Gillian Relf (69) wishes she aborted her downs syndrome son (47)

indigo twist

RobertKK wrote: »

Well I am happy my mother was pro-life and so my life in her womb was never at risk due to her social views.

Well I'm fully pro-choice, and guess what, my son's life in my womb was never at risk due to my social views, either. Plenty of pro-choice people have never been in a position where they even had to consider abortion. It's about allowing others the freedom of choice.

Would I get an abortion if I found out I was pregnant with a child with severe disabilities? Honestly, I'm not sure - but I sure as hell wouldn't judge someone else for making that choice.

charlietheminxx

I've posted previously about my sister and what it's like to live with her but here I go again anyway.

People are not their disabilities. They do not always define character and potential. My sister is not a lot sentence or a burden or something to suffer, she's a person of her own who I love I pieces.

I am quite disgusted at the woman in the story to be honest. Not because she would have aborted her son had she known, that's her business and I am pro choice, but because she has utterly failed he child. People are here talking about the spectrum of severity across DS, and there is merit to that, but to be honest the most important thing is support, love, discipline, patience and education. Like most children . Her son was denied all those things during his formative years and was shipped from hospitals to care homes etc etc....the whole time his mother wishing him dead rather than encouraging him and teaching him and helping him develop skills. His incapacity to look after himself in the most basic sense is down to a combination of his disability and his needs being neglected.

Shiraz 4.99

Egginacup wrote: »

Has DS been eradicated in Sweden?
How did they do it?

From memory they brought in early stage testing for a number of conditions.
The parents ultimately made the decision but the UK's 90% was greatly exceeded.

Shiraz 4.99

Egginacup wrote: »

Has DS been eradicated in Sweden?
How did they do it?

From memory they brought in early stage testing for a number of conditions.
The parents ultimately made the decision but the UK's 90% was greatly exceeded.

FactCheck

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

From memory they brought in early stage testing for a number of conditions.
The parents ultimately made the decision but the UK's 90% was greatly exceeded.

That's utter rubbish.

Some 22 percent of mothers who found out their child had a chromosomal abnormality chose to terminate the pregnancy.

...

About one of almost 800 children born in Sweden every year has Down's Syndrome, bringing last year's total to 135 newborns.

The figures for Ireland are 1 in just under 600 FYI.

eviltwin

charlietheminxx wrote: »

I've posted previously about my sister and what it's like to live with her but here I go again anyway.

People are not their disabilities. They do not always define character and potential. My sister is not a lot sentence or a burden or something to suffer, she's a person of her own who I love I pieces.

I am quite disgusted at the woman in the story to be honest. Not because she would have aborted her son had she known, that's her business and I am pro choice, but because she has utterly failed he child. People are here talking about the spectrum of severity across DS, and there is merit to that, but to be honest the most important thing is support, love, discipline, patience and education. Like most children . Her son was denied all those things during his formative years and was shipped from hospitals to care homes etc etc....the whole time his mother wishing him dead rather than encouraging him and teaching him and helping him develop skills. His incapacity to look after himself in the most basic sense is down to a combination of his disability and his needs being neglected.

You can't judge this woman by your own experience. And with all due respect you're talking about your sister. It must be so much easier when its a sibling, you get to grow up and live your life, the parent doesn't. I wonder what help was out there for a Down's parent 47 years ago. I'd imagine it was hard to come by. Wasn't it the norm for Down's children to be put into homes?

up for anything

Shiraz 4.99 wrote: »

The only thing she needs to feel guilty about is not having the test done.

There were no antenatal scans or blood test to detect abnormalities in those days and although I had a sixth sense, call it mother's intuition, that there was something wrong with my baby, the doctors and midwives insisted I was being hysterical and refused to perform an amniocentesis (where cells are taken from the amniotic fluid and tested). A healthy 22-year-old, with a thriving baby, I was considered very low risk to have a Down's baby.

Read the article properly before commenting.

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

Is every pregnant woman tested for these things nowadays also?

Not in Ireland at any rate. I had my first two children in the UK and had the Nuchal scan for DS at 11 weeks. When I came home to Ireland and requested one on my next pregnancy, the doctor said that they don't do them here. When I asked why she said there was no point as they wouldn't be able to offer an abortion if the scan showed that the foetus had DS.

charlietheminxx

eviltwin wrote: »

You can't judge this woman by your own experience. And with all due respect you're talking about your sister. It must be so much easier when its a sibling, you get to grow up and live your life, the parent doesn't. I wonder what help was out there for a Down's parent 47 years ago. I'd imagine it was hard to come by. Wasn't it the norm for Down's children to be put into homes?

