Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

Carawaystick

Just for a point of reference, the 33x regularly took the same amount of time to get from Rush and Lusk train station to Tara st station as the train before the M1 was widened to 3 lanes, ~35 mins or so.
Train would arrive as I boarded bus and pass over Loop line bridge as I passed under.

If swift connections from Swords to Dublin city centre are required, not using the m1,m50 and north quays is going to give a suboptimal journey time.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes I have. Few can handle more than one bus at a time and bus drivers tend to avoid using the existing ones correctly. Too much hass pulling in and pulling out properly.

A few points on this.

First we assume that the BRT will replace the 16 and 41 routes. They currently represent about 50% of the Dublin Bus buses on this route.

Looking at the RTPI for the bus stop outside Drumcondra station now, of the 16 buses listed for the next hour or so, 8 of them are 16 or 41's

1) So that will be 50% less Dublin Buses using DB stops with their poor dwell times.

2) Most of these conflicting routes only start from Collins Avenue in, the BRT will have the section north of there almost completely to itself.

3) Most of the new, indented DB stops seem to be designed with two bays and to a much higher standard from Drumcondra in.

So even with Dublin Buses terrible dwell times and bunching, these new higher quality and wider and indented Dublin Bus bus stops should easily be able to handle 8 buses an hour. That is just one bus every 7.5 minutes or 2 per 15 minutes.

Also in time I can easily see some of these routes being redirected away from Drumcondra Road (13 and 11) and some of them seeing massive drop off in passenger use due to people switching to the much faster BRT and perhaps end up being cancelled or replaced by a local mini bus service (e.g. 1 & 44)

When you take all this into account, I don't see DB buses greatly delaying BRT, there just won't be that many DB buses and they will largely be out of the way.

BTW obviously Aircoach, BE and other coach services using the route won't delay BRT as they won't be stopping and these should also benefit from the upgrades as they won't be delayed behind DB buses anymore.

And that is the point, this project isn't just about BRT and the buses type it uses, but also a big upgrade to the road infrastructure that will benefit all bus and coach services all the route.

- 16/41 customers will benefit from switching to BRT, with it's bigger capacity buses, improved frequency and vastly reduced dwell and thus journey times.

- 1/44 customers could also benefit from switching to BRT and benefiting from the above, but at the cost of perhaps a slightly longer walk, something many do already due to the relatively low frequency of these routes at the moment.

- 11/13/33 (and 1/44 if they continue) will benefit from indented, much larger bus stops, which should also reduce them getting stuck behind other Dublin Buses at stops, thus also improving their journey times.

- Coaches, like Aircoach, etc. benefit from not getting stuck behind the reduced number of Dublin Buses any more.

Really it is a win, win for everyone.

That is the point that many people seem to be missing here, this project isn't just about building BRT, is is about improving bus, coach, pedestrian and cycling infrastructure for all people along this route.

Calina

bk wrote: »

A few points on this.

First we assume that the BRT will replace the 16 and 41 routes. They currently represent about 50% of the Dublin Bus buses on this route.

I would want that confirmed because if the 16 is removed, that represents a serious disimprovement of bus service provision in my area. Specifically the 16 serves parts of Santry/Beaumont not served by the 41.

BRT to Swords is a waste of time and money. MN will still have to be done. The NTA have acknowledged BRT is at or beyond capacity the day it starts operations.

Most of your comments are based on assumptions you are making none of which can be relied upon.

LXFlyer

We have had no indication of what changes there would be to the bus network, and these would have to be made clear before this project gets the green light in my view.

I don't think that the full 41/41c service will go as BRT does not serve either Swords Manor or River Valley.

Both they and the 16 will probably stay but at a reduced frequency northside - the 16 as pointed out serves areas of Beaumont a significant walk from BRT, and links the airport with the central south city.

But all of this is conjecture - there will in all probability be a major network review - but this really needs to be explained in detail beforehand.

end of the road

Bambi wrote: »

Our attitude to buses however, have been shaped by decades of dealing with dublin bus and bus eireann..and it shows

or more likely, its about not liking busses in general.

Bambi wrote: »

There's no reason we can't be like krakow or any other european city

there is . all cities are different. all cities have different setups. the basic operation might be the same but ultimately designed to fit the particular city and its needs. no matter what way we implemented something, we would never be exactly like krakow because krakows set up will be to their needs where as ours will be to the needs of our city

Bambi wrote: »

dublin city is not a unique little snowflake.

how isn't it

bk

end of the road wrote: »

how isn't it

You tell us so, how is Dublin different?

How is it different from lets say Amsterdam, that has almost the same population size, density and similar small mediaeval streets?

