Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

Inquitus

mickmmc wrote: »

The reality is: at the end of the day it is a political decision to grant funding to NTA for Swords BRT.

I read last year that, with regard to implementing Network Direct for Swords, the Managing Director of Dublin Bus said bus services for Swords were complex due to the various bus routes operating in the area. DB understand the difficulties in trying to make any changes.
Do the NTA?

Operating a BRT service on Swords bypass is not going to meets for public transport in Swords Main Street. Are people going to carry bags etc from Pavilions shopping centre to the bypass when existing bus services stop outside the door? Even Swords Express operates via Malahide Road to access Pavilions.

The BRT is next to useless for anyone living in Rivervalley, which is served by the 41C.

The BRT stop for the Airport is outside ALSAA. That is at least a 5-8 min walk to Terminal 2 and longer for terminal 1. Realistically, a shuttle service will be required from ALSAA to the Airport, which is a joke.

There is a new town planned between Swords and Rolestown (41B route). Again, the BRT is next to useless for passengers for that area.

BRT is of little benefit to people living in Hollywell, Kinsealy and Drynam.

In my opinion a BRT for Swords is a white elephant.

BRT is a waste of Space for Swords, huge expense for a service that offers little or nothing more than the existing Swords express.

LXFlyer

Inquitus wrote: »

BRT is a waste of Space for Swords, huge expense for a service that offers little or nothing more than the existing Swords express.

Again, this is NOT just about Swords. It's about the entire Swords Road corridor (Swords, Airport, Santry, Whitehall and Drumcondra) which (apart from Swords) Swords Express does not serve.

People have to get this notion that this is just about Swords and the Airport out of their heads.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

Again, this is NOT just about Swords. It's about the entire Swords Road corridor (Swords, Airport, Santry, Whitehall and Drumcondra) which (apart from Swords) Swords Express does not serve.

People have to get this notion that this is just about Swords and the Airport out of their heads.

100% Pure True.

Swords Express is just that,essentially a Point to Point service and will remain so in the medium term.

The REAL focus of BRT and the associated alterations to other North County Dublin Bus Services,is the extensive County Development Plan for Fingal and environs.

Swiftway,is perhaps the very first occasion where a Public Transport focus has been Included as an integral part of the Planning Process....Long Long Overdue in Ireland,and VERY threatening to some elements of Local Administration in these areas.

Is it Progress ...?

DEFINITELY !!! :eek:

xper

Just looking at those plans recently released by Dublin City Council, I think this picture illustrates just how BRT is not a tram without rails, let alone a metro, but a much inferior transport system.

cgcsb

xper wrote: »

Just looking at those plans recently released by Dublin City Council, I think this picture illustrates just how BRT is not a tram without rails, let alone a metro, but a much inferior transport system.

The broken white line is quite alarming alright. Are cars going to be cutting accross/queing in the brt lane? certainly nowhere near light rail spec or even your average brt standard internationally.

schemingbohemia

end of the road wrote: »

if removing a long walk encourages more use then it should be considered where possible

How is a 5 minute walk "long"? Moving a route through or into an area with congestion issues just doesn't make sense to appease a small amount of people who won't walk 5 minutes. And the whole plan for these is to do it "where possible" the benefits and dis-benefits are weighed up you know, they're not doing it just for kicks.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

The broken white line is quite alarming alright. Are cars going to be cutting accross/queing in the brt lane? certainly nowhere near light rail spec or even your average brt standard internationally.

that pic is presumably from the recent proposal for the city centre - in that proposal there would be no private cars (or taxis for that matter) on Westmoreland St, so no real need to segregate the BRT.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

that pic is presumably from the recent proposal for the city centre - in that proposal there would be no private cars (or taxis for that matter) on Westmoreland St, so no real need to segregate the BRT.

Not quite right. Cars could access Westmoreland Street via D'Olier Street and College Street as could taxis, but they would be fairly small in number I would imagine.

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

that pic is presumably from the recent proposal for the city centre - in that proposal there would be no private cars (or taxis for that matter) on Westmoreland St, so no real need to segregate the BRT.

There'll still be cars using D'Olier/Westmoreland st as a work around and to access fleet st car park.

lucernarian

lxflyer wrote: »

Not quite right. Cars could access Westmoreland Street via D'Olier Street and College Street as could taxis, but they would be fairly small in number I would imagine.

Taxis?! Westmoreland Street?! Fairly small in number?! I very much doubt it.

loyatemu

lucernarian wrote: »

Taxis?! Westmoreland Street?! Fairly small in number?! I very much doubt it.

they won't be able to drive straight through from Dame Street so unless there's a rank on the street it won't be on the way to anywhere else, they'll have no reason to be there.

