Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

cgcsb

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

Thread bump. The NTA website indicates they wanted to go for planning in late 2014. It's now mid 2015 and nada. It seems the government's abition was to have at least 1 BRT route operational around the same time as BXD, that now looks impossible. Does anyone have any hear-say regarding what's happened to swiftway? Could it be dead, on the Swords corridor at least?

thomasj

cgcsb wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

Thread bump. The NTA website indicates they wanted to go for planning in late 2014. It's now mid 2015 and nada. It seems the government's abition was to have at least 1 BRT route operational around the same time as BXD, that now looks impossible. Does anyone have any hear-say regarding what's happened to swiftway? Could it be dead, on the Swords corridor at least?

Its hard to say what's going on, but based on the publication of the document on plans for the city centre only released only a couple of days ago, is still very much alive and kicking for all 3 routes.

mickmmc

The editor of the North County Leader, based in Swords, had a front page opinion piece stating that BRT was not acceptable to the people of North County Dublin. Politicians are obsessed with the media and I wonder has the North County Leader killed off the BRT route from Swords.


In my opinion BRT for Swords is a waste of money. The money saved on BRT could be put towards Metro North, which should be postponed for a number of years.

Swords has a good bus service at the moment - routes 41, 41C, 43 and 33 all pass through Swords Main Street to the City Centre. Also, Swords Express and 41x serve Swords.

The problem with the 41 is the time that going into Dublin Airport can add to the journey. Inbound it can add 10-15mins with all the bags and tourists messing with leap cards and change. However, for Dublin Bus it is a busy stop inbound and is a cheap service to the City Centre for backpackers and quicker than the 16, which goes to the City Centre via Beaumont.

More direct DB services from Swords would be ideal, which avoid the Airport.

ballooba

It's still in design/planning, but won't start construction until after completion of BXD.

cgcsb

ballooba wrote: »

It's still in design/planning, but won't start construction until after completion of BXD.

Where's this coming from? There isn't really any conflict from a construction point of view between the two routes, at least none that can't easily be worked around.

stehyl15

Yes they should a metro but a proper metro like the ones in other major european cities but the proposed one just looks like a glorified luas to me

thomasj

stehyl15 wrote: »

Yes they should a metro but a proper metro like the ones in other major european cities but the proposed one just looks like a glorified luas to me

Given we have been waiting over 20 years for a metro, I'll take anything at this stage!

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

Thread bump. The NTA website indicates they wanted to go for planning in late 2014. It's now mid 2015 and nada. It seems the government's abition was to have at least 1 BRT route operational around the same time as BXD, that now looks impossible. Does anyone have any hear-say regarding what's happened to swiftway? Could it be dead, on the Swords corridor at least?

I'm not sure where you are getting that an application for planning would take place in 2014?

The first public consultation was in February-March 2014, which was very much an overview of the scheme.

The report analysing the responses was issued in July 2014.

In November-December 2014 the second public consultation took place, which outlined the detailed plans for the first time, and which incorporated changes to the route arising from the initial consultation.

The report analysing the responses to this second consultation was issued in April 2015. It can be viewed here:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Swords-Airport_to_City_Centre_Proposed_Scheme__Public_Consultation_Report_April_2015.pdf

It stated that the next steps would be to produce a final preliminary scheme (taking into account feedback where practical), which will include a full Environmental Impact Statement, and then to apply for planning approval during 2015, which will also include a statutory consultation process.

So, to answer your question, I would imagine that is precisely what they are doing - preparing the EIS. An EIS will take several months to prepare - it's not something that will happen overnight.

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not sure where you are getting that an application for planning would take place in 2014?

"development consent will be made to An Bord Pleanala later in 2014"

see link https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

"development consent will be made to An Bord Pleanala later in 2014"

see link https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

Clearly that page hasn't been updated.


The work is ongoing as I outlined above - the next stage will be the final preliminary scheme leading to the planning application.

mickmmc

The reality is: at the end of the day it is a political decision to grant funding to NTA for Swords BRT.

I read last year that, with regard to implementing Network Direct for Swords, the Managing Director of Dublin Bus said bus services for Swords were complex due to the various bus routes operating in the area. DB understand the difficulties in trying to make any changes.
Do the NTA?