Or how is it different from Krakow, which has a very similar population size and similar old mediaeval city?

The only difference I see, is terrible service delivered by CIE.

Lets please stop making excuses for the terrible service that DB delivers and instead look to how it can be improved to deliver services just as good as these other similarly sized European cities.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

You tell us so, how is Dublin different?

How is it different from lets say Amsterdam, that has almost the same population size, density and similar small mediaeval streets?

Or how is it different from Krakow, which has a very similar population size and similar old mediaeval city?

The only difference I see, is terrible service delivered by CIE.

Lets please stop making excuses for the terrible service that DB delivers and instead look to how it can be improved to deliver services just as good as these other similarly sized European cities.

while its not perfect, terrible is an over exaggeration. i couldn't care a less about other cities in europe who are irrelevant to me. i only care about a bus service that works for dublin and its set up, something which we are slowly getting. dublin bus has improved emencely and continues to. again, more bus priority and traffic enforcement and auditing of stops should help a lot. there will still be a slight dwell time issue as its a mix of people using the bus, some take longer then others to sort themselves whether they have a leapcard or not, just how it is . things will take time, nothing ever gets sorted overnight

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

We have had no indication of what changes there would be to the bus network, and these would have to be made clear before this project gets the green light in my view.

I don't think that the full 41/41c service will go as BRT does not serve either Swords Manor or River Valley.

Both they and the 16 will probably stay but at a reduced frequency northside - the 16 as pointed out serves areas of Beaumont a significant walk from BRT, and links the airport with the central south city.

But all of this is conjecture - there will in all probability be a major network review - but this really needs to be explained in detail beforehand.

Logic would suggest that normal city services that currently operate along the current route should be replaced with local feeder services. It would seem daft to continue to operate the 16 and 41 etc as they are currently when you could provide a much more regular feeder service with less resources, this is of course presuming that the BRT line would have capacity.

One bus could do 3 or 4 or more runs between rivervalley and the BRT in the time it would take that bus to get into town and back out to river valley

cdebru

bk wrote: »

You tell us so, how is Dublin different?

How is it different from lets say Amsterdam, that has almost the same population size, density and similar small mediaeval streets?

Or how is it different from Krakow, which has a very similar population size and similar old mediaeval city?

The only difference I see, is terrible service delivered by CIE.

Lets please stop making excuses for the terrible service that DB delivers and instead look to how it can be improved to deliver services just as good as these other similarly sized European cities.

I would say political interference and political will to make it work that involves all the interested parties as well as a much earlier realisation that we can't all drive into a small place at the same time.

I dont know for sure but my experience of other European countries is that they are far less forgiving of just nipping into the shop, but it's OK because I have my hazard lights on, or I plan on turning up ahead so I'll just queue in the bus lane, or I need to make a delivery but this bus stop is closer than the provided loading bay so I'll just use that.


I don't know what the parking.arrangements are around the criminal courts in Amsterdam but I doubt they involve marked and unmarked police cars parking in bus lanes, bus stops, double yellow lines, footpaths or anywhere they pretty much feel like. As opposed to the Parkgate street area which is very revealing of the attitude to public transport or the law in general, is there an equivalent of Pearse street in Amsterdam do Amsterdam police triple park their own private vehicles outside the station before they head out to fine people for not obeying the traffic regulations ?

bk

cdebru wrote: »

I dont know for sure but my experience of other European countries is that they are far less forgiving of just nipping into the shop, but it's OK because I have my hazard lights on, or I plan on turning up ahead so I'll just queue in the bus lane, or I need to make a delivery but this bus stop is closer than the provided loading bay so I'll just use that.

Everything you say here is absolutely true. Many Irish people have a very laissez faire attitude. "Ah sure it will be fine, don't worry about it"

And the funny thing, it is exactly this sort of attitude that both you and End Of The Road are displaying right here on this thread about Dublin Bus!

"Ah sure Dublin Bus is fine, don't worry about it".

"Ah sure no need to look at what those silly Europeans are doing with their much more efficient bus services, don't worry about it".

"Ah sure Dublin isn't like other European cities, Dublin is different, don't worry about it".

And no suggestions on how to improve things and make them better. Instead just the typical Irish attitude of accepting that things are bad and that they can't be changed!

What a terrible, defeatist attitude!

Thing is, zero driver interaction ticketing and multi-door operations have nothing to do with people parking in bus lanes, etc. If implemented these things could massively improve the services of Dublin Bus. Yes, perhaps not to the extent of Amsterdam, due to those law breakers, but certainly much closer to it and certainly much better then what we have today.

