Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

There are already full agreements in place between management and unions at Dublin Bus for 24 hour working, but let's not get that in the way of a rant.

I said grumbles, I am aware they can be rostered 24 hours, putting that into practice may cause problems though. Even tendering of routes caused a strike sure.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

I said grumbles, I am aware they can be rostered 24 hours, putting that into practice may cause problems though. Even tendering of routes caused a strike sure.

At the risk of repeating myself, there is full agreement in place already, and has been for some time, for 24 hour working of normal routes.

The route tendering issue was far more complex - it was dealing with pensions, and security of employment.

I suspect that you will find the unions quite happy for the buses to have their hours extended as it means more work for their members, particularly if DB were to lose any of routes out to tender.

Dyr

Given that this drive is apparently about increasing bus efficiency and decreasing dwell time is not perhaps wise to look at doing something that seems a bit mad at first:

Have the NTA bring back the bus conductor

Sure there's the cost of the NTA having to hire conductors and the certainty that DB unions will go on strike (because: change? no change!) but it would absolutely decimate dwell times far more effectively than all these structural changes. There's no reason conductors cant operate the ticketing system currently in place efficiently and securely. You'd also have the benefit of increased security/civil behaviour on buses and the NTA will have eyes on the ground keeping a check on dublin bus and their shenanigans

Probably cheaper than this plan to get a few swords TDs re-elected too

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Have the NTA bring back the bus conductor

Sure there's the cost of the NTA having to hire conductors and the certainty that DB unions will go on strike (because: change? no change!) but it would absolutely decimate dwell times far more effectively than all these structural changes. There's no reason conductors cant operate the ticketing system currently in place efficiently and securely. You'd also have the benefit of increased security/civil behaviour on buses and the NTA will have eyes on the ground keeping a check on dublin bus and their shenanigans

And who is going to pay for all that extra staff?

Answer: You and I

And what an incredible waste of money it would be when the same effect can be accomplished and much less cost by:

- Actually using both doors consistently at all stops, enter through the front door, exit through the rear.
- Introduce a flat fare, no need to interact with the driver just tag-on
- Work towards eliminating cash fares (with a high flat cash fare versus the leap fare).

However all of that will be completely unnecessary on Swiftway as it will operate more like Luas. Multiple doors, enter and exit through all doors and off bus ticketing.

Calina

bk wrote: »

- Introduce a flat fare, no need to interact with the driver just tag-on
- Work towards eliminating cash fares (with a high flat cash fare versus the leap fare).

I would agree with this. Far too many regular bus users need to interact with the driver because there isn't a flat fare. Not only that, I've calculated it is not worth my while on the basis of 2 bus trips a day to get either a monthly commuter or a 30 day rambler. For the most of the city, I think the stage system is outmoded and counter productive. If they aren't going to make the monthly commuter tickets seriously attractive then make the fares flat and reduce the numbers of people who have to interact with the driver.

Secondly, some bus stops are too close together.

LXFlyer

While the finances of the operating companies remain in the state that they are, I would see that the process of simplifying the fares structure will continue, but in such a way not to risk a sudden jolt to their finances.

A flat fare is not going to happen overnight, simply because it would risk a major change in revenues. I think that it may certainly happen in due course, but not in the immediate future.

Cash fares have been consistently raised at a higher annual percentage each year than LEAP fares and I'd imagine that would continue.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

While the finances of the operating companies remain in the state that they are, I would see that the process of simplifying the fares structure will continue, but in such a way not to risk a sudden jolt to their finances.

A flat fare is not going to happen overnight, simply because it would risk a major change in revenues. I think that it may certainly happen in due course, but not in the immediate future.

Haha, I knew you were going to respond with this, because you say the exact same thing every time I raise the idea of flat fares!

Surely the NTA now has a massive amount of data on fares from Leap and the ticket machines and it should be relatively straight forward to use that data to model what the flat fare should be set too in order to be revenue neutral. It really isn't rocket science.

They can always increase (or decrease) the flat fares if they find revenue is suffering.

You also ignore the point that by making the fare structure simpler to understand and by speeding up boarding times (and thus journey times) it creates a more attractive bus service, which in turn is likely to attract more customers.

