look at what Colm McCarthy wrote about the economics of all this.

bluesteel

Coles wrote: »

So you don't think electricity is worth 2c per unit? Are you aware that the electricity does the same thing as Grid electricity?

Instead of telling me to read up - You might want to read my post? I doesn't matter what I think - Electric Ireland and other suppliers don't think its worth 2c

gman2k

bluesteel wrote: »

..... rinky dink hobbyists with sporadic PV - not so much.

You are personalizing your argument too much.

On the continent, there appears to be a viable industry revolving around micro generation (judging by the amount of solar pv I saw in Munich last week it must be considerable).
Is MG "rinky dink" on the continent too? Or is it just in Ireland?
There has been considered opposition and barriers put in place by the network here, in terms of overly expensive meters, unique requirements for inverters and now finally withdrawal from the scheme.
MG will not solve our future energy needs, nor will gas fired, nor coal, nor wind, nor tidal or biomass or anything else.
But, all of the above have a part to play, including MG.
One thing is certain: Dependence on imported fuel to convert to electricity or drive our transport is not sustainable nor affordable in the very near future.
There is a new world coming down the tracks in terms of access to energy, we need to accept that major change is coming and be prepared for it.

bluesteel

gman2k wrote: »

You are personalizing your argument too much.

On the continent, there appears to be a viable industry revolving around micro generation (judging by the amount of solar pv I saw in Munich last week it must be considerable).

the feed in tarrifs/subsidies in Germany are massive.

gman2k

bluesteel wrote: »

the feed in tarrifs/subsidies in Germany are massive.

Why?
Do the Germans know something we don't?
What are they trying to encourage over there?
They need to come to Ireland and see how we do things properly here.

murphaph

bluesteel wrote: »

the feed in tarrifs/subsidies in Germany are massive.

If I hook up today I'll get 9c and it reduces every month by a fraction of a cent. The economics today in Germany of PV mean self consumption is preferred when at all possible for anyone installing today or since about 2011. Anyone who installed before then is getting more than it costs from the grid, but even for them the landscape is changing. Electricity costs 30c/kWh here now.

I will be installing a "full roof" PV array on our new build next year. Our goal will be to (sensibly) consume as much of the produced electricity ourselves, To that end, we'll run a heat pump in the afternoon while we're at work, heating our hot water and central heating buffer tanks for use in the evening. We'll also set our dishwasher to run at noon and the washing machine to kick in as well when that's finished etc. With a bit of home automation you can run a number of things at peak PV production times.

I anticipate that in the medium term, say 5 to 10 years, battery tech will have moved on and become substantially cheaper, just as the panels themselves have done. When the sums add up, I'll add direct storage to the mix.

I am absolutely not setting up PV to make money from the grid. Those days are gone here. The 9c is simply a sort of reassuring back up, so I know that if on really sunny summer afternoons I can't consume or store the energy, that I'll get something for it when it goes into the grid (to power my office air conditioner lol).

Coles

bluesteel wrote: »

I'm obviously wasting my time trying to get hard data from someone who clearly has none and is only self-interested.

Er...? What 'hard data' do you want? There's a very good chance I have it, but I'm not so sure that you'll understand it.

You're refusing to acknowledge the downsides of intermittent sporadic power - i.e. the fact that backup is required because larger suppliers are required to have 100% uptime - backup that have to be paid for [by the provider and so the ordinary customers] will sit idle for some of the time. You're then free loading on the guarantees provided by the big bad power companies.

You're essentially arguing that you should be allowed to cherry-pick when you supply the grid.

Well yes. I'd like to 'cherry pick' when I supply the grid in the very same way that I 'cherry pick' when I have a shower or turn on the telly.

MicroGeneration has the very same impact on the National Grid and Coal/Oil/Methane power plants as energy conservation and increased efficiencies. Technically there is absolutely no difference. I know you can't grasp that concept, but that doesn't change it.

Have a look at what Colm McCarthy wrote about the economics of all this.

