Electric Ireland Stops Feed In Tariff for Microgenerators

galwaytt

recedite wrote: »

"The State" is the appropriate authority, and its time the state stepped in and required all the operators in the Irish market to act responsibly.

..simplistically, you would think so. But any time the 'State' has 'stepped in' to anything it has made a bollox of it.

SI9 would be our most relevant classic example.
Irish Water
PPARS
Electronic voting
etc etc

I mean, really, do we want, let alone can we afford, to have the 'State' step in to anything anymore - they're a disaster area.

quentingargan

galwaytt wrote: »

..

I mean, really, do we want, let alone can we afford, to have the 'State' step in to anything anymore - they're a disaster area.

The state runs the country. Hospitals, roads, policing etc. All have their problems, but nothing to the problems we would have if the state stepped out, which is what has just happened on renewable energy.

The state provides incentives for all manner of activity, including employment incentives, energy efficient homes etc. There is no reason why it shouldn't thump a few tables and demand that the CER introduce a microgeneration scheme for all electricity providers.

onepower

Quick question. If i connect my Pv system by the end of the year, will i get the 9c export payment for the next 5 years or just till the end of 2015 ?

quentingargan

onepower wrote: »

Quick question. If i connect my Pv system by the end of the year, will i get the 9c export payment for the next 5 years or just till the end of 2015 ?

That has always been ambiguous. Electric Ireland launched the scheme with two payments - 9c which was for a year and to be renewed annually, and 10c which was guaranteed for five years. So I have a total of 19c here -both components.

The 10c component was closed to new participants a few years back. The 9c is closed to new participants from 1st Jan. However, the 9c has so far been renewed for participants each year.

I would be very cheesed off if, having paid €340 for a smart meter, they stopped paying for my electricity after a year...

I think that the government is going to have to introduce a feed in tariff - the current status is bizarre. You are forbidden to set up community grids in Ireland, or to sell electricity to your neighbour, so if you want to generate renewable energy for use on the grid, you have to give your surplus away for free? I can't see that not changing, but a few heads need to be banged together to bring this about.

jathclare

I have installed a 6KW array and sent through my application a few months ago, before the announcement to end the scheme (which was a bit of a surprise).

I called Electric Ireland today to check if all in order, they said my application has been recieved, but will not be processed until the new year as there are insuffient import/export meters. They assured me the application was unaffected by the closure of the scheme by the 31st December as it was recieved before the deadline. This will be for the 9c tariff only.

touchdown77

jathclare wrote: »

I called Electric Ireland today to check if all in order, they said my application has been recieved, but will not be processed until the new year as there are insuffient import/export meters. T

ESB networks or Electric Ireland ?

freddyuk

Electric Ireland (the supplier) paid 9c and ESB (the distributor) paid a "top up" of 10c to the early adopters. ESB have withdrawn their contribution already.
We are on the early adopter deal so get 19c for 5 years (2017) and then nothing unless EI decide to extend their deal of 9c.
So if your application is accepted they will not start to run the credits until you have a meter to measure export so the nearer the summer it is the better!
6kw should cover your daily average loads easily.

wattmoodge

Solar is still viable in my experience. I installed a 4 kW system to my residence in the midlands and have saved a lot of money in the last 18 months. I think people need to realise solar is all about managing generated power. You will save there is no doubt. Why produce energy at 20c/ unit and sell at half that. Better to use all the generated energy by using devices to heat water or time clocks to switch on washing machines etc during the day if the house is unoccupied. If the house IS occupied then there is no problem. If you worried about producing too much energy then fit a smaller system. I am saving around 800 euros a year without really trying.

murphaph

I don't think there's any point in installing PV to heat water with an immersion. That is really wasteful and I'd only do it as a last resort if the goalposts were moved (as they are being). As part of a heat pump based heating system I definitely agree that PV can make a lot of sense and also obviously agree that with timers set up properly you can run a lot of your "chore" tasks that are not time critical during the afternoon when output is greatest. As you say, the sums are completely different in a house that is occupied during the day...in that case PV is almost a no-brainer to me at this stage, throw in an electric car to the mix and you'd be almost mad not to install PV to charge it (again, if you are working from home or working night shifts...doesn't work for someone who needs the car during the day most of the week).