Operating a BRT service on Swords bypass is not going to meets for public transport in Swords Main Street. Are people going to carry bags etc from Pavilions shopping centre to the bypass when existing bus services stop outside the door? Even Swords Express operates via Malahide Road to access Pavilions.

The BRT is next to useless for anyone living in Rivervalley, which is served by the 41C.

The BRT stop for the Airport is outside ALSAA. That is at least a 5-8 min walk to Terminal 2 and longer for terminal 1. Realistically, a shuttle service will be required from ALSAA to the Airport, which is a joke.

There is a new town planned between Swords and Rolestown (41B route). Again, the BRT is next to useless for passengers for that area.

BRT is of little benefit to people living in Hollywell, Kinsealy and Drynam.

In my opinion a BRT for Swords is a white elephant.

LXFlyer

mickmmc wrote: »

The reality is: at the end of the day it is a political decision to grant funding to NTA for Swords BRT.

I read last year that, with regard to implementing Network Direct for Swords, the Managing Director of Dublin Bus said bus services for Swords were complex due to the various bus routes operating in the area. DB understand the difficulties in trying to make any changes.
Do the NTA?

Operating a BRT service on Swords bypass is not going to meets for public transport in Swords Main Street. Are people going to carry bags etc from Pavilions shopping centre to the bypass when existing bus services stop outside the door? Even Swords Express operates via Malahide Road to access Pavilions.

The BRT is next to useless for anyone living in Rivervalley, which is served by the 41C.

The BRT stop for the Airport is outside ALSAA. That is at least a 5-8 min walk to Terminal 2 and longer for terminal 1. Realistically, a shuttle service will be required from ALSAA to the Airport, which is a joke.

There is a new town planned between Swords and Rolestown (41B route). Again, the BRT is next to useless for passengers for that area.

BRT is of little benefit to people living in Hollywell, Kinsealy and Drynam.

In my opinion a BRT for Swords is a white elephant.

Firstly people using Bus Eireann route 101 manage to walk to/from Swords bypass easily enough, so I don't think that is a huge issue. This is about providing rapid transit - that won't happen if you send it along Swords Main Street. Realistically there will still be normal buses operating along Swords Main Street albeit at a lower frequency.

Secondly there is planned to be a separate BRT route to the airport and by that I mean the airport campus - I don't know why you think it will terminate at ALSAA.

The major failing I see with this plan is the lack of Park & Ride facilities to facilitate other parts of Swords. We also don't know whether feeder buses will be part of the plan.

The difficulties with implementing changes to the subsidised bus networks linking Swords with the city lie primarily with the fact that there is a significant private operator serving the town.

But again, people need to realise that this is not just about serving Swords. It's about serving the entire Swords Road QBC and all the areas along that road.

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

Firstly people using Bus Eireann route 101 manage to walk to/from Swords bypass easily enough

Or because they have to. I don't think the 101 takes people from Swords south though.

lxflyer wrote: »

The major failing I see with this plan is the lack of Park & Ride facilities to facilitate other parts of Swords. We also don't know whether feeder buses will be part of the plan.

These are serious failings. It should be reasonably simple to balance a route from Drynam to Rivervalley with an interchange at Airside/Boroimhe - i.e. have a route the same time either side of the r132. The frequency of the feeder would need to be high to have short dwell times for interchange

lxflyer wrote: »

The difficulties with implementing changes to the subsidised bus networks linking Swords with the city lie primarily with the fact that there is a significant private operator serving the town.

The way the private service is non accessible probably further reduces any pso related compromises for a swords express transport to the city centre.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

Or because they have to. I don't think the 101 takes people from Swords south though.

I didn't say it did take people from Swords south. Really this part of your post is really pedantic and misses the point entirely. What does it matter what direction people are travelling?

A reasonable number of people use the 101 to get to Swords from north of Swords. The point I was making was that those people manage to cope with walking to/from the by-pass where the 101 stops.