I am aware the severity differs on a person to person basis. Of course my experience differs to that of a parent, but I have seen my sister surpass everyone's expectations and become immensely self sufficient. My mother is a midwife who works shifts and my stepdad has to travel for work non-stop, my sister having a disability hasn't stopped them from living their lives. If she had lived the life the man in the article had, I guarantee you that would not be the case.

I know my mother probably would have chosen a termination had she known while pregnant, I also accept that having a disabled child is not an easy thing to come to terms with. It does not mean it's ok to think about throwing your toddler down the stairs or saying you should have let them die when they were hospitalised because your life would have been easier. We are all dealt different hands in life, it is not perfect, but this is just a "poor me" story from a woman who couldn't get over the fact her son has a disability.... She let her child down.

Also some people earlier in the thread were discussing her choice not to have another child; if you have a baby with DS your chances of subsequent children also having DS is increased.

PopePalpatine

Squeedily Spooch wrote: »

And if your dad got a blowjob instead of a ride you wouldn't exist either. Are we playing the silly pro-life logic game now?

Let's go further - imagine how much better off this world would have been had Alois Hitler and/or Besarion Joghashvili pulled out?

Deenie123

eviltwin wrote: »

I wonder what help was out there for a Down's parent 47 years ago. I'd imagine it was hard to come by. Wasn't it the norm for Down's children to be put into homes?

The woman in the article wasn't even told her child had Down's Syndrome until she overheard him being referred to as a "Mongol baby". So I'd imagine not one iota of support was offered beyond sending him to a home.

Wabbit Ears

Ive a cousin with downs and she has been like a shackle around her parents ankles for 40 years. Id not wish that life on my worst enemy.

Shakespeare's Sister

It's tough also on this woman that she was only 22 when she gave birth to her disabled son. DS is associated mostly with "geriatric" pregnancies ("geriatric" in pregnancy terms is mid 30s).

eviltwin wrote: »

You can't judge this woman by your own experience. And with all due respect you're talking about your sister. It must be so much easier when its a sibling, you get to grow up and live your life, the parent doesn't. I wonder what help was out there for a Down's parent 47 years ago. I'd imagine it was hard to come by. Wasn't it the norm for Down's children to be put into homes?

I know a family whose DS member was born in south Dublin in 1973 and the doctors spoke to her mother (also young at the time - 25ish) as if it was a given that she'd be going home and leaving her baby at the hospital, to be placed in an institution.

Shiraz 4.99

FactCheck wrote: »

That's utter rubbish.

I said Scandinavia from memory, someone else inserted Sweden.
Turns out it was Denmark I'd read about, still stands.

http://str.typepad.com/weblog/2011/08/denmark-sets-eugenics-goal-for-2030.html

Shiraz 4.99

Originally Posted by Shiraz 4.99

The only thing she needs to feel guilty about is not having the test done.

There were no antenatal scans or blood test to detect abnormalities in those days and although I had a sixth sense, call it mother's intuition, that there was something wrong with my baby, the doctors and midwives insisted I was being hysterical and refused to perform an amniocentesis (where cells are taken from the amniotic fluid and tested). A healthy 22-year-old, with a thriving baby, I was considered very low risk to have a Down's baby.

up for anything wrote: »

Read the article properly before commenting.

I read the article perfectly, perhaps it was you who misinterpreted the words.

Smidge

I think everyone who thinks this woman is coming from a "pity me" pov should have to walk a mile in her shoes.
I have known people with children who have disabilities that have triumphed over adversity and make your soul sing to be in their company. They are the joy in their parents lives even with the tough times they struggled through.

But I have also known parents of children with disabilities who in a private moment will confess that if they had the chance again they would have made a different decision. And having been around in their everyday life, I don't disagree with them.
It's not just the loss of their own lives (one whose son is in his 20's and is severely mentally and physically disabled has been on a night out a handful of times over the years). When " normal" children are born as parents you put your time in. But that doesn't last for your ENTIRE life. For my friend, this is exactly what it is.
She loves him with all of her heart. Of this I have no doubt. If she didn't, she couldn't do what she does for him.
But now that she is in her 40's and only has old age approaching (and the very thought of how she will cope keeps her up many a night)she has every right imo to lament what her life may have been.

Frito

charlietheminxx wrote: »

she has utterly failed he child.

That's really unfair.
Like you, I also have a disabled sister. It is very easy for us, now, to speculate on what Mrs Relf should have done then.