With the scrapping of the FIT though it's really important not to over-spec the installation. That's a real shame actually...at least here in Germany we're still getting a guaranteed for 20 years 9c FIT, so you aren't too concerned about a slightly too large array as you won't be giving the excess away for free at least! I will be installing a larger than needed array next year (the panels are relatively cheap now, so when the installers are already on the roof it makes sense to me to go the whole hog and virtually cover the roof) and basically waiting for battery tech to improve and become cheaper (just as the panels have respectively done) and would hope to slot in a battery unit within 5 years time to increase the proportion of own-generated electricity used. I fully expect that German energy policy will continue to drive the price of electricity up to a point where a battery makes sense perhaps a few years before it will in Ireland.

freddyuk

As the PV technology is "cheap" right now it may be worth investing in the PV generator as you can easily adapt onsite management to use what you can and easily dump the rest into the grid. As PV got cheaper the EU stepped in to maintain prices to protect EU jobs (in vain) so the chances of the technology (of any quality) getting much cheaper is most unlikely under natural laws of economics. We have nil inflation right now so prices are static. If you are waiting for new technology then it is unlikely to be cheaper but that is the gamble. If you can buy cheap PV that lasts 40 years+ and you are over 30 I would grab it now. There is a stack of inverters floating around the market and the rest is low cost kit.
Energy prices are going one way.

murphaph

Agreed. It is a bit of a gamble on the battery tech getting better/cheaper but I believe PV will benefit massively from battery tech research in electric vehicles, which will hopefully see something developed that isn't reliant on rarer elements, thus driving price down. Might not happen, but there's a lot of big money being invested in such research as we speak, so there's a fair chance IMO.

ted1

wattmoodge wrote: »

I am saving around 800 euros a year without really trying.

How much was the system? What was you annual kwh usage and spend!

jathclare

jathclare wrote: »

I have installed a 6KW array and sent through my application a few months ago, before the announcement to end the scheme (which was a bit of a surprise).

I called Electric Ireland today to check if all in order, they said my application has been recieved, but will not be processed until the new year as there are insuffient import/export meters. They assured me the application was unaffected by the closure of the scheme by the 31st December as it was recieved before the deadline. This will be for the 9c tariff only.

To update you guys, recieved a letter asking for a further €340 to pay for the import/export meter as ESB no longer supply them for free.

quentingargan

jathclare wrote: »

To update you guys, recieved a letter asking for a further €340 to pay for the import/export meter as ESB no longer supply them for free.

In the UK, they can use any Offgem approved meter such as this for £29. With meters at €340, it becomes almost as cheap to buy a diversion device and use your surplus electricity to heat water rather than export it. :mad:

Gavin duck

jathclare wrote: »

To update you guys, recieved a letter asking for a further €340 to pay for the import/export meter as ESB no longer supply them for free.

Shocked at that their all out to rob u blind the cheaper u try to make life on ur self the more u get screwed

wattmoodge

ted1 wrote: »

How much was the system? What was you annual kwh usage and spend!

From my system I have generated 3800 units of electricity each year for the last Two years. Currently the inverter displays 6200 units reading from the start of June 2013. Over the 18 months that works out around the figure I have quoted.The system cost around 5500 euros to install. The way I look at it is if someone lodged that money in one of our fine banks the yearly return would be abysmally small. Money invested in a PV array is a much better option. After all it guaranteed and can't be taxed. I know a lot of people are disappointed the feed in tarrif being stopped (and I one of them) but a well installed PV array is still a great system to fit to virtually any residence or business. It will pay for itself in time and will reduce your carbon emissions. I would certainly miss my set up now.

recedite

wattmoodge wrote: »

From my system I have generated 3800 units of electricity each year for the last Two years..

If we assume that you use half of it as it is being generated, and export the other half, as in the UK assumption...

quentingargan wrote: »

In the UK, there is a daft scheme that pays for PRODUCTION. So you get paid for producing the power whether you use it or not. Then you get an extra 4p for exports, but often that isn't metered, and this is assumed to be 50/50 consumption/export.

Then you have 1900 kWhr @ 18c is €342 saved
plus an extra 1900 kWhr exported, so if you were getting 9c that would be another €171 gained.

quentingargan

recedite wrote: »

If we assume that you use half of it as it is being generated, and export the other half, as in the UK assumption...


Then you have 1900 kWhr @ 18c is €342 saved
plus an extra 1900 kWhr exported, so if you were getting 9c that would be another €171 gained.

If you can't get the 9c export tariff, you can always get a device to divert your surplus power to your immersion, displacing oil or gas, both of which would also cost you 9c according to SEAI.

