Gillian Relf (69) wishes she aborted her downs syndrome son (47)

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

Why does she have guilt?

Is her son trying to kill himself wishing he wasn't born?

Stephen may not have the mental capacity to do so.

She may feel guilty about wishing that she had terminated the pregnancy, guilty that her other son will be responsible for Stephen after she dies, guilty that her older son may have lost out when he was a child because so much of her time was taken up caring for Stephen, guilty that it's somehow her fault that he has DS.

No-one has any right to judge her for the way she feels. The whole family deserves our sympathy and support.

RobertKK

cletus van damme wrote: »

That docu (which I haven't seen ) may make that point but that's EB and this is Downs. they are not comparible.
Did she say it was because of the pain he was in or because life was tough? there is a big difference.



Get the fcuk. To say that about Downs is so wide of the mark that i don't know how to answer that.

To the others that quoted me and disagreed - so be it we disagree.


Shakepeares Sister - I may be Pro life (thanks for quoting me) but this isn't actually an abortion discussion per se. It about her attitude 47 years year to a living breathing child.

That is true, my relation with DS didn't have pain or confusion, moody but liked a good laugh.

Shakespeare's Sister

cletus van damme wrote: »

To say that about Downs is so wide of the mark that i don't know how to answer that.

There's a spectrum of severity when it comes to DS though. I know a couple who have a little boy with DS and he brings them huge joy and they do consider him a blessing. I hate when people dismiss those experiences - some people love to say nobody is happy with a disabled child and any who say it's a blessing are lying etc. But in this case, she doesn't view her situation that way and she can't help how she feels.

To the others that quoted me and disagreed - so be it we disagree.
I've 4 kids and I've accepted them as they are and will be.

Nobody's disputing that, but you're not everyone.

Shakepeares Sister - I may be Pro life (thanks for quoting me) but this isn't actually an abortion discussion per se. It about her attitude 47 years year to a living breathing child.

I was referring to RobertKK's posts - I didn't know whether you were pro-life or not, and I don't have a problem with people who are pro-life (I'm not so pro-choice that I think an abortion is ok in every single situation, only certain ones) just not hardline about it.

RobertKK

kylith wrote: »

Stephen may not have the mental capacity to do so.

She may feel guilty about wishing that she had terminated the pregnancy, guilty that her other son will be responsible for Stephen after she dies, guilty that her older son may have lost out when he was a child because so much of her time was taken up caring for Stephen, guilty that it's somehow her fault that he has DS.

No-one has any right to judge her for the way she feels. The whole family deserves our sympathy and support.

You say no one has the right to judge, yet some people here are judging people with DS and thinking them as being inferior human beings as if the people viewing them this way are perfect themselves.

Oregano_State

RobertKK wrote: »

It didn't stop her having another child, that is just an excuse. I grew up with a person who had DS, we as the person's family looked after her when her mother died, her father had died many decades earlier.
Woe to my family and the responsibility, oh how terrible this is, where is this attitude getting that man's mother?

You're really grasping at straws here.

Physically, yes I'm sure she was capable of having another child. Her point, which is more obvious than a reporters phone going off in a Roy Keane press conference, is that the time and energy she had to invest in taking care of her DS son meant that she would not be able to put that towards taking care of another baby.

She also indicated that she had only every wanted to have two children.

Also, Down's Syndrome people can be functional to varying degrees, some grow up to be quite independent but in this case it appears that Stephen is very low functioning and so this woman's experience could be quite different to your own.

WILL NEVER LOG OFF

That's an absolutely heartbreaking story. i wonder how prevalent her feelings are amongst mothers of people with DS.

I was in a local cafe here last friday and beside me, was a woman in her 60s, with a man with DS whom I assume was her son. It's difficult to judge their ages but he perhaps he was around 40. And she was helping him eat his lunch, but the look on her face was what got me. She was smiling so kindly at him, and you could tell she was completely devoted. But who knows the anguish DS has caused her? Maybe if she could turn back time , she'd not go through with the pregnancy .

It's not our place to judge those complex emotions . The lady in the DM article was very brave in telling her story. I wouldn't for a moment doubt her love and devotion for her son.

kylith

cletus van damme wrote: »

That docu (which I haven't seen ) may make that point but that's EB and this is Downs. they are not comparible.
Did she say it was because of the pain he was in or because life was tough? there is a big difference.

I mentioned the documentary in answer to a question about how could you say you loved your child, but also wish that you had terminated the pregnancy. IIRC it was because of the pain he was in, the difficulty she had in raising him, and the fact that he could never have a normal life even though he was not mentally disabled.

cletus van damme wrote: »

Get the fcuk. To say that about Downs is so wide of the mark that i don't know how to answer that.