BTW DB made a 11.5 million profit last year! and is expected to increase a lot over the next few years thanks to increases in passenger numbers. So now seems to be the perfect time to introduce this change when they are already profitable and growing.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Haha, I knew you were going to respond with this, because you say the exact same thing every time I raise the idea of flat fares!

Surely the NTA now has a massive amount of data on fares from Leap and the ticket machines and it should be relatively straight forward to use that data to model what the flat fare should be set too in order to be revenue neutral. It really isn't rocket science.

They can always increase (or decrease) the flat fares if they find revenue is suffering.

You also ignore the point that by making the fare structure simpler to understand and by speeding up boarding times (and thus journey times) it creates a more attractive bus service, which in turn is likely to attract more customers.

BTW DB made a 11.5 million profit last year! and is expected to increase a lot over the next few years thanks to increases in passenger numbers. So now seems to be the perfect time to introduce this change when they are already profitable and growing.

I keep on saying it, because the country's finances and the company's finances are still in a mess.

We are not dealing with "normal" businesses here. We are dealing with essential public services. As such the people responsible for them (be it at company or NTA level) are not going to take unnecessary risks.

The NTA also have made clear that any changes to fares structures would be over a period of years to avoid any "shocks" to the system, either to the operating companies revenues, or to the users in terms of changes to fares.

And I have to say that your analysis of DB's finances is seriously flawed. DB may have made a profit in 2014, but there are still €40m of accumulated losses from previous years on their balance sheet that need to be clawed back.

The company still has a qualified audit report because their net assets are not more than half the amount of their called up share capital. The company has net current liabilities. You don't just look at one year and say, "oh we're making profits again, we can do what we like". You have to look at the bigger financial picture. There is a long way to go before DB is back in good health.

The NTA have committed to a formal annual fares review process, which allows for the companies to make their case, and the NTA to review it and make a determination. I cannot see that anyone involved in that process would want to have it extended to potentially multiple fare changes if the flat fare impacted badly on the company's finances.

No more than anyone else, I'd like to see the fares simplified, but in doing that you cannot ignore the financial position that DB is in, and that is still not good. The reality is that we will continue to see simplification of fares, but not overnight.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

And who is going to pay for all that extra staff?

Answer: You and I

And what an incredible waste of money it would be when the same effect can be accomplished and much less cost by:

- Actually using both doors consistently at all stops, enter through the front door, exit through the rear.
- Introduce a flat fare, no need to interact with the driver just tag-on
- Work towards eliminating cash fares (with a high flat cash fare versus the leap fare).

However all of that will be completely unnecessary on Swiftway as it will operate more like Luas. Multiple doors, enter and exit through all doors and off bus ticketing.

You and I are already paying a fortune for a single corridor from swords, which will be dug up again in a decade, tops. How much more would conductors across the city cost for that decade?

The doors ideas is a nonsense and it always will be, half the fleet doesn't have two doors in the first place. Its an idea that dies every time it meets the real world because it only works on the drawing board. Swiftway is going to cost a fortune to put that system in and it will only be for a single corridor

The flat fare does not exist, the cash fares do. You wont change that without putting automatic every paypoints at every bus stop, that won't be cheap.

Neither will it stop people (i.e. tourists) asking the driver a million bloody questions as they get on. Nor will it stop the massive fare evasion that's going on.

Neither will it make the buses more secure.

But it will get a few TD's re-elected, hand a contract out to a lot of companies to build swiftway at twice the cost planned and the hornby brigade will have something to get excited about.

You basically have to weigh the cost of employing conductors against the benefit that will bring the commuter

Then weigh the cost of building swiftway on all routes, the disruption that building work will cause against the benefit it will bring the commuter

Pretty sure swiftway ain't winning there.

Calina

Bambi wrote: »

You and I are already paying a fortune for a single corridor from swords, which will be dug up again in a decade, tops. How much more would conductors across the city cost for that decade?

Strictly speaking I don't see why we should need conductors and I am absolutely against the BRT corridor from Swords as nothing anyone has said has convinced me that Metro will be built as well if BRT goes ahead. That's based on Ireland's project management policy of yerrah it'll be grand.