Here's the interesting bit... According to T-sol, a 4m2 flatplate water heater with a 200L cylinder will produce about 1800 kw hrs of hot water. A 2kw Pv system will be cheaper, maintenance free, and would produce about the same amount of power, except that some of the power at least would be getting used as electricity. And no glycol, stagnation etc.

I've always been against these devices that divert electricity to heat water, but if CER won't mandate that this electricity be bought, then householders at least won't be at a financial loss. Just the grid that loses out.

recedite

quentingargan wrote: »

If you can't get the 9c export tariff, you can always get a device to divert your surplus power to your immersion, displacing oil or gas, both of which would also cost you 9c according to SEAI.

Yes, and night rate electricity would also be 9c, so we can say the power is always worth at least 9c for heating water, even if its not being used instantaneously for other electrical uses. So thats €513 in total per annum, about one tenth of installation costs. But as it should last at least 20 years, and with no moving parts and no maintenance, solar pv is still a good buy, even without the feed in tariff.
I'm just saying the €800 figure given initially for "savings" might have been a bit over optimistic.

wattmoodge

Personally I have fitted a Solar water heating cylinder and a device to divert excess electricity to the 3kw element. The unit at time of writing displays about 2000 units used by the water heater. As I have generated 6000 units from my PV array then around 4000 units have been used in the house. I take the point that water can be heated on the night tariff at half the cost but as it is being heated during the day via the diverter then the 20c tariff still applies. I have taken great care to make sure no energy is fed into the grid. That is tantamount to theft by the utility company as far as I am concerned if they won't allow you for it. After all I can't get free electricity from them without a criminal prosecution so why should they benefit from my investment? As my house is occupied for the vast majority of the week then I am confident all of the energy I generate is being used by my family. The lack of a feed in tarrif would affect someone whose house is unoccupied during the day. The main thing as far as I am concerned is I now have far lower electricity bills since my system was installed.

ted1

3800kwh per year* 15.81 cent=600 euro saving for the year. How much of that do you actually use?
What do you use the hot water for? Is it surplus to your needs?


So its a 9 year pay back at current rates.
Is there any maintenance? Did you pay cash or how is it financed?

wattmoodge

ted1 wrote: »

3800kwh per year* 15.81 cent=600 euro saving for the year. How much of that do you actually use?
What do you use the hot water for? Is it surplus to your needs?


So its a 9 year pay back at current rates.
Is there any maintenance? Did you pay cash or how is it financed?

HI
I actually pay closer to 19c/unit making 3800 units worth 722 euros a year. I like to think I use all of the energy I generate. I use all the hot water for showers ect. I do not have an electric shower in the house but rather a main pump feeding the house from the cylinder of hot water. During the winter very few units are generated so all of the units go to the house and very few if any to the water heater. The summer is a very different kettle of fish of course.80% of the yearly yield is generated from March to September. The winter is really a no go for solar. 20% for the remaining 5 months is not a great return but the whole system needs to be evaluated over the entire year.
As for maintenance that is minimal. I keep detailed records of my energy generated so would be able to see any depreciation in the system but really keeping the panels clean is most important. After that a yearly check regarding leakage to earth, insulation tests and short circuit tests are all that are needed. If the array is well installed in the first place it will last for a very long time. Some days I generate less than 1 unit in the winter whereas some days during June in particular I can yield 28 units during daylight. My wife tends to use the washing machine and diswasher more frequently in the Summer. Sometimes the washing machine can be used three times during the day with no units of electricity used.
I was paying nearly 2000 euros a year in electricity costs but now pay around 1200 euros a year. That's really where I arrived at the 800 euros figure. After all the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I borrowed a few quid from my local credit union to finance everything. The way I see it is , it will pay for itself in time. As I keep saying it all depends how you manage the energy generated with regards to how much you save.

freddyuk

wattmoodge wrote: »

HI
As I keep saying it all depends how you manage the energy generated with regards to how much you save.

Absolutely .... so do I!

ted1

wattmoodge wrote: »

HI
I actually pay closer to 19c/unit making 3800 units worth 722 euros a year. I like to think I use all of the energy I generate. I use all the hot water for showers ect. I do not have an electric shower in the house but rather a main pump feeding the house from the cylinder of hot water. During the winter very few units are generated so all of the units go to the house and very few if any to the water heater. The summer is a very different kettle of fish of course.80% of the yearly yield is generated from March to September. The winter is really a no go for solar.