The walk from the Pavillions to the by-pass is 4 minutes - suggesting that people won't be able to do that (which is what the previous poster was doing) when they manage to do it all over Dublin is just ridiculous.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

I didn't say it did take people from Swords south. Really this part of your post is really pedantic and misses the point entirely. What does it matter what direction people are travelling?

A reasonable number of people use the 101 to get to Swords from north of Swords. The point I was making was that those people manage to cope with walking to/from the by-pass where the 101 stops.

The walk from the Pavillions to the by-pass is 4 minutes - suggesting that people won't be able to do that (which is what the previous poster was doing) when they manage to do it all over Dublin is just ridiculous.

they do it because they have to. doesn't mean they manage or are okay with it, rather then they may have no other option if they want to use public transport. if i knew i had to walk for a good bit off a bus to get to the airport i wouldn't bother with it.

syklops

The point I was making was that those people manage to cope with walking to/from the by-pass where the 101 stops.

This sums up the Irish attitude to public transport perfectly. "Sure, they can just walk the extra distance".

It amazed me getting the BART in San Francisco last week from the Airport. You come out of baggage claim go down one flight of steps and the Bart Station is right there inside the same building. You just go through the barrier and get into the car. There was no 4-5 minute walk to get the next transport link

LXFlyer

syklops wrote: »

This sums up the Irish attitude to public transport perfectly. "Sure, they can just walk the extra distance".

It amazed me getting the BART in San Francisco last week from the Airport. You come out of baggage claim go down one flight of steps and the Bart Station is right there inside the same building. You just go through the barrier and get into the car. There was no 4-5 minute walk to get the next transport link

So do you think BRT could in any way shape or form be "rapid" if it went through Swords Main Street?

As I said above in all likelihood a regular bus (albeit at a lower frequency) will still serve the Main Street.

This project is about providing a rapid form of public transport along the entire corridor - people need to get that into their heads.

Aard

BRT could be "rapid" through Swords Main St if modelled on Dutch BRT e.g. In Haarlem. Cars would have to be largely removed which apparently is not politically expedient.

LXFlyer

Aard wrote: »

BRT could be "rapid" through Swords Main St if modelled on Dutch BRT e.g. In Haarlem. Cars would have to be largely removed which apparently is not politically expedient.

The by-pass has sufficient space to facilitate the services while causing minimum disruption to everyone else.


Routing it through the middle of Swords village would cause massive disruption and frankly is unnecessary.


I really don't see what the issue that some posters seem to have about this, bearing in mind that there would still be a bus service through the village..

cgcsb

end of the road wrote: »

they do it because they have to. doesn't mean they manage or are okay with it, rather then they may have no other option if they want to use public transport. if i knew i had to walk for a good bit off a bus to get to the airport i wouldn't bother with it.

It's a very short walk. In Dublin airport you'll typically have a 20 minute walk to your point of departure anyway.

LXFlyer

Just to clarify - I am talking about the fact that BRT will operate along Swords by-pass, which is a short walk from the main street.


I don't know why Dublin Airport is being brought into this - it will have it's own BRT route which will serve the airport itself.

cgcsb

If we had metro in Swords as planned, it'd be very practical to have feeder buses connecting it to most of North Dublin. However the notion of having feeder buses connecting to a slightly improved(at great cost) Xpresso service that will be operating above capacity the day it opens is nonsensical.

Can you imagine people getting 'feeder buses' to a bus stop with several buses going past them full?

BRT is great but it's certainly not an alternative to high capacity rail, of which there is unfortunately very little in Dublin.

Aard

lxflyer wrote: »

The by-pass has sufficient space to facilitate the services while causing minimum disruption to everyone else.


Routing it through the middle of Swords village would cause massive disruption and frankly is unnecessary.


I really don't see what the issue that some posters seem to have about this, bearing in mind that there would still be a bus service through the village..

I myself don't prefer or disprefer BRT through Main St versus the bypass. Just saying that it is possible to route it down Main St, and certainly not unprecedented with BRT/BHLS internationally.

schemingbohemia

syklops wrote: »

This sums up the Irish attitude to public transport perfectly. "Sure, they can just walk the extra distance".