As for people driving and parking in bus lanes, cameras on the front of buses that automatically issue €100 fines and 3 penalty points, similar to the ones now being used on London Bus would change that attitude very quickly.

What do you suggest? That we just continue to accept low quality service?

I don't, I don't accept that at all. I say we demand better service, demand change and I see no reason why we can't have it.

strandroad

cdebru wrote: »

I dont know for sure but my experience of other European countries is that they are far less forgiving of just nipping into the shop, but it's OK because I have my hazard lights on, or I plan on turning up ahead so I'll just queue in the bus lane, or I need to make a delivery but this bus stop is closer than the provided loading bay so I'll just use that.

That's Lisbon to a t. And yet it has great integrated transport (lacking in the cleanliness & modern fleet department though), despite its hilly, medieval setup.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

Logic would suggest that normal city services that currently operate along the current route should be replaced with local feeder services. It would seem daft to continue to operate the 16 and 41 etc as they are currently when you could provide a much more regular feeder service with less resources, this is of course presuming that the BRT line would have capacity.

One bus could do 3 or 4 or more runs between rivervalley and the BRT in the time it would take that bus to get into town and back out to river valley

Yes but are people going to pay two fares when they currently only pay once?


Even with a €1 discount the fares would be higher.


We'll have to wait and see - but my own belief is that it is critical that we know what the plans for the bus service are before the planning process is finished.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

Yes but are people going to pay two fares when they currently only pay once?


Even with a €1 discount the fares would be higher.


We'll have to wait and see - but my own belief is that it is critical that we know what the plans for the bus service are before the planning process is finished.

With leapcards you could easily discount the cost of the local service off the cost of a journey on the BRT line

cdebru

bk wrote: »

Everything you say here is absolutely true. Many Irish people have a very laissez faire attitude. "Ah sure it will be fine, don't worry about it"

And the funny thing, it is exactly this sort of attitude that both you and End Of The Road are displaying right here on this thread about Dublin Bus!

"Ah sure Dublin Bus is fine, don't worry about it".

"Ah sure no need to look at what those silly Europeans are doing with their much more efficient bus services, don't worry about it".

"Ah sure Dublin isn't like other European cities, Dublin is different, don't worry about it".

And no suggestions on how to improve things and make them better. Instead just the typical Irish attitude of accepting that things are bad and that they can't be changed!

What a terrible, defeatist attitude!

Thing is, zero driver interaction ticketing and multi-door operations have nothing to do with people parking in bus lanes, etc. If implemented these things could massively improve the services of Dublin Bus. Yes, perhaps not to the extent of Amsterdam, due to those law breakers, but certainly much closer to it and certainly much better then what we have today.

As for people driving and parking in bus lanes, cameras on the front of buses that automatically issue €100 fines and 3 penalty points, similar to the ones now being used on London Bus would change that attitude very quickly.

What do you suggest? That we just continue to accept low quality service?

I don't, I don't accept that at all. I say we demand better service, demand change and I see no reason why we can't have it.

Completely wrong I see what's wrong just as much as you do but I dont restrict my vision to only look at DB and convince myself if only the center doors opened more it would be all OK, yes non use of center doors is a problem but opening them us not a panacea to everything that's wrong with public transport in Dublin.
I have said it time and time again look at the cause of the problem, that is where the solution lies just cursing the itch or telling the patient not to scratch won't make the problem go away. Just saying the doors should be opened is not going to fix the problem, we all know they should be opened but nobody is doing anything to make it happen.

We shouldn't accept low standard but I dont accept that DB provide as poor a service as you maintain, that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be improved, but a lot of your complaints are beyond the control of DB, they can't just fit cameras and start issuing fines, it doesn't work that way.

And multi door use has everything to do with illegal parking and poor bus stop provision unfortunately you seem to be blinkered to that reality, just stop scratching is not a remedy.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

With leapcards you could easily discount the cost of the local service off the cost of a journey on the BRT line

The fare would still be more than people are paying currently as it involves two buses.

And how often would these local services run - how long would people have to wait, and I am focussing particularly in the off-peak (peak time 41X Xpresso services via the Port Tunnel would no doubt continue), if the local service departs on time before the BRT arrives? People could end up taking longer than currently.

And what about people travelling to/from the airport from the southside who use the 16? Or who use it from Beaumont? What will they do?

BRT will not serve Santry either, bypassing it completely, so there will still be a bus service through there as well.

We have an appalling track record of designing feeder bus services in this country, and I remain to be convinced by this. People do not like changing in this country and I'm not sure people in say Swords Manor or River Valley would be too keen on it.