How is it wide of the mark? She has said that he had a blood disorder that caused him paid and would have killed him. DS often comes with other medical issues such as heart defects, increased susceptibility to infection, respiratory problems, gastrointestinal disorders, and childhood leukemia. She said that Stephen struggles to communicate and would become distressed and refuse to go out with her, and that she is afraid that he won't understand why she and his father will one day no longer visit him.

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

You say no one has the right to judge, yet some people here are judging people with DS and thinking them as being inferior human beings as if the people viewing them this way are perfect themselves.

I haven't seen anyone say that they think people with DS are inferior, just that they can empathise with this woman and understand why she would have terminated had she had the option.

cerastes

cletus van damme wrote: »

I've sympathy for her struggle but I find her attitude troubling.

She cannot claim to love him but wish she had an abortion - every single day she has this thought. She seems hung up on what she has lost rather than seeing any positive of it.

Its been answered, surprised someone thinks its not possible to have contradictory feelings about something

branie2 wrote: »

No mother would ever wish that.

Did you miss the first post? there is at least one that is, and there are and will be many more, its more lacking to suggest this isn't more normal, Id say its probably even a widespread opinion.

bodice ripper

RobertKK wrote: »

You say no one has the right to judge, yet some people here are judging people with DS and thinking them as being inferior human beings as if the people viewing them this way are perfect themselves.

there is a difference between putting down a human being, and intervening before the human being happens.


I would have an abortion in a heart beat if I found out early on that I was pregnant with a seriously unwell fetus.

Grayson

RobertKK wrote: »

It didn't stop her having another child, that is just an excuse. I grew up with a person who had DS, we as the person's family looked after her when her mother died, her father had died many decades earlier.
Woe to my family and the responsibility, oh how terrible this is, where is this attitude getting that man's mother?

I'm trying to figure out if you think she had another kid afterwards or if you're trying to say that she could have had another?

If it's the first that's not right. Andrew is his OLDER brother.
If it's the second, then you're also wrong. As she said, he took up an awful lot of her time and energy. It's not like she would have been able to adequately care for a baby when she had a kid with bad DS.

cletus van damme wrote: »

Get the fcuk. To say that about Downs is so wide of the mark that i don't know how to answer that.

Did you even read the article. Could you not tell that the guy is severely disabled. He barely communicates and is still incontinent. He'll sit in the middle of a bus and refuse to move.
There's a huge spectrum of DS. Saying that poster doesn't know what he's talking about because you happen to know someone who's at the higher functioning range. It's like telling someone they're a liar when they say it's sunny in japan just because it's raining outside your house in Ireland.

indigo twist

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

Is every pregnant woman tested for these things nowadays also?

It's not routinely tested for in Ireland. The option may be available for certain women at higher risk, e.g. family history or older women.

Sometimes certain physical features observed during a scan may indicate the possibility of DS, however scans are not routine in some Irish hospitals (I.e. many women give birth without ever having received a scan.)

Of course, even if anamolies are found as part of a scan or any other tests - women have to travel abroad should they decide not to continue with the pregnancy.

Ave Sodalis

RobertKK wrote: »

You say no one has the right to judge, yet some people here are judging people with DS and thinking them as being inferior human beings as if the people viewing them this way are perfect themselves.

Nobody is thinking that.

RobertKK

kylith wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone say that they think people with DS are inferior, just that they can empathise with this woman and understand why she would have terminated had she had the option.

Then why in the UK is the abortion rate for women pregnant with an unborn child with DS at 90%?

WILL NEVER LOG OFF

indigo twist wrote: »

scans are not routine in some Irish hospitals (I.e. many women give birth without ever having received a scan.)

pregnancy without a scan? that is pretty much unheard of. i hope.

PopePalpatine

bodice ripper wrote: »

there is a difference between putting down a human being, and intervening before the human being happens.


I would have an abortion in a heart beat if I found out early on that I was pregnant with a seriously unwell fetus.

Don't you know you're meant to stick it out for the whole 9 months, and then spend the few hours of that baby's life listening to its pained whimpers? It's what Jebus wants!

Ave Sodalis

RobertKK wrote: »

Then why in the UK is the abortion rate for women pregnant with an unborn child with DS at 90%?

It doesn't mean they think they are inferior. If they truely believe that people with DS are inferior, what's to stop them getting rid of the child after it's born? Your logic here is not adding up. Abortion=/= inferior child.

mackg

RobertKK wrote: »

Then why in the UK is the abortion rate for women pregnant with an unborn child with DS at 90%?