It amazed me getting the BART in San Francisco last week from the Airport. You come out of baggage claim go down one flight of steps and the Bart Station is right there inside the same building. You just go through the barrier and get into the car. There was no 4-5 minute walk to get the next transport link

This ties in with the idiotic comment the other day for a spur to Tara Street from Luas CrossCity. There is nothing wrong with a 4 - 5 minute walk! This type of attitude is actually what's wrong here, lambasting every proposed development because it means someone may have to walk a few minutes.

AngryLips

schemingbohemia wrote: »

This ties in with the idiotic comment the other day for a spur to Tara Street from Luas CrossCity.

You realise I meant that as a joke right?

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

You realise I meant that as a joke right?

I'd have to say it appeared to me that you were being serious - humour doesn't always come across on message boards.

schemingbohemia

AngryLips wrote: »

You realise I meant that as a joke right?

No I didn't actually. The lack of an emoji or whatever they're called made me think you were serious.

end of the road

schemingbohemia wrote: »

This ties in with the idiotic comment the other day for a spur to Tara Street from Luas CrossCity. There is nothing wrong with a 4 - 5 minute walk! This type of attitude is actually what's wrong here, lambasting every proposed development because it means someone may have to walk a few minutes.

if removing a long walk encourages more use then it should be considered where possible

AlekSmart

schemingbohemia wrote: »

This ties in with the idiotic comment the other day for a spur to Tara Street from Luas CrossCity. There is nothing wrong with a 4 - 5 minute walk! This type of attitude is actually what's wrong here, lambasting every proposed development because it means someone may have to walk a few minutes.

Few people realize,or perhaps refuse to realize,that Cycling AND Walking are integral elements of ALL Urban Development & Planning processes these days.

http://dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Traffic/Documents/FINALFINALFAQS.pdf

Will these proposed changes have an impact on the city’s pedestrian network?

The need to grow the city’s public transport network will result in increased pedestrian flows in the city centre.
This will necessitate additional footpath space. A core pedestrian network, as outlined in the Dublin City Development Plan,is proposed. This would prioritise the ease of pedestrian movement and activity.

The Study proposes:

Develop a defined strategic pedestrian network in the city centre
An image can be
viewed on
http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

Wider footpaths at key locations and pedestrian priority at junctions

Link key Dublin tourist destinations into a pedestrian network

Ensure the needs of mobility impaired and disabled pedestrians are considered

Good signage, surfaces and lighting

The removal of unnecessary street clutter

Develop pedestrian friendly areas of open public space, as identified in the city’s Public Realm Strategy,where possible

Perhaps the first element of this which will be visible to all,will be the rationalization of Bus Stops within the City Centre post BXD.

KD345

One of the major flaws of the NTA with this project has been how BRT has been presented on its own with no other information on the current services it will affect.

If you look through the posts on this thread, and on the replies to the consultation, it's clear that many people are unsure of what impact BRT will have on existing bus routes. While the NTA does briefly reference changes to other bus services, there really should be full information provided as detailed as the BRT. The Swords area should be viewed as one transport project, to include BRT and regular bus services (Dublin Bus, Airport Services, Swords Express and Xpresso etc).

For many people in Swords and surrounding areas, they're actually quite happy with their bus service, so to suddenly be told BRT is coming near you and may impact on your current service can cause concern and confusion.

I would really like to think that the NTA have full plans designed for all bus services in the area, not just BRT. If they do, then why not make them public so everyone can see how their routes are being affected. Maybe their proposals will improve services for some, maybe they won't, but at least make it clear what their changes involve.

Right now, people in Swords are looking at a really detailed map of a fancy BRT with great glossy images, but really, the questions they want answered are simple things, like, if the 41 will still serve the Airport, will the 33A/B run to the Airport, what impact will BRT have on the Swords Express and 41X, what links will there be to Swords Village etc.

I know it might seem like a lot of information at an early stage, but BRT isn't just about one route, it should be about all transport services and right now that's not too clear. I sometimes feel the people of Swords don't want to be short changed and who can blame them, they've been promised so many different things over the years that it's hard to know what is what. The NTA are responsible for all transport services in the area, so why not tell people what changes are involved now.