As an example, the NTA were keen on restricting the 68 and 69 to running between the Red Cow LUAS stop and Newcastle/Rathcoole, but the local backlash was such that they relented and both routes were retained along the Naas Road. The main contention was that people could miss connections at Red Cow outbound and end up waiting significant periods of time.

There undoubtedly will be a revised bus network, but the devil will be in the detail. Making sweeping statements that such and such a bus will cease operating is putting the cart before the horse.

Carawaystick

Ah, no one knows the fare, so there can be no definite statement about it. The nta could set a combined fare less than a single fare if they wanted to.

But you're dead right about the lack of connection with feeder busses, the 33a was planned to connect with swiftway south of Swords, so passengers would sit in traffic in Swords main street to connect to Dublin...

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

The fare would still be more than people are paying currently as it involves two buses.

And how often would these local services run - how long would people have to wait, and I am focussing particularly in the off-peak (peak time 41X Xpresso services via the Port Tunnel would no doubt continue), if the local service departs on time before the BRT arrives? People could end up taking longer than currently.

And what about people travelling to/from the airport from the southside who use the 16? Or who use it from Beaumont? What will they do?

BRT will not serve Santry either, bypassing it completely, so there will still be a bus service through there as well.

We have an appalling track record of designing feeder bus services in this country, and I remain to be convinced by this. People do not like changing in this country and I'm not sure people in say Swords Manor or River Valley would be too keen on it.

As an example, the NTA were keen on restricting the 68 and 69 to running between the Red Cow LUAS stop and Newcastle/Rathcoole, but the local backlash was such that they relented and both routes were retained along the Naas Road. The main contention was that people could miss connections at Red Cow outbound and end up waiting significant periods of time.

There undoubtedly will be a revised bus network, but the devil will be in the detail. Making sweeping statements that such and such a bus will cease operating is putting the cart before the horse.

It wouldn't have to be, local fare €1 board a BRT bus within the hour the BRT fare is discounted by €1, so wouldn't cost anything more than just using the BRT.

I'm not stating any bus will definitely cease or not as just like you I have no idea, but it wouldn't seem to make much sense in adding a BRT route and leaving everything else as is, nor does it make sense to clog the BRT route with non BRT buses, logic would suggest that local services serving, the areas around swords, santry, Beaumont etc would be a more efficient use of the BRT line and non BRT buses, the 16 could continue on the south side linking into the BRT for the north side section of the route.
Obviously it depends on resources but if using the same resources or less you could have a bus every 5 to minutes linking into a BRT line with similar or better frequency with no added cost it would be a lot better than current services in that area

Calina

cdebru wrote: »

...
I'm not stating any bus will definitely cease or not as just like you I have no idea, but it wouldn't seem to make much sense in adding a BRT route and leaving everything else as is, nor does it make sense to clog the BRT route with non BRT buses, logic would suggest that local services serving, the areas around swords, santry, Beaumont etc would be a more efficient use of the BRT line and non BRT buses, the 16 could continue on the south side linking into the BRT for the north side section of the route.

It makes no sense to build a BRT route that is over capacity on the day it launches. All it does is ensure that the infrastructure cost goes up and we will still have to build MN at some point.

The sensible approach is to put in MN and fit the bus system around that more effectively.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

It wouldn't have to be, local fare €1 board a BRT bus within the hour the BRT fare is discounted by €1, so wouldn't cost anything more than just using the BRT.

I'm not stating any bus will definitely cease or not as just like you I have no idea, but it wouldn't seem to make much sense in adding a BRT route and leaving everything else as is, nor does it make sense to clog the BRT route with non BRT buses, logic would suggest that local services serving, the areas around swords, santry, Beaumont etc would be a more efficient use of the BRT line and non BRT buses, the 16 could continue on the south side linking into the BRT for the north side section of the route.
Obviously it depends on resources but if using the same resources or less you could have a bus every 5 to minutes linking into a BRT line with similar or better frequency with no added cost it would be a lot better than current services in that area

I know you're not, but another poster certainly is.

I would believe that there still will be ordinary bus services along the corridor, but to what extent remains to be seen.

One of the joys of the 16 bus for anyone from the south city is NOT having to change buses with suitcases etc. if travelling to the airport. I am not convinced that having to do so would be a particular improvement. Studies have shown that every time you introduce a change en route, passenger numbers drop.

The 16 may be re-routed, but I would be loath to remove a direct link from the south side of the city to the airport.

KD345

Capacity will certainly be an issue for this corridor. Whitehall and Drumcondra already struggle at peak times. Routes like the 16C and 44 offer much needed services in the morning. Even removing these few departures would affect hundreds of passengers.