'All this'? Why don't you try to point out anything Colm McCarthy said about MicroGeneration. Just one thing. Go on. I think you'll find he criticises the wind farm policy that you claim to be in favour of, but not MicroGeneration!

bluesteel

Coles wrote: »

MicroGeneration has the very same impact on the National Grid and Coal/Oil/Methane power plants as energy conservation and increased efficiencies. Technically there is absolutely no difference. I know you can't grasp that concept, but that doesn't change it.

:eek:

I think you're the one having difficulty grasping a simple concept. (This is so basic I'm surprised you let yourself get called out on it. And to think I thought you were a tradesman - obviously not.)

Energy conservation changes the power demand profile completely differently to PV.

A 30 minute burst of sunshine will have a completely different effect on the grid than having say everyone switch to energy saving washing machines.

Can't you see that? - on a dull day the Coal burning plants fire up to to produce X - now suddenly the sun comes out - and loads of people say-" not only do we have our own power now - we want to supply our neighbours and inject power into the grid - and get paid for it"

Ten minutes late - sun goes back in - all the rinky dink suppliers say - "no more, sorry" and the large supplier is legally obliged to replace all the power instantaneously!!


You want a fixed price for supplying a product - but you decide when to supply it! And you want a back up too. It's like booking a restaurant - cancelling at the last minute and then showing up late because you burnt your dinner

bluesteel

Coles wrote: »

Er...? What 'hard data' do you want? There's a very good chance I have it, but I'm not so sure that you'll understand it.

Let's see -

the cost of a shutting down a coal plant for 10 minutes because the sun has come out

Oh, and Colm McC wrote about the economic issues around intermittent nature of Windfarms and the cost of having a redundant supply. It should be obvious that these problems are also there for microgeneration - except PV is even more intermittent than wind.

Coles

bluesteel wrote: »

Let's see -

the cost of a shutting down a coal plant for 10 minutes because the sun has come out

Oh, and Colm mcC wrote about the economic issues around intermittent nature of Windfarms and the cost of having a redundant supply. It should be obviously that these problems are also there for microgeneration - except PV is even more intermittent than wind.

A complete and utter FAIL.

Run along son. I've wasted enough time on your nonsense.

bluesteel

Coles wrote: »

A complete and utter FAIL.

Run along son. I've wasted enough time on your nonsense.

Oh, I'm sorry. I touched on the issues that professionals running the electricity grid have to deal with - obviously the hobbyists who want money from the suppliers should be on a pedestal

You can't grasp the concept I'm talking about - that last spiel about conservation having the same effect as micro-generation was embarrassing. I was going to get into the variance of supply but guessed correctly that statistics weren't your forte.

if you think that the effect of conservation is the same as random injections of power all I can say is please don't try to change a lightbulb any time soon.

murphaph

I see your general point bluesteel, but I think the idea of a guaranteed FIT is to provide a cushion to would be MG adopters. Firing up the coal plant doesn't just cost money, it releases CO2 permanently into the atmosphere some countries take their Kyoto responsibilities seriously and attempt to minimise those emissions.

The state may prefer to have the coal genie kept in the bottle and to take PV energy whenever it can get it, rather than saying "that stuff is unreliable, let's just burn coal all the time so the expensive coal plants don't lie idle" (in fact of course it's gas plants that are switched on and off like this, coal is too slow). At least, that's my take on the current German policy.

We should also remember that the sun is pretty much always shining somewhere and the wind is blowing somewhere, so the more MG that comes on stream, the higher the likelihood is that we can catch that energy where and when it is available.

bluesteel

murphaph wrote: »

I see your general point bluesteel, but I think the idea of a guaranteed FIT is to provide a cushion to would be MG adopters. Firing up the coal plant doesn't just cost money, it releases CO2 permanently into the atmosphere some countries take their Kyoto responsibilities seriously and attempt to minimise those emissions.

The state may prefer to have the coal genie kept in the bottle and to take PV energy whenever it can get it, rather than saying "that stuff is unreliable, let's just burn coal all the time so the expensive coal plants don't lie idle" (in fact of course it's gas plants that are switched on and off like this, coal is too slow). At least, that's my take on the current German policy.