Bambi wrote: »

The doors ideas is a nonsense and it always will be, half the fleet doesn't have two doors in the first place. Its an idea that dies every time it meets the real world because it only works on the drawing board. Swiftway is going to cost a fortune to put that system in and it will only be for a single corridor

The doors are starting to be used. I think if they were systematically opened at stops, public habits would build.

Bambi wrote: »

The flat fare does not exist, the cash fares do. You wont change that without putting automatic every paypoints at every bus stop, that won't be cheap.

The reason the flatfare doesn't exist is because people are convincing themselves it would be "too hard". In any case, at some locations, there are far too many bus stops. I have no idea what the metric for putting them in was in the area around me but in most European cities where I lived, there tend to be 800m between stops on the same route. Now, we can't do that because "we would have more people getting on the buses at a lower number of stops and the dwell time would go up" which it wouldn't if everyone didn't have to interact with the driver". So what we have now, yerrah it'll be grand.

Bambi wrote: »

Neither will it stop people (i.e. tourists) asking the driver a million bloody questions as they get on. Nor will it stop the massive fare evasion that's going on.

I'd be interested to see figures for fare evasion in Dublin. Flat fares would do away with people underpaying their fares for one thing.

Bambi wrote: »

Neither will it make the buses more secure.

No, we need transport police for that.

Bambi wrote: »

But it will get a few TD's re-elected, hand a contract out to a lot of companies to build swiftway at twice the cost planned and the hornby brigade will have something to get excited about.

There is no need to be scathing about the hornby brigade. Swiftway should not be built, but antagonising transport nerds is not a good reason not to build it and quite frankly, I think a lot of them would be more interested in a metro.

Bambi wrote: »

You basically have to weigh the cost of employing conductors against the benefit that will bring the commuter

I see none that couldn't be brought in other ways.

Bambi wrote: »

Then weigh the cost of building swiftway on all routes, the disruption that building work will cause against the benefit it will bring the commuter

We are not and should not ever be considering building swiftway on all routes even if we do it on Swords. There seems to be some stupid idea in this country that we can look at each transport mode in isolation from the others.

Bambi wrote: »

Pretty sure swiftway ain't winning there.

It wasn't to begin with because the perception that it is a delaying tactic to avoid building a railbased system.

I've also seen arguments talking about the Drumcondra corridor. If anything, this is an argument in favour of putting a metro in from the city centre out to Whitehall or Glasnevin initially (because no doubt the route will change again). We don't need to build the whole lot of it in one go - it can be done in stages of getting the higher used sections built first. Sure it will cause disruption but frankly the city centre is near unnavigable at the moment anyway.

Inquitus

The BRT route along the Rathbeale Road, past the Gaelscoil and Educate Together and along past applewood to the mainroad is awful in its concept, it makes dropping and picking kids up from school more dangerous, on a road thats width is inadequate already, and as I mentioned before it offers nothing more to resident of the area than existing services such as the Swords Express, if they insist on wasting money putting this in have it start at the Pavillions or on Swords mainstreet instead of making the roads around the housing estates which are thronged with kids more dangerous.

bk

Bambi wrote: »

You and I are already paying a fortune for a single corridor from swords, which will be dug up again in a decade, tops. How much more would conductors across the city cost for that decade?

Nonsense, Swiftway isn't just about introducing multi-door buses, that is just one aspect of it. It is about introducing international modern bus operation best practices. Something Dublin Bus has failed at miserably till now.

Anyway the vast majority of the cost of Swiftway is the significant rebuilding of the road network along the route, road widening, improved bus lanes, etc. All items that are badly needed and will also very much benefit Dublin Bus and all the other bus operators on the corridors.

Swiftway is about a significant upgrade to our bus services in almost every way.

Bambi wrote: »

The doors ideas is a nonsense and it always will be, half the fleet doesn't have two doors in the first place. Its an idea that dies every time it meets the real world because it only works on the drawing board. Swiftway is going to cost a fortune to put that system in and it will only be for a single corridor

Every bus bought over the last 3 years has dual doors and all new buses bought are required to have dual doors. Yes it will take a few more years, but eventually the fleet will be 100% dual door.