Surely the biggest routes affected by this BRT will be Aircoach and Airlink. Why would anyone pay a premium for a slower service than Swiftway? The 16 should continue to be what it is, a local cross city service to the Airport.

BRT will have no impact on Glasnevin, Ballymun or Beaumont, so changing the 11, 13 or 16 makes no sense. Certainly they may decide to reroute some services a bit, but unless they provide enough capacity it won't work.

Anyway, these decisions are a fair bit away still. A lot can happen between now and the .

bk

cdebru wrote: »

Obviously it depends on resources but if using the same resources or less you could have a bus every 5 to minutes linking into a BRT line with similar or better frequency with no added cost it would be a lot better than current services in that area

Exactly, at the moment, the 1 and 44 services are only one per hour as it is. Hardly high frequency services. I know many if not most people who live in the areas on the Northside exclusively serviced by these buses normally walk out onto the main road and get the passing 16/41 instead due to the low frequency of these services.

For the most part these services are mostly about adding extra capacity through Drumcondra at peak times. A higher capacity, higher frequency BRT will handily take care of that.

The fact the 1/44 service minor housing estates at their terminus is largely irrelevant. The walking distances from these estates to the BRT stops is well within international (and even DB) norms for public transport.

A local minibus that operates around these estates and links up with the BRT would offer a frequency much higher then the current 1 per hour.

This would be a significant enhancement for the elderly, disabled, etc.

Yes they would have to ensure that it didn't cost more then it currently does. But that can be easily done as you say with integrated ticketing.

KD345 wrote: »

Surely the biggest routes affected by this BRT will be Aircoach and Airlink. Why would anyone pay a premium for a slower service than Swiftway? The 16 should continue to be what it is, a local cross city service to the Airport.

Why would the Aircoach and Airlink be slower?!!

They are a non stop service, so they should still be faster then Swiftway.

Along the Drumcondra road they will use the Swiftway lane and should benefit from the removal (and indented stops) of Dublin Bus services with their slower dwell times.

However I agree they will suffer a little as Swiftway while still slower, will be much faster then the 16/41, so should make is more attractive. I'd expect it to effect Airlink more, as it is more like a city bus type service compared to Aircoach service offering a higher quality coach like service.

end of the road

who is going to bother with a minibus. the elderly and disabled are hardly going to bother changing off one to the BRT. much easier to walk to the brt bus stop or if in a wheelchair, go your self to the brt stop. i suppose it could be done on a trial to see would some use it, if it works great, if it doesn't withdraw it

Dyr

bk wrote: »

A local minibus that operates around these estates and links up with the BRT would offer a frequency much higher then the current 1 per hour.

Good idea in principle, but IME those kind of services have a terrible track record

bk

Looking at the NTA report, it is clear that most of the unique estates served by the 1, 44 and 16 (Santry) are all within 10 minutes walk or less of a BRT stop.

That is well within national norms for walking distances from public transport.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

Looking at the NTA report, it is clear that most of the unique estates served by the 1, 44 and 16 (Santry) are all within 10 minutes walk or less of a BRT stop.

That is well within national norms for walking distances from public transport.

I reckon the proposed santry south stop is about 20-25 minutes walk away from the 1 terminus

bk

Bambi wrote: »

I reckon the proposed santry south stop is about 20-25 minutes walk away from the 1 terminus

Strictly speaking you are correct, though that stop (226) is only a 2 minute walk from the 4/9/13 bus stop on the Ballymun Road!

What I should have said most stop are about a 10 minutes walk from either the BRT or other high frequency bus service.

On the 1 route, stop no 227 looks to be the furthest, it would be 11 minute walk to the BRT according to Google Maps.

As for the 44, completely pointless route on the northern end, the furthest any stop in Larkhill from a BRT stop is 6 minutes, with most being closer!

LXFlyer

The 44 is far from pointless - it is doing very well out of DCU since it was extended by all accounts, and as KD345 points out, it, the 16c and the 1 fill a vital role in sweeping clear the corridor when all the other routes pass through full during the peaks.

Icepick

- scrap this
- build MN
- improve DB and bus and cycle lanes by removing on street parking on busy streets and so on

Icepick

Also, the NTA need to watch this video and start designing proper city cycling infrastructure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpQMgbDJPok

Dyr

bk wrote: »

Strictly speaking you are correct, though that stop (226) is only a 2 minute walk from the 4/9/13 bus stop on the Ballymun Road!

4 goes to monkstown via phibsoro, the 13 goes to clondalkin via drumcondra, why would someone who uses the 1 get either unless you assume everyone only commutes to O'Connell Street ? Its a different route entirely

The 1 is actually less frequent but more reliable than both