.

OK - in fairness I was using the coal plant for exaggeration. I'm not a CC denier - but I do think some realism is warranted - is it appropriate for Ireland to spend a lot of money on relatively small reductions in CO2 when China is emitting so much CO2 - it's like a fart in the wind.

to be honest I'm not really that bothered about this issue - I was looking into it myself - however it gets my goat to see that people are so blinkered and can't grasp the bigger picture and simple concepts involved.

I think Quentin put it better elsewhere - the payback is better from a modest PV set up - as then you're guaranteed to use the electricity as a substitute yourself. Now - obviously it does increase the variance of your demand 0- but at least the ESB/etc can't stop you!

Coles

bluesteel wrote: »

Oh, I'm sorry. I touched on the issues that professionals running the electricity grid have to deal with - obviously the hobbyists who want money from the suppliers should be on a pedestal

You can't grasp the concept I'm talking about - that last spiel about conservation having the same effect as micro-generation was embarrassing. I was going to get into the variance of supply but guess correctly that statistics weren't your forte.

if you think that the effect of conservation is the same as random injections of power all I can say is please don't try to change a lightbulb any time soon.

You are trolling this thread. You have no knowledge and judging by your post history, you have no interest in this topic.

Perhaps you need to grasp this simple fact. The only primary coal powered plant in Ireland is Moneypoint. It consists of three generators each of 282MW. ALL the MicroGenerators in Ireland amount to 2MW. These MicroGenerators are composed of small wind turbines, small/micro hydroelectric turbines, Solar PV, a few trial CHP units, and a few miscellaneous generators.

Think about that fact, and then drag your trolling ass off....

I've had enough of your nonsense.

Autonomous

Will this have a knock on effect for wind turbine manufacturers in Ireland?

bluesteel

Coles wrote: »

You are trolling this thread. You have no knowledge and judging by your post history, you have no interest in this topic.


I've had enough of your nonsense.

trolling? Because I showed you up re a very basic misconception? No devil's advocate or contrary opinion allowed here so

Coles

Autonomous wrote: »

Will this have a knock on effect for wind turbine manufacturers in Ireland?

It'll destroy all these businesses. And not just industrial manufacturers, construction technology companies, general engineering companies, designers, also IT companies that are developing software for the Smart meter industries. The reprecusions are disastrous.

murphaph

bluesteel wrote: »

I think Quentin put it better elsewhere - the payback is better from a modest PV set up - as then you're guaranteed to use the electricity as a substitute yourself. Now - obviously it does increase the variance of your demand 0- but at least the ESB/etc can't stop you!

The thing is, the panels are about the cheapest part of the setup. They have become a commodity item. The inverter, dual meter, home automation to get the most out of your afternoon sunshine etc. is all required anyway, even for a 1kW setup.

I am gonna go the whole hog for this reason and I am taking a bit of a gamble that the batteries will come on enough in 5 years that I'll be able to slot a storage unit in and it'll be economical. In the meantime I will endeavour to store as much energy as possible in the form of hot water, before exporting the rest to the grid for 9c. I won't want to export anything to the grid for 9c as grid electricity is 30c here, but if I had no guaranteed FIT I wouldn't proceed with PV.

It should be noted that the sums are completely different if you work from home or work night shifts. If you work nightshifts, you could get yourself a Nissan leaf and charge it during the daytime from your PV array, using the energy later to get to your job. There's more than one way to skin a cat as they say.

DOCARCH

Mod Note: Coles & bluesteel...take it down a notch please. No more personal stuff and please be civil or infractions will follow.

ted1

quentingargan wrote: »

The viability of the system depends on how much electricity you use during the day. You can use a device like i-Boost to run your immersion on surplus PV power. In the past I argued against this approach because it is better to do this at night using off-peak power, but the new reality imposed by Electric Ireland makes this a better option.

Use storage heaters during the day, during the summer enjoy the hot tub out your back.

ted1

bluesteel wrote: »

the feed in tarrifs/subsidies in Germany are massive.