Because people don't want to run the risk of having a severely disabled child? Tbh I don't know because I'm not all those people.

bodice ripper

RobertKK wrote: »

Then why in the UK is the abortion rate for women pregnant with an unborn child with DS at 90%?

Because these women don't have to ask you.

bodice ripper

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Don't you know you're meant to stick it out for the whole 9 months, and then spend the few hours of that baby's life listening to its pained whimpers? It's what Jebus wants!

well, Jebus can show up and give me some good reasons why we live in a Vale of Tears.

galah

WILL NEVER LOG OFF wrote: »

pregnancy without a scan? that is pretty much unheard of. i hope.

Not quite. In some hospitals (UHG for example) you'll get one scan, usually around the 20 -22 week mark, and that's it. If there are severe anomalies, it's usually too late to do anything about it.

Why they dont routinely offer a scan around the 12 week mark is beyond me, it would make certain decisions a lot easier. I dont want to sound cruel, but having an abortion at 12 weeks would, in my opinion, be a lot 'easier' (for lack of a better word, no abortion is easy i dont think) than one at 24 weeks.

bodice ripper

galah wrote: »

Not quite. In some hospitals (UHG for example) you'll get one scan, usually around the 20 -22 week mark, and that's it. If there are severe anomalies, it's usually too late to do anything about it.

thats why

I know someone whose brother is around 40 and their mother died a couple of weeks ago. As much as they all love him he's now an even bigger burden on them than before, they have to change their lives completely and tune into all of his habits and routines. I'm not going to judge them for any "negative" thoughts they might end up having.

It's better than the delusion a lot of people claim to buy into about something being a test sent from god and all that ****.

WILL NEVER LOG OFF

galah wrote: »

Not quite. In some hospitals (UHG for example) you'll get one scan, usually around the 20 -22 week mark, and that's it. If there are severe anomalies, it's usually too late to do anything about it.

but that's not a policy, is it? i think that's a waiting list issue?

most of my friends who've had babies have been scanned a few times privately. I reckon going through the public system would be less than ideal alright. One 22-week scan is simply inadequate.

eviltwin

WILL NEVER LOG OFF wrote: »

but that's not a policy, is it? i think that's a waiting list issue?

most of my friends who've had babies have been scanned a few times privately. I reckon going through the public system would be less than ideal alright. One 22-week scan is simply inadequate.

It is in some hospitals. If you have a normal pregnancy in a lot of hospitals you'll have a scan at 12-14 weeks to see what your due date should be and that's it. I was lucky to have a 20 week scan as well but I only got that because I was considered high risk. My 20 week scan also took place at 25 weeks due to cut backs.

eviltwin

It would be interesting to see how many of the people judging this woman have experience with special needs or indeed have children of their own. There is this fallacy that every parent loves their children unconditionally and never regret their births. Some do, most do but some don't but the stigma is huge so of course only a few ever say it. You're kids can be horrible people, they can be hard work, they can be challenging. Parents aren't saints, they have a limit just like everyone else. The real shame in this story is the lack of supports for families like hers, respite care would really have helped over the years, proper educational facilities, counselling etc could have made her life a lot easier.

Grand Moff Tarkin

Some heartless f*****s out there all the same.

BrokenHero

Read it earlier. Don't get it.

Have someone with autism in my own family and the thought that it would have been being for them, and us, had they not being born, is incomprehensible.

Shiraz 4.99

eviltwin wrote: »

It is in some hospitals. If you have a normal pregnancy in a lot of hospitals you'll have a scan at 12-14 weeks to see what your due date should be and that's it. I was lucky to have a 20 week scan as well but I only got that because I was considered high risk. My 20 week scan also took place at 25 weeks due to cut backs.

The 12-14 week scan got pushed back to week 16 with our first & week 18 with the other.
We'd already had the conversation & had both agreed on abortion if any serious abnormalities shown up.
We were forced to have the conversation early as a snap decision would have been needed, thankfully it all went OK.

DoYouEvenLift

indigo twist wrote: »

It's not routinely tested for in Ireland. The option may be available for certain women at higher risk, e.g. family history or older women.

Sometimes certain physical features observed during a scan may indicate the possibility of DS, however scans are not routine in some Irish hospitals (I.e. many women give birth without ever having received a scan.)

Of course, even if anamolies are found as part of a scan or any other tests - women have to travel abroad should they decide not to continue with the pregnancy.

Could you still request and pay to have all tests possible to check if the baby is entirely healthy done? If I was going to have children I'd like to be as confident as possible that the baby is totally healthy.

It's sad that women would have to travel elsewhere for abortion too.