The price I used is my current rate from energia ( incl. VAT) you need to look at the unite price not the AUP because the standing charge and the PSO will be charged regardless of consumption.

I would use very little electricity during the summer. Very little lights, no dryer, no boiler pump.
For hot water I use an electric shower so only heat exactly what is used. I had thought about getting PV but it sounds like it wouldn't work for me.

How much does the maintenance etc cleaning cost each year ?

What size house is it? I've a 3 bed and bills are about bills are about 140 , so only 720 a year. Are you using low energy lighting and a rated appliances?

galwaytt

ted1 wrote: »

The price I used is my current rate from energia ( incl. VAT) you need to look at the unite price not the AUP because the standing charge and the PSO will be charged regardless of consumption.

I would use very little electricity during the summer. Very little lights, no dryer, no boiler pump.
For hot water I use an electric shower so only heat exactly what is used. I had thought about getting PV but it sounds like it wouldn't work for me.

How much does the maintenance etc cleaning cost each year ?

What size house is it? I've a 3 bed and bills are about bills are about 140 , so only 720 a year. Are you using low energy lighting and a rated appliances?

Indeed - I got my electricity bill last week from Airtricity, and of the €279 on it, only €173 was for actual electricity - the rest disappeared in charges, fees, levies and VAT.

Of course, don't forget to add the value of VAT to your home-produced units too.

wattmoodge

ted1 wrote: »

The price I used is my current rate from energia ( incl. VAT) you need to look at the unite price not the AUP because the standing charge and the PSO will be charged regardless of consumption.

I would use very little electricity during the summer. Very little lights, no dryer, no boiler pump.
For hot water I use an electric shower so only heat exactly what is used. I had thought about getting PV but it sounds like it wouldn't work for me.

How much does the maintenance etc cleaning cost each year ?

What size house is it? I've a 3 bed and bills are about bills are about 140 , so only 720 a year. Are you using low energy lighting and a rated appliances?

My house is fairly big. My bills were too. Your bills are small already. Ironically you would really benefit from the feed in tarrif as you would export, I would suggest at least half your yield. It would be unforgivable in my view to feed anything back into the grid at the minute. I personally think the government want to wangle as much tax and duty as they possibly can from consumers. They not interested in people trying to save money. Robbery is legal when it carried out by the state.
I have already fitted low energy lighting and appliances to my residence. They made a difference but the PV made a huge dent in my bills. A lot of houses do use electricity during the day for fridges and freezers not to mention fish tanks ect. My house would use approximately 95 day time units a week during winter but only 25-30 a week because of the array during Summer. With my wife at home she uses the washing machine a lot in Summer.
The maintenance ect would be around 100 euros a year depending on location. Certainly a large system would be no use for you without a feed in tarrif. The best thing to do is to take a meter reading at the same time every week especially during Summer to determine what size array if any would suit.

MayoSalmon

Gavin duck wrote: »

Shocked at that their all out to rob u blind the cheaper u try to make life on ur self the more u get screwed

ESB could give 2 f*cks about your quest for sustainable living:P

jathclare

Make you laugh, the array has generated nearly a megawatt since installed in September.

However, as we only moved into the new house a couple of weeks ago, it turns out we have to pay the 66c per day low usage charge since we had no appliances in use since the connection.

So still have to pay €340 for the import/export meter, 46 days of the low usage charge, and get nothing for the all the free power I've sent to the grid. Spoke to the ESB about a fair compromise and computer says no.

recedite

Is that the deal then, you give them free electricity and in return they give you a "low usage" surcharge?
They are really taking the pi$$ now :mad:

JonathonS

This thread contains a lot of heat but not much light on EI’s decision …..:)

I am one of the majority of domestic electricity users for whom microgeneration is not an option. So my question is this. If EI and others pay 9c per kWhr for electricity generated by microgenerators, will this result in a reduction or an increase in total costs for these companies?

My guess is an increase. The cost of administering applications from hundreds or thousands of applicants, and ongoing admin thereafter would not be offset by the value of the electricity supplied at 9c per kWhr, and maybe not even at 0c per kWhr.

On the other hand, if anyone can prove that microgeneration will result in reduced costs for EI (which I perhaps foolishly assume will then result in lower costs for me…), then I will certainly join the campaign for the re-introduction of an FIT.