Past tense.

Coles

ted1 wrote: »

Use storage heaters during the day, during the summer enjoy the hot tub out your back.

Imagine energy as a hierarchical pyramid, with heat at the bottom, and electricity at the top. Heat is the most basic form of energy. It's cheap to create, it's inefficient to move, it's wasteful to store, and it has a limited number of uses. Electricity is at the top of this 'energy pyramid' because it is so refined and so useful and so valuable. To go to the trouble to produce electricity and then use it to create heat is just madness! I know it makes perfect sense in Ireland now, but this must change. It's completely insane.

Coles

Very good article about the Electric Ireland decision on the Friend of the Earth website.

There were a number of problems with the Electric Ireland scheme - it wasn't available for industry, it was never guaranteed and the price of 9c/kwh which was available is roughly only half the retail price meaning it was still economically challenging for householders to make it work. In the UK, rates for micro electricity generation are closer to 18p(23c)/kwh and there is also a payment for local generation of renewable heat. With no such payments available now in Ireland, it is likely that the micro generation industry will completely stall.

Link.

ted1

Coles wrote: »

Imagine energy as a hierarchical pyramid, with heat at the bottom, and electricity at the top. Heat is the most basic form of energy. It's cheap to create, it's inefficient to move, it's wasteful to store, and it has a limited number of uses. Electricity is at the top of this 'energy pyramid' because it is so refined and so useful and so valuable. To go to the trouble to produce electricity and then use it to create heat is just madness! I know it makes perfect sense in Ireland now, but this must change. It's completely insane.

I've a MSc in energy management, over 20 years experience in the Buisness. lol know what heat and energy are.

I also know that Energy is bought and sold in the SEM for far less than 9c/kwh. The grid has no requirement for micro generation so why buy it.
You need to size systems according to their requirements. I was suggesting ways off utilising the excess energy created from an over sized system. I thought you may also have picked up on the sarcasm about using a hot tub.

ted1

Coles wrote: »

It'll destroy all these businesses. And not just industrial manufacturers, construction technology companies, general engineering companies, designers, also IT companies that are developing software for the Smart meter industries. The reprecusions are disastrous.

Your stretching things their,it won't have much effect on companies developing smart meters. Most companies develop for the industry and the software is modified slightly. ( I've designed such meters myself ) micro generation doesn't really feature.

Coles

ted1 wrote: »

I've a MSc in energy management, over 20 years experience in the Buisness. lol know what heat and energy are.

I also know that Energy is bought and sold in the SEM for far less than 9c/kwh. The grid has no requirement for micro generation so why buy it.
You need to size systems according to their requirements. I was suggesting ways off utilising the excess energy created from an over sized system. I thought you may also have picked up on the sarcasm about using a hot tub.

And I thought you would understand that I was making a general point about the stupidity of ending MicroGeneration in Ireland.

Let's just leave it there.

bluesteel

murphaph wrote: »

It should be noted that the sums are completely different if you work from home or work night shifts. If you work nightshifts, you could get yourself a Nissan leaf and charge it during the daytime from your PV array, using the energy later to get to your job. There's more than one way to skin a cat as they say.

well, using the electric car battery to store energy for your home would be another way of going too; I think there are systems to do so in place - Tesla talking about it - obviously if you don't want to run the battery down too much

ted1

Coles wrote: »

And I thought you would understand that I was making a general point about the stupidity of ending MicroGeneration in Ireland.

Let's just leave it there.

Technology should be able to stand in its own two feet. If they really wanted much generation they should remove the ridiculous duty in imported Chinese PV. That would require no subsidy and would make it cheaper

Coles

ted1 wrote: »

Your stretching things their,it won't have much effect on companies developing smart meters. Most companies develop for the industry and the software is modified slightly. ( I've designed such meters myself ) micro generation doesn't really feature.

It features as a way for people to try out new ideas. By having a vibrant domestic industry it would create a wide range of spin off businesses, particularly in the area of power management.