Bambi wrote: »

The flat fare does not exist, the cash fares do. You wont change that without putting automatic every paypoints at every bus stop, that won't be cheap.

Huh? Why would you need to put paypoints at every stop?!!

You clearly don't understand the idea.

1) Make Leap a flat fare of about €2.10
2) Make cash a flat fare of about €3.50 to €4

Leap users have no interaction with drivers. Cash users will still interact with drivers, but there should even be time savings there as there would be a simplified fare. No need to specify destination, etc.

The idea being to set the flat cash fare high enough that it encourages people to switch to Leap.

After a few years, once most people have switched to Leap, then you don't take cash anymore.

Non of this is rocket science, this is exactly what they did very successfully in London.

No need for conductors to do this or even off bus ticket machines and way cheaper to implement.

Schadenfreudia

Silly question I'm sure - but when are these BRTs being built?

lucernarian

Inquitus wrote: »

The BRT route along the Rathbeale Road, past the Gaelscoil and Educate Together and along past applewood to the mainroad is awful in its concept, it makes dropping and picking kids up from school more dangerous, on a road thats width is inadequate already, and as I mentioned before it offers nothing more to resident of the area than existing services such as the Swords Express, if they insist on wasting money putting this in have it start at the Pavillions or on Swords mainstreet instead of making the roads around the housing estates which are thronged with kids more dangerous.

Why are cars expected to be able to drive in and around schools when the kids often only have a 5 or 10 minute walk anyway? I'm not sure I like the route selection but going by the very strong opposition in Pine Grove Park and the other nearby estates, it won't be able to take the original suggested route. And Main Street is thronged with traffic, the BRT idea won't work if its speed is no better than the existing services.

Inquitus

lucernarian wrote: »

Why are cars expected to be able to drive in and around schools when the kids often only have a 5 or 10 minute walk anyway? I'm not sure I like the route selection but going by the very strong opposition in Pine Grove Park and the other nearby estates, it won't be able to take the original suggested route. And Main Street is thronged with traffic, the BRT idea won't work if its speed is no better than the existing services.

Putting in the bus corridor will make it more dangerous for the kids to walk/cycle to school.

lucernarian

Inquitus wrote: »

Putting in the bus corridor will make it more dangerous for the kids to walk/cycle to school.

How will it possibly make it more dangerous for them to walk? Especially compared to the situation right now on the Rathbeale road? I'd say the cars bringing kids the 10 minute walk home from St. Cronan's are more dangerous to kids walking home than the 41/b every 15 or 20 minutes.

LXFlyer

Inquitus wrote: »

Putting in the bus corridor will make it more dangerous for the kids to walk/cycle to school.

Can I ask why?

Kids cycle/walk to schools all over Dublin along roads that have frequent bus services, and they seem to do so without any major fuss?

Schadenfreudia

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Silly question I'm sure - but when are these BRTs being built?

Why build them when they are already carrying out their intended function quite well?

For over 30 years I have read pile after pile after pile of complete horse manure from governments about the next big shiny transport plan for Dublin. This is another one. The country hasn't got the money, and even if it did the money can't be spent on Dublin's infrastructure without spending even more money on vanity projects for the benefit of TDs in the badlands and the boondocks.

So instead we get shiny new plan after shiny new plan intended to divert our attention away from the failure of government agencies to actually get something done - and this is yet another shiny new plan.

It will not happen, but at least while we're waiting for it not to happen we'll all have really interesting debates about the merits and downsides of the shiny new plan.

Vapourware, that's all it is and that's all Dublin will get.

Inquitus

lxflyer wrote: »

Can I ask why?

Kids cycle/walk to schools all over Dublin along roads that have frequent bus services, and they seem to do so without any major fuss?

The proposed route turns into the new development where the old prefab school used to be and drives straight past the 2 schools, currently the road is a cul de sac with no traffic except for the school or the builders working on Millers Glen, so they are routing a high speed bus service right along what is currently a residential dead end street servicing nothing but the 2 schools.