Aard

loyatemu wrote: »

they won't be able to drive straight through from Dame Street so unless there's a rank on the street it won't be on the way to anywhere else, they'll have no reason to be there.

Sounds a bit like the current state of the top of Grafton Street / Stephen's Green area wrt taxis.

LXFlyer

lucernarian wrote: »

Taxis?! Westmoreland Street?! Fairly small in number?! I very much doubt it.

The only available route would be the one described in my post above.

They won't be able to come from either Dame Street or Pearse Street.

I can't imagine that it would be anything like it is now as a result.

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

There'll still be cars using D'Olier/Westmoreland st as a work around and to access fleet st car park.

There have been at least one, if not two, draft designs of the street layot which show that the Westmoreland St access to to the Temple Bar section of Fleet St will be blocked off.

Telchak

monument wrote: »

There have been at least one, if not two, draft designs of the street layot which show that the Westmoreland St access to to the Temple Bar section of Fleet St will be blocked off.

The Metro North railway order had it that way too.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

There'll still be cars using D'Olier/Westmoreland st as a work around and to access fleet st car park.

The same report also suggests moving the car parks out of the core "pedestrianised" city center, to larger facilities just outside the core city.

It doesn't go into details of which car parks will be moved or to where (I'm sure negotiations with car park owners will be required), but the Fleet Street car park is an obvious candidate. Having cars driven down Temple Bar is simple madness!

cgcsb

monument wrote: »

There have been at least one, if not two, draft designs of the street layot which show that the Westmoreland St access to to the Temple Bar section of Fleet St will be blocked off.

Really? what of the car park so? That's really interesting. If that happens it'd set a precedent that Brown Thomas could possibly be next.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

The same report also suggests moving the car parks out of the core "pedestrianised" city center, to larger facilities just outside the core city.

It doesn't go into details of which car parks will be moved or to where (I'm sure negotiations with car park owners will be required), but the Fleet Street car park is an obvious candidate. Having cars driven down Temple Bar is simple madness!

This is one HUGE issue,which has both framed and undermined Dublin Corporation/City Council policy for decades now.

Every single Traffic Plan for the City Centre has had buried deep within it a line or two about "maintaining access to Car Parks at all times".

Make no mistake,the High and Supreme Courts beckon knowingly at ANY City Authority daring to challenge these Car Park Providers !

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

The same report also suggests moving the car parks out of the core "pedestrianised" city center, to larger facilities just outside the core city.

It doesn't go into details of which car parks will be moved or to where (I'm sure negotiations with car park owners will be required), but the Fleet Street car park is an obvious candidate. Having cars driven down Temple Bar is simple madness!

I did read that but assumed it was fluff that'd be 'negotiated' away. Would love to see it happen though.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

Make no mistake,the High and Supreme Courts beckon knowingly at ANY City
Authority daring to challenge these Car Park Providers !

I wouldn't imagine it would be a CPO, rather a negotiation with them.

Either to convert the car park planning permission to be used for other, perhaps more profitable uses (retail/hotel/etc.), something Brown Thomas maybe very interested in.

Or a straight swap for another new multi-storey car park, a little further out (for instance in the case of the Drury Street Underground car park).

Yes there would be an element in this of buying off the owners, but I think it is a nettle that finally most be grasped.

Given that it is the NTA saying this rather then DCC, I think there well may be a lot more political will behind it this time.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

I wouldn't imagine it would be a CPO, rather a negotiation with them.

Either to convert the car park planning permission to be used for other, perhaps more profitable uses (retail/hotel/etc.), something Brown Thomas maybe very interested in.

Or a straight swap for another new multi-storey car park, a little further out (for instance in the case of the Drury Street Underground car park).

Yes there would be an element in this of buying off the owners, but I think it is a nettle that finally most be grasped.

Given that it is the NTA saying this rather then DCC, I think there well may be a lot more political will behind it this time.

Given the era in which virtually all of Dublin's Multi-Story car parks stem from,it will indeed be interesting to get a sense of the various leases,conditions and assorted other elements which developers of that time were facilitated with.

It is a nettle long overdue a good grasp,but as you suggest the Political will was never there....perhaps the reasons for that lack of will may become apparent via this current process.

A valid use for at least one of these locations would be a Taxi Holding point,where vehicles over and above On Street Rank capacity would be held.