Apologies it seems they saw sense and have revised the route since I last looked to something alot less stupid

mickmmc

The Transport Capital projects are due to be announced before the end of July. We should know by then if BRT is one of the projects that will receive funding.

My understanding is that time is running out on the DART Underground railway order and a decision will have to made on DU.

According to the local press, Fingal County Council have appointed Consultants to develop a new Cultural Quarter at the end of Main Street/North Street. The options outlined were to pedestrianize Main St. or make it one way. The Consultants are still working on the plan. There may be no buses travelling on Main St. in the future.

There is no mention of BRT as part of that plan for Main St.

Schadenfreudia

Deleted User wrote: »

Why build them when they are already carrying out their intended function quite well?

As I suspected, there is no timeline? I don't, however agree with you that "there is no money".

But that's a different debate.

LXFlyer

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

As I suspected, there is no timeline? I don't, however agree with you that "there is no money".

But that's a different debate.

Not much point in building vehicles until the project has gone through the planning process, and received formal government approval.

The next step is to make a formal planning application, along with full EIS and that's expected to happen later this year.

Markcheese

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why build them when they are already carrying out their intended function quite well?

For over 30 years I have read pile after pile after pile of complete horse manure from governments about the next big shiny transport plan for Dublin. This is another one. The country hasn't got the money, and even if it did the money can't be spent on Dublin's infrastructure without spending even more money on vanity projects for the benefit of TDs in the badlands and the boondocks.

So instead we get shiny new plan after shiny new plan intended to divert our attention away from the failure of government agencies to actually get something done - and this is yet another shiny new plan.

It will not happen, but at least while we're waiting for it not to happen we'll all have really interesting debates about the merits and downsides of the shiny new plan.

Vapourware, that's all it is and that's all Dublin will get.

So never build of plan anything ? No dart - no Luas ? I think a decent BRT system that can be rolled out for reasonable cost across Dublin is a great idea - it can be be further upgraded as demand requires .

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

So never build of plan anything ? No dart - no Luas ? I think a decent BRT system that can be rolled out for reasonable cost across Dublin is a great idea - it can be be further upgraded as demand requires .

It's only a good idea if the people promoting it - and those who are meant to fund it - are actually serious about getting it done rather than cat-farting about with political schemes and promises of pie in the sky.

Schadenfreudia

Deleted User wrote: »

It's only a good idea if the people promoting it - and those who are meant to fund it - are actually serious about getting it done rather than cat-farting about with political schemes and promises of pie in the sky.

Indeed. And this multiple BRT plan reeks of a stroke to take peoples minds off DU.

mickmmc

If the sale offer for Aer Lingus is accepted by the shareholders, the government will receive €335 million, which is earmarked for a 'connectivity fund'.

The proceeds of the sale should be used for a light rail project to Swords and not spent on other transport projects around the Country.

cgcsb

mickmmc wrote: »

If the sale offer for Aer Lingus is accepted by the shareholders, the government will receive €335 million, which is earmarked for a 'connectivity fund'.

The proceeds of the sale should be used for a light rail project to Swords and not spent on other transport projects around the Country.

I've no doubt it'll go on pot hole filling and various rural broadband schemes instead in line with successive govt policy against people moving to towns in order to access better services/employment opportunities.

ardmacha

cgcsb wrote: »

I've no doubt it'll go on pot hole filling and various rural broadband schemes instead in line with successive govt policy against people moving to towns in order to access better services/employment opportunities.

And rightly so, government should serve the people where they live, not pursue a Stalinist policy of reorganising them to suit the government.

Schadenfreudia

cgcsb wrote: »

I've no doubt it'll go on pot hole filling and various rural broadband schemes instead in line with successive govt policy against people moving to towns in order to access better services/employment opportunities.

If they'd use slightly more of the road and fuel taxes etc that they collect for vehicle owners there would be no need to raid the Aer Lingus proceeds for public transport.

I believe most of it went to Irish Water in the past two years.

cgcsb

ardmacha wrote: »

And rightly so, government should serve the people where they live, not pursue a Stalinist policy of reorganising them to suit the government.

Most people live in urban areas now and increasingly so. DART Underground could carry the population of entire counties in a single day.