The advances in CCTV in addition to GPS and other vehicle tracking systems now makes such marshalling far easier than before...and it would give the Taxi fraternity someplace to share anecdotes and relax...:D

Riskymove

cgcsb wrote: »

Really? what of the car park so? That's really interesting. If that happens it'd set a precedent that Brown Thomas could possibly be next.

if Fleet st is blocked off at Westmoreland street, flows could be redesigned to allow access form South Quays or Dame Street instead.

cgcsb

Riskymove wrote: »

if Fleet st is blocked off at Westmoreland street, flows could be redesigned to allow access form South Quays or Dame Street instead.

Unlikely, There's to be no private cars on college Green which means no private cars on a good stretch of Dame Street. The South quays will be under pressure to become more ped friendly given how traffic on the north quays will be greatly reduced. If traffic were to access the car park via Aston Place it'd mean cutting across several bus stops, not a very holistic approach.

lucernarian

Aard wrote: »

Sounds a bit like the current state of the top of Grafton Street / Stephen's Green area wrt taxis.

Exactly Aard, I find it hard to imagine somewhere as central as the likes of Westmoreland St. with an absence of taxis - unless there was no rank, official or otherwise.

Regarding the car parks, is there enough of a notice period that could be given to shut off private car access to a multi-story car park without compensation or a buyout being required? Twenty years perhaps? This isn't a solution for the Fleet Street one but perhaps worth looking at for long-term projects.

Riskymove

cgcsb wrote: »

Unlikely, There's to be no private cars on college Green which means no private cars on a good stretch of Dame Street. The South quays will be under pressure to become more ped friendly given how traffic on the north quays will be greatly reduced. If traffic were to access the car park via Aston Place it'd mean cutting across several bus stops, not a very holistic approach.

there are a number of roads from Dame street around central Bank etc well away for college green

Cars could go down the side of Blooms Hotel and turn onto fleet street with minimum impact

LXFlyer

lucernarian wrote: »

Exactly Aard, I find it hard to imagine somewhere as central as the likes of Westmoreland St. with an absence of taxis - unless there was no rank, official or otherwise.

Regarding the car parks, is there enough of a notice period that could be given to shut off private car access to a multi-story car park without compensation or a buyout being required? Twenty years perhaps? This isn't a solution for the Fleet Street one but perhaps worth looking at for long-term projects.

I didn't say that there would be no taxis, but if there is no through route other than coming from O'Connell Street or Burgh Quay around via D'Olier Street and College Street, then, coupled with the left turn ban onto Aston Quay, it's fairly inevitable that there will be a sizeable drop in taxi numbers passing along that street.


The current through routes from Pearse Street and College Green will be removed which account for most of the traffic.

lucernarian

lxflyer wrote: »

I didn't say that there would be no taxis, but if there is no through route other than coming from O'Connell Street or Burgh Quay around via D'Olier Street and College Street, then, coupled with the left turn ban onto Aston Quay, it's fairly inevitable that there will be a sizeable drop in taxi numbers passing along that street.


The current through routes from Pearse Street and College Green will be removed which account for most of the traffic.

I know you didn't. Still, I'd find their absence - or the absence of most of them, hard to imagine. The number of taxis currently seem to dwarf any other type of vehicle - private motorist, goods van, buses in that part of Dublin. It will have an impact but in a game where they might patiently wait half an hour or longer for a guaranteed fare from a rank rather than drive around, I can foresee a still substantial number taxis taking a circuitous route to reach the choicest spot for customers.

Carawaystick

Seems this will have a large impact on nightlife in Dublin, taxis will have to divert via Christchurch arch to get to O'Connell St from Wexford st.

Or will public transport run longer at night?

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Seems this will have a large impact on nightlife in Dublin, taxis will have to divert via Christchurch arch to get to O'Connell St from Wexford st.

Or will public transport run longer at night?

Posters here are suggesting that we may get some 24 hour bus routes but that's going to be a challenge. On the one hand you have the taxi industry remaining competitive because their peek hours are hours when there is no public transport and the skeleton nitelink service has artificially inflated fares and no route/real time information available on line.

On the other hand you'll no doubt be getting grumbles from NBRU for rostering drivers on weekday nights. I suspect we'll be left without a night bus for a long time yet.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Posters here are suggesting that we may get some 24 hour bus routes but that's going to be a challenge. On the one hand you have the taxi industry remaining competitive because their peek hours are hours when there is no public transport and the skeleton nitelink service has artificially inflated fares and no route/real time information available on line.

On the other hand you'll no doubt be getting grumbles from NBRU for rostering drivers on weekday nights. I suspect we'll be left without a night bus for a long time yet.

There are already full agreements in place between management and unions at Dublin Bus for 24 hour working, but let's not get that in